ianwilkins

Can I just say, over here in the UK, plop means something else*, so your mentions of plop camps has been amusing me since I first saw them mentioned in this thread. Thanks for cheering me up!

* let's just say a bodily product that rhymes with "hit".

Ian

Food! One of my favourite things!

I feel quite strongly about getting the kids to cook, most of our lot will disappear off to university come 18, end up in a shared house, meeting up with many of them years later, they often comment on how everyone else made such a fuss of the "house meals" being overwhelmed at cooking for 6 or 8 instead of 1. On most of our camps we've had central catering, with the duty team/patrol cooking for the whole camp, so cooking for 6-8 is easy compared to 30 or 40! Of course, this is usually done in more of a field kitchen than on open fires. We do also try and split them into patrol sized groups and cook on fires too.

I don't know if you have "Ready Steady Cook" on TV in america, in fact, I'm not sure it's on in the UK any more, bit of a daytime special these days, so if you're out at work you'll never see it, anyway, basic premise is two members of the public each bring a bag of ingredients and give them to a pro chef, the chef decides what to cook, then the two of them make it. We often do a similar thing, giving each team a few ingredients, then having staples like pasta rice and potatoes, herbs and spices, various tins of chopped toms, pulses, fresh veg, all there for them to take.

Most bizarre meal that actually worked was one lot did bacon and tuna in a creamy sauce with pasta. Looked fairly grim, tasted pretty good though. Caramel peas I'd be happy to never try again, and I think we may have had to throw away the billy that was cooked in!*

Once I managed to get a chef mate to come along and give them hints and tips as they went along. That was a good night.

We have got into dutch oven cooking a fair bit in our unit, but we like to do it over a fire. There's something great about having your pot hanging from a chain over the fire, it's a good look. Counting out briquettes just seems too clinical, though we did end up doing that on summer camp, as we weren't allowed ground fires.

Also ran practice lightweight hiking stove cooking nights, testing prepacked meals, and making easy but tasty hike meals.

This term they've asked for a curry night. So we'll definitely do that.

One of our lads ended up with an apprenticeship at one of Heston Blumenthal's pubs, has he made it across the pond? Well it wasn't his high science michelin starred stuff, but it was more or less his dream job. Did we light the spark from his time in scouting? I wouldn't like to claim too much credit, but it certainly helped fan the flames for sure.

* No, we did manage to get it clean....eventually

Ian

My explorer scouts love to hammock, mostly. Some have made their own string/rope ones, and those ones always seem to be the ones sleeping on the floor come the morning, I guess the net isn't very even, so while there's no rock lumps, there's dips, hollows, and tight bits all over. This last summer camp we must have had around 15 out of 20 in hammocks. Quite often they double deck them, i.e. two hammocks one about another, then the tarp over the top. I've suggested that in windy and wet conditions this may not be ideal. They know better apparently ;-) They have triple decked them before, and I've had a small hissy fit about what if the top one falls out, as they're about 6/7ft off the ground. Apparently they won't, so that's ok. 

Oh, and I've used them a few times, not brave enough to go the whole hog and use them for a whole weeks camp, but have used them for a variety of weekend camps. I'm a sideways sleeper, and I don't have a problem, I sort of wedge my knees in and it's fine. I did see someone else's set up, and their hammock you got in through a slit underneath, so may be flatter than my one and better for side sleepers. It's weird, it always feels like I don't sleep much, like I went to bed late and you're lying in the hammock wondering exactly when it is you're going to sleep, but I'm always quite refreshed in the morning. I do like the being more in with nature feeling it gives you, you wake up and you're in the trees, it's more open then a tent, obviously.

Probably the best weekend was staying at a friends summer house in Sweden, it was summer, and I would wake about 5am with the bees buzzing across the wild woodland flowers around me, I could reach down and grab a few bilberries to eat off the bushes under the hammock. Happy just lying in the hammock seeing the sun slanting through the trees. The mosquitoes were sods though, so I did have a net for that trip. 

We've bought some from DD hammocks, a UK company, breaking with the H alliteration for hammock company names. 

