ianwilkins

34 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Technically: oxymoron.

Oh the shame. Corrected in my usage of English by an American. I've let myself down, my family down, and most of all my country. I shall go and write my letter of apology to the Queen forthwith.

10 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Government morality

Non-sequitur of the week award goes to Eagledad. Congratulations!

8 minutes ago, cocomax said:

Last night the rep contacts us and says, "I recruited a whole bunch of girls for you! They will be coming to your round up tomorrow night. Be ready to sign them up!"

So, in our area the district is trying to force girls into boy only packs,  I never read anywhere that was part of the plan.  The lady scouters that lead our pack are very upset, and might throw in the towel just fold the pack. 

 

So, without discussion or agreement they've assumed you are a pack that will accept boy and girl dens?

And I'm assuming you're a pack of boy's dens and it's been agreed that you want to stay a boy's only den pack?

Does your CO have any desire to open a mixed or girls only pack?

I guess the rep will learn pretty fast that making ultimatums to volunteers can backfire somewhat. Or that maybe they shouldn't assume stuff.

That's going to be a pretty unpleasant job, telling the girls that there is no girls pack or mixed pack with you, and they'd need to go find one somewhere else. Pretty unfair of the rep to do that to you.

4 hours ago, Treflienne said:

Actually,  I'd appreciate input from all y'all, not just Barry.

Sometimes it goes wrong. Sometimes whatever's planned doesn't work.

Try to have a plan B up your sleeve.

Ian

In the UK: You have girl scouts now?

[tries hard not to roll eyes] Yes, only for the last 20 years or so (or 40 years for Ventures)

Gosh! Is scouts still going?

16 hours ago, Eagledad said:

It's politically correct to accept the youth at their word these days. But it's courageous to say, we don't want to be part of the complicated situation the youth is struggling through at the moment. 

Barry

That doesn't sit well with me, it doesn't sound like courage but fear. Still, I guess admitting you're afraid can be a brave thing to do. 

I would have thought the brave thing to do would be to "do your best" to "help other people". I guess if from your point of view you are not helping by accepting them as they are then logically "help other people" is what you think you'd be doing by excluding them. I think you're wrong, but hey, mine's just another opinion, worth what you paid for it. All grist to the mill, life's rich pageant, etc etc.

13 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Until tent assignments are considered.

Barry

Hammocks. Hammocks is the answer.

No no, don't mention toilets and showers. 

To be honest, just about anything can be figured out with a bit of compassion and decency. 

2 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I'm saying that by putting volunteers in a position to accept transgender scouts sets possibly sets them up as abusers simply by accepting them.

Barry

Best go full co-ed then. Problem disappears.

On 9/16/2018 at 2:50 PM, Momleader said:

Is there anything wrong with our pack using the yellow if the whole den is outfitted the same?  

We wanted to do a pack cap and neckerchief because parents were unhappy with having to buy new every year. And the necker wouldnhave an addition made to it at the end of the year awards.  When our DE got wind of it she shut it down hard - like with council exec Involvement. (No longer the DE - which is a good thing she wasn’t very nice to the volunteers, emails were not polite)

Tell them to go look at the scout law again. A scout is thrifty.

5 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

My point has always been that accepting transgender scouts put volunteers in a position of possible abuse by encouraging a behavior that could be harmful. 

Barry

Are you saying that scouters should therefore, if you have to accept a transgender child, to actively discourage them from being transgender as it's behaviour that could be harmful? Because doing nothing is accepting what they are, and therefore encouraging, and therefore possibly abuse?

PETA been watching too much Finding Nemo? "Fish are friends not food"

14 hours ago, gblotter said:

This gender-neutral, Euro-version of Scouting may be the future, but it is not for me.

Oi! Don't try and blame us!!

And on a serious note, thank you for your time helping the young men in your care. You've made a positive difference to the world I feel sure.

4 minutes ago, gblotter said:

So if these differences between boys and girls are just a bunch of lies, why then do we see mountains of programs tailored specifically for the needs of girls? Programs promoting girls in STEM, programs promoting girls in leadership, programs promoting girls in academics, programs promoting girls in athletics, - programs promoting girls in every way imaginable. Why all those programs if boys and girls are the same?