Ian

As everyone knows, I have a boy-led program, but being a new troop, I have no older boys to teach.  So I teach the basic skills.  It's rather interesting how many of the parent/leaders in the troop who normally sit in the back of the room and talk quietly among themselves will creep up to the group of boys and sit quietly and learn what the boys are being taught.  Some have gone so far as to even ask questions on the topic being taught.  It would seem that the desire to be outdoors is not limited to the boys.

 

That is your pool of future leaders right there. keep fishing, keep baiting the hook, and you should be able to reel the odd one in.

@@ianwilkins or @@Cambridgeskip, what is the gain in male membership? If lots of girls joined but even half as many boys left (which I don't believe is the case), that might influence our opinions.

Ok, I have figures split by gender since 2007....

           2007 Census             2014 Census              Increase 2007-14       % Increase 2007-14

             Male  Female   Total     Male  Female   Total    Male  Female   Total Male Female Total

Beavers    89,455   9,420  98,875  104,173  18,472 122,645  11,697   7,610  19,307 13.08% 80.79% 19.53%

Cubs      120,901  12,952 133,890  128,721  24,654 153,375   7,011   9,961  16,935  5.80% 76.91% 12.65%

Scouts     87,767  14,775 102,542   97,848  26,866 124,714   9,214  10,723  19,937 10.50% 72.58% 19.44%

Explorers  21,634   7,023  28,657   30,461  12,582  43,043   7,235   4,598  11,833 33.44% 65.47% 41.29%

Network     1,164     594   1,758    1,586     789   2,375     300     116     416 25.77% 19.53% 23.66%

It is interesting how this discussion has gone full circle with using girls to add membership to the BSA. If that is what it takes the save the BSA, then the program is doomed anyway.

...

As for comparing against European Scouts, that is a wrong comparison because our cultures are so different. We can't begin to use them as a model for how it would work in North America. And, are they really growing? Who knows.

...

I think we should focus on giving our sons the best program we possibly can and I haven't seen anything convincing that adding girls would give us the present level of performance we have to today. 

 

Barry

Your points in a random order...

And, are they really growing? Who knows.

As it happens, I know about the UK, have kept up to date a spreadsheet of census figures for the last few years. All sections have been growing every year since 2007. It's not massive growth, between 2% and 4%, but that's better than the 5% annual drops we were seeing for the 10 years previous.

I think the crux of the issue is that actually you're right, if you're going co-ed to boost numbers, you're starting off on the wrong foot. I don't remember that scouts in the UK went fully co-ed to boost numbers, they changed the sections and the uniform and the programme at the same time, more or less, so it's all mixed up together.

My personal opinion is that scouting in the UK had got a bit staid, was doing the same things in the same way, and wasn't appealing to as many boys, who didn't want to wear shorts and grey socks with garter tabs and a cap. Scouting had moved from becoming something loads of kids did in the 50s, something normal to a bit odd maybe. Those that enjoyed it enjoyed it, but many dropped out due to peer pressure, and that got worse as it got less cool. I think whether girls do it or not is almost irrelevant.

If you want scouting to grow in the US, and you want it to grow because you believe that the skills and values scouting teaches are still important, then you need it to appeal to more kids, and their parents. I think that's the lesson you can take from the UK. Reading that back it seems obvious, but that's the nub of it.

I run an Explorer Scout Unit in the UK, (aged 14-17) we went on summer camp, and most of the 23 were hammocking, gender becomes irrelevant really, the chance to wake up overlooking a creek, go sailing, poke fires with sticks, cook for themselves, kayak, hike, swim, lie on the jetty and watch for shooting stars, have fun together, that's what appeals. Yes, we've had couples on camp before, chats are had, boundary lines are drawn, and we get on with the fun stuff. That they can mix without the pressure of, say, a school disco, or somewhere else where it's all about coupling up and dating.

Idle random thoughts from me.

Ian

True story. I know a leader who, fed up with lack of support for any fundraising, turned round and said to the parents, you have a choice, join in, or we put the fees up by £30 ($45 ish) a year, or maybe more, and scrap fundraising. They unanimously voted to be chequebook parents. In a way, the leader was deeply saddened at the parents missing the point somewhat, then he thought about all the spare time he'd just made to go do his own hobbies...

Venturing, venturing, venturing. Done with the first lesson.

 

The troop model of parents being the adult leaders just doesn't seem to work with the local venturing crews I know of. They don't have the energy to help with their kids, or their kids don't want them around. Especially with the 18-21 age. I think it needs the 25 to 30 year olds. Isn't that how the British run their units? Some old codger oversight and some young blood might work.

 

The other issue is the maturity and confidence level of the venturing crew. While I'd like to believe Barry, my older scout program is still a work in progress. Some of the scouts are doers, many are followers. If the venturing crew scouts are good, this could help me. If they're mostly in the "I dunno, what do you want to do" phase, then I don't have the time for it. I'm mildly optimistic because the one scout came up to me and asked for help. I'm not sure if there are more.

As someone British, running one of the older sections, since you asked, I'll answer....

Firstly, the age ranges, scouts is 10-14, explorers 14-18, Network 18-25.

I run an explorer unit hands on, and am a manager for the leaders in the other two units in the area, I also know quite a few other explorer leaders. I would say it's a broad church. Some units successfully have the explorers running more or less every weekly meeting. I don't, I can't quite manage it somehow, the time taken to encourage them to be running something, and them to organise it, is time we could be doing something. Wrong and short term of me I know. Also, what do they want to do? What do they think they can do? Stuff they've done before. Then at some point in the future, they complain about things being repetitive.  

I also have close contact with the local network, and as their nominated old codger is often busy, he often just acts as a key holder, letting them into the hall, and watching what unfolds that the network have already planned. So they are very much self led.

The age of leaders for the Explorer section? Well, in our case, I think all of us are over 40, or very close to it, some over 50. I did have one 20 year old who was at the local university for a couple of years, she was great, and I know other units have a younger leadership team, two of my ex-explorer scouts, and queens scouts, have moved away and are now leaders in other explorer units, one's 26, ones 28.

As for parents helping? Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, one of the other leaders had all three of his kids through the unit, another unit in our district all three leaders have kids in the unit, while another, none of the leaders have kids in the unit. It clearly wouldn't work if the kid has a poor relationship with parents, or is rebelling, or something teenagery - some will spend the whole evening chatting happily to me, then grunt when mum picks them up and says "have a good evening?", having her helping for the evening would cramp their style somewhat I reckon.

Your comment about do-ers and followers is very true, the more do-ers you have, the more self led evenings can be run, though sometimes if you only have one do-er, they will get fed up with always being the one that does stuff, my usual response is "welcome to my world". We've had good times when we've had more do-ers, and other times when everyone seems to be waiting for me to do everything. I need to work out how to turn more followers into do-ers!

Ian

Jambo is $2800. The local council "package" was that high for world jambo. Can't roll your own trip.

Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding, but your local council were telling individual scouts they would have to pay seventeen *thousand* dollars to attend the Japan Jamboree? If that's the case...(a) how on earth did they justify that? and (b) no, that doesn't sound like a good value trip at that price at all. Cruel to make it that much for something that they'll only have one chance to go on as a participant.

Not for $17,000. Better way to use my money.

Are you saying the individual fee for participants is $17,000? How on earth does it get so high?

We in the UK were charged about $4500, as a top tier country our Jamboree fees help those from poorer countries go. I'd guess USA is a top tier country too.

Yes, I have my doubts about the Jamboree too, a lot of effort for the few, when we should be providing for the many. On the other hand, it still looks amazing, and I wish I'd gone to the Japan one, and I hope the three we sent had a ball.

Ian

You should see people's faces when the bus pulls up and there's 36 kids/leaders queued up to get on. Only had one grumpy sourpuss (that I noticed) that moved rather than listen to any more of my explorers endless inane chatter, and it wasn't me. Being in our scarves seemed to be a conversation starter if anything. Met some nice people.

It's not something we've done before, but it's certainly something to consider for the future.

Sorry for the slow replies. Been on scout camp.

Hi and Welcome.

Some of my fondest scouting memories are from being a Service Team Member at Walton Firs, back when it was a National Camp Site.

 

It's now an independent campsite for youth groups generally rather than scouting specifically. It got sold off by HQ and in order to get enough grant money to buy it they had to open it up a bit. I go to a few county meetings there. Road noise is probably worse than when you were last there.