But to assert that boys also need their own individualized programs - well, that's just a bunch of lies.

Ummm, because not that long ago girls were taught separately so they could learn to be homemakers, home economics, textiles, sewing, oooh, let's be radical and teach them to type so they could join the typing pool! Sport? Something nice and gentle. Engineering? Oh no, that's a boy subject, not for girls. No need to study hard, your job is to snag yourself a man make babies. All those schemes are just trying to balance things up, so my Explorers won't have to battle against those that say "no, that's just for men that", can become professional kick-boxers, engineers for Rolls-Royce, ski instructors. They're opening up options for girls, not shutting down options for boys, boys have always had "you can do anything" available to them.

17 minutes ago, qwazse said:

What those of us who have experienced coed scouting in any of its forms have generally concluded was that the premise "that boys and girls behave differently, learn, differently, and develop differently" was not sufficiently global and universal as to mandate segregation.

and also, in my experience, while "that boys and girls behave differently, learn, differently, and develop differently" is true, so is it true that boys behave differently learn differently, and develop differently. I mean, in Explorers in the UK the age range is 14-18, we've got some boys at the start that haven't reached puberty some by the end are going steady, and everything in between, some are bright kids that need telling once, some that need telling, showing, telling again, showing again, showing again a different way, etc etc. And the girls are the same. I.e. we, both leaders from boys only sections, and co-ed, have always had to cope with a range of abilities, personalities, intelligence, etc etc. 

This summer I had 42 Explorer scouts on camp from four different units. We split them into patrols. The eldest were the PLs, some were boys, some were girls, the rest of the patrol was a mix of boys and girls. When we went to the beach, they all went for a swim. When we went climbing, they all gave it their all, to the best of their abilities, some of the smaller boys and girls struggled, then again some didn't, a factor of arm strength really, but they all supported each other. They weren't doing a girls climb and a boys climb. No need. When they emptied and cleaned the cattle trough, at one point there were 5 kids in there bathing, three girls at one end, two boys at the other, they managed that all by themselves without leader help. 

Going co-ed isn't the bogeyman it's being made out to be in my opinion, other things like the poor public image of scouting, changing and limiting the programme, losing the patrol method are.

6 minutes ago, gblotter said:

There is no winning with some parents.

too true. And the worst bit is they think they're helping their kids. 

5 minutes ago, gblotter said:

With the passage of time, I'm confident that everyone in BSA will be in support or at least go along with these changes ... because those opposed will leave the movement.

Voila - problem fixed!

Isn't that always the way?

To be honest, most people who don't mind one way or the other wouldn't bother posting about it on an internet forum, so it's always going to tend towards the extremes one way or another.

What I find interesting is the similarity in reactions to when the UK "bet the farm" on including girls, going from only Ventures being mixed to all sections being mixed. In some places, for some troops, it seemed everyone was against it, and in others everyone was for it. It was in pre internet forum days so none of it remains for posterity. I guess leaders of a feather flock together, and in places a vociferous one or two would convince everyone that was unsure or indifferent of the rightness of their opinion. So while in one troop in our town the leaders left en-mass, and the boys were very anti, in another the leaders switched to the new scheme with gusto, and the kids mostly went along with it.

Girls are still very much the minority in UK scouting, but it's them that's driving the growth. The number of boys is static, while the number of girls is increasing. But then again, so much has changed with the programme and the age ranges and all sorts it's impossible to draw conclusions from the numbers.

Like I've said before, good luck, change on this scale is not an easy path.

19 minutes ago, malraux said:

there are times when I feel like the point of this forum is for people to complain.

Bingo!

18 hours ago, Cambridgeskip said:

Eat! Eat everything put in front of you. Not just for the calories but the chance to try food from across the world. You may get a bit fat but it's well worth it!

At the last one I got back reports of having to get up at 6am to get into an hour long queue for breakfast, so yes, the advice to eat whatever you see whenever you see it is good, you won't necessarily know when what and how big the next meal is.