Thanks for coming around.

 

A few questions. I know in the UK scouting is integrated with boys and girls mixed. How well does that go? Are there times you have separate events or groups for each gender?

 

On campouts do they share tents? 

 

Also could you post some pictures or provide some pictures of your uniforms and what your campouts look like?

We, and when I say we, I mean, my explorers, rather than speaking for the UK or anything. We never have separate events for boys and girls.

How does having it mixed go? Interesting. Actually, I'd say 99% of the time they're just rubbing along as friends, i.e. they're all just explorer scouts, and gender doesn't really come into it. Occasionally some of the boys show off to impress, usually they get cut down to size by a put down from one of the girls, or another boy. We have had the odd relationship develop, not usually on camp, and that makes future camps when they both go more interesting, but we have just set out some ground rules, and it usually passes by pretty smoothly. I'm generally dealing with sensible intelligent kids so if I treat them sensibly and they seem to respond. And yes, rarely, but sometimes, you do have to lay down the law about exactly what is and what isn't acceptable behaviour. Your mind is possibly filling in more blanks than their are to be filled here. It's tricky to explain. I treat mine like adults, and 99% of adults don't jump into bed and start making babies as soon as look at each other either.

Thanks for the pictures. Your right really if it wasnt for their being girls, many of the pictures would look just like an American Boy Scout troop.

 

Ok, more questions:

 

Do you do merit badges?

What fundraisers do you do to raise money to help pay for activities?

Does your troop have a "sponsor" like a church or community center where you hold your meetings, store your equipment, and in some ways set some rules and guidelines for your troop?

How much does a scout typically pay per year to be a member? How much do they pay for activities?

Is your troop "scout lead" meaning the scouts do many of the activities (planning, organizing, policing themselves) pretty much themselves and the adults serve mostly in an advisory role? Ex. In our troops the scouts will often request all adults leave the meeting room and when we come back they say "we have decided to do ..." and we just often just say "okay".

Do you have a version of the scout oath and law? If so how often do you recite them?

In US troops every morning and evening they do a "flag ceremony" where they raise and lower the US flag (and sometimes the state flags). Do you raise and lower the English flag or other flags every morning and evening to some ceremony at your campouts?

Do you have a version of "high adventure" campouts? Those are particular trips and venues requiring advanced skills or in extreme conditions like deserts, swamps, mountains, or winter conditions.

Would you take your scouts on a multi-day backpacking trip where they would say have to bring all gear and food for a 3-5 day trek?

 

Thanks.

Personally, getting the explorers planning evenings is where I struggle. They don't seem to remember much specifics, so seem to suggest the same things over and over that they've only just done, and then complain that we're doing the same things. Or they enjoyed canoeing last term, so they want to do it again, only it's dark in the winter evenings (and even I'm not crazy enough to go canoeing in the dark). So often it's the leaders organising stuff, and the explorers being part of it. I could do better, and some do do better.

Cost? My unit is £105 (about $150 I think) all camps are on top of that, with weekend camps varying from $30 to $80, and summer camp this year was $375.

Our summer camp this year was not "high adventure", that landscape is a fair distance from where we live. It went as follows:

Saturday, travel by train, train, ferry, bus, bus, short walk, arrive on site and set up

Sunday, scout skills, swimming in a saltwater creek, canoeing

Monday, sailing

Tuesday, seaside and lifeboat (coastguard) station visit

Wednesday, fossil hunt, swimming in the creek

Thursday, day hike

Friday, games, packing, swim/mud fight

Saturday, travel home.

We have got a weekend mountain walking in the autumn, we've also got another weekend where there's discos and a theme park visit (yes yes, Baden Powell spinning in his grave I know), and possibly another staying in a recreated iron age hut, all mud walls wooden beams and thatched roof.

A lot of my kids have done multi day hikes with their schools, and seem to have been put off a bit, so if we do do them, they tend to be shorter more lightweight one. Other units may vary.

Not sure if that answers all your questions, but there you go.

Ian

Welcome, Ian.  Some of your "mates" are already at the campfire here.  Just curious...in the US, we are all mostly volunteers with "day jobs", except for the "professional staff" who run the business of the local Councils.  Are you considered a volunteer or a professional Scouter?  What is your vocation?

We are too also mostly volunteers with day jobs. The "chain of command" is all volunteer too. So my "scout boss" is a volunteer, the District Commissioner, in charge of all the scouts in the district (about 800 inc leaders in our case, this varies hugely). His "scout boss" is a volunteer, the County Commissioner (about 6000 inc leaders, again, varies hugely by county), and so on. The chief commissioner of the UK is a volunteer (basically the boring bits the chief scout used to do until they went down the celeb route), mind you, I've no idea when he actually does any of a day job, if he has one, seems to be scouting full time more or less.

We do have paid employees, our county has a secretary to do admin stuff, and our campsite has staff too, I expect that's common to most counties, depending on size. There is a paid HQ team that do all sorts of things, inc running a phone helpline.

I would say that if you exclude campsite staff, there's probably not more than 500-600 people employed over all.

So, yes, I'm a volunteer, and it's my vocation, but it doesn't pay well, so I'm a java programmer in my other life. 

Ian

Welcome, better late than never.  I hope you post more often than 9 times a year.

I'll "do my best" as they say.

Ian

Hi folks,

Ok, I've posted a few times already, so I'd better introduce myself.

Hi, I'm Ian, and I'm an Explorer Scout Leader in Surrey, England.

Explorer scouts is a mixed gender section for 14-17 year olds. I'm in overall charge of three units of Explorers in our local town (official title "District Explorer Scout Commissioner", but that feels a bit grandiose for little old me), and double up as a leader in one of the units because I don't want to be one of those manager admin people that never sees any kids, I like running things with the kids.

I've been a leader since I aged out of the oldest section, *ahem* some time ago *cough*, with a break for a year or two when I started a family.

As well as being a manager and a leader, I help run an annual national camp for Explorer Scouts which, I admit, isn't the most scouty thing in the world, Theme Park Camp http://themeparkcamp.uk, which does what it says on the tin, with added disco and fire. It brings scouts together from different places, and shows scouting is bigger than their unit, and they love it very much indeed.

Does that all fill my time? Oh yes, but just for kicks I also run Jambowlree http://www.jambowlree.org, the World Scout Ten Pin Bowling Championship. An online unofficial annual competition open to all sections from all countries, that, thanks to this here internet, seems to have taken off somewhat, it seems Australians go bowling to escape the heat, and Canadians to get away from the cold. I'll no doubt mention it properly in another thread somewhere else, and maybe get a few US scouts involved too. 

Not just here to advertise stuff mind you, hoping to be able to chip my 2p in when I can.

Ian

For a little international perspective, in the UK we have "Scouts" which is mixed, but it wasn't ever thus, and "GirlGuiding", which is girls only. The change to mixed scouting, well Ventures (15-21) were mixed from the mid 1970's. If memory serves they made it a local decision (sound familiar?) to go mixed in other sections in the early 2000's, then making it more or less compulsory around 2010.

I was a leader of a Venture Unit at the time other sections went mixed, and there was resistance from some who feared they would have to "girlify" their programme. As far as I know, this hasn't happened, and membership has grown every year since 2002.

Most of Europe is much less uptight about things then we are. Go look at the various international scout camps in Europe, you will see that single gender sleeping arrangements are by "special request".*

 

Note: These coed sleeping arrangements are with larger groups (an entire patrol in one tent). My guess is that European units when using two-person tents like us, go with single gender tenting.

Yes and no. In the UK for example, there's no rules that say boys and girls can't share a tent. Mostly though, it doesn't happen. I've put Explorer Scouts (aged 14-17) in a large tent together, so there's 8 or so in one tent. I know some scout troops who do patrol camping, they all go in together, but most tie themselves in knots with separate tents for girls. Usually I do camp boys and girls separate. Sometimes on hikes I've put the one girl in a team into a tent with two boys, mum said "more fool them (the boys) if they try anything".

A fellow leader went to Sweden in the 80s with Venture Scouts (15-21) and that was all mixed, and normal.

We hosted some portuguese scouts last year, and they wanted separate tents for boys and girls, and one night we were on a ship, they wanted the female leaders in with the female explorers.

Ian