Take earplugs.

I'm not being a negative nelly.

Take earplugs. It'll be noisy of that I have no doubt. You might be working shifts. The tents will be packed close. Someone near you will snore. 

Take some things you can swap with friends you make, badges, scarves.

Make sure your kit will keep you warm/cool/dry for that long. So a comfy sleep mat, the right sleeping bag. Don't expect to have a lot of time to do laundry.

Basically, look after yourself so you can look after others.

Then it's the obvious, a good scout smiles and whistles in all circumstances, as the man said. A friend of mine went to the Swedish Jamboree and went all bright eyed when he talked about the great team he was working with and what a great time they'd had. He was working on refuse collection. For 10 days he was a binman, and loved it, because of the people he met. Basically, throw yourself into it and see what happens. Should be good.

Just now, ianwilkins said:

Take earplugs.

I'm not being a negative nelly.

Take earplugs. It'll be noisy of that I have no doubt. You might be working shifts. The tents will be packed close. Someone near you will snore. 

Take some things you can swap with friends you make, badges, scarves.

Make sure your kit will keep you warm/cool/dry for that long. So a comfy sleep mat, the right sleeping bag. Don't expect to have a lot of time to do laundry.

Basically, look after yourself so you can look after others.

Then it's the obvious, a good scout smiles and whistles in all circumstances, as the man said. A friend of mine went to the Swedish Jamboree and went all bright eyed when he talked about the great team he was working with and what a great time they'd had. He was working on refuse collection. For 10 days he was a binman, and loved it, because of the people he met. Basically, throw yourself into it and see what happens. Should be good.

and don't forget the sunscreen

14 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

My following 2nd thought was the term isn't scout like for a values program.

"conditional scouter" sounds like a term used as a stick to beat people with. The sort of thing that would rile me somewhat I think.

On 8/14/2018 at 11:50 PM, Terasec said:

Thanks for that

i was never a scout so have only preconceived ideas of what cub scouting should be like

scouting is not what i expected it to be at least not scouting via bsa way

am now at a crossroads as to how much to contribute

it is not in my nature to sit back and have others take up the slack

I think it's universally true (ok, you're in the USA, and I'm in the UK but still...) that a den/pack/troop/unit etc etc will lean towards what the leaders finds interesting and/or has the confidence to deliver. That despite the rules the strictures the awards the guidance...every den/pack/troop is different. Birds of a feather flock together. So while your den is all crafts and stem, and has attracted those that like that programme, while another might be more hiking and fishing, or trips out, or whatever. There is room in the programme for variety. And variety is the spice of life. Now, I know I love a good team building game, and another of our leaders is an amatuer engineer, so the number of times we make a parachute for an egg out of paper and string, or spaghetti and marshmallow towers, or paper and sticky tape etc etc is large, while another unit in the same town is off to the buddhist temple, while another is up the park playing a wide game while another is making their own sheath knives. I know a leader in central London that's ended up doing a lightweight cooking evening in a park next to the London Eye but hasn't handed out a badge in years, while others plan for all their cubs to have an armful of badges by the time they leave. They all attract the cubs/scouts that like that approach and those activities. Scouting is a broad church.

What I'm saying is, you sound like a step-up kind of guy. So maybe get in with the den leader on their planning sessions, make a few suggestions of things you could basically run, I don't know, push the open door of crafts and do some basic whittling but out in the woods or something, or ephemeral nature art might be a more open door, or there's a thing in the UK at the moment of painting rocks and leaving them for others to find, and having pushed that open door of craft but outside, then suggest more active things, or outside stem things like water or stomp rockets.

Or start a new den and run it your way

Ian

9 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I hear ya @ParkMan. But this has been happening over a year's time. We have tried tow work with the Scout. but A) The Scout is not even trying to hold up to his end of the agreement, B) dad is encouraging it, C) other scouts in the troop are seeing this and becoming resentful and D) the family mentioned leaving,  not the SM.

....

And this is not the first time they suggested leaving either.

 

Wave goodbye. Try and look sad.

You can't win 'em all.