Eagle94-A1

10 hours ago, Tron said:

LFL is not considered part of the unit based numbers, and unit based numbers are where national counts membership. LFL is like a bonus thing or something (I don't quite get it). 

Learning for Life is not a bonus. LFL is a subsidiary that most councils, at least the ones I have been in and work for, don't want to have, because once established, they need that program to grow as well. I got into major trouble for tryng to convert "In School Scouting" units to LFL groups.

10 hours ago, Tron said:

There are a bunch of lapses because parents are trying to cheat the system for some reason. The whole lapsed period versus expired thing is a nightmare and in this digital age national should just get rid of both and just terminate membership when they expire. 

I don't think they are trying to cheat the system. I think they are tyring to synchronize their Scout's membership renewal with the unit's recharter.

5 hours ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

Of my son's two main activities, he's observed that hard work in basketball comes with improved skill, admiration from peers, and cool looking gear, while hard work in Cub Scouts comes with virtually no added benefits because everyone gets the same awards anyway.

Not just Cubs, and it is worse. I had to talk to Scouts who cared less about Eagle because they know Eagles who honestly didn't earn it. They asked me "What's the purpose if everyone gets it." That was a difficult discussion. They got upset with folks being handed MBs without doing the work they did. Again another difficult discussion. But the one that hit me hard was OA elections. OA meant a lot to me growing up, and I remained active as an adult. Sons even helped me assemble regalia and the drum. None of my sons got interested in the OA. One because he saw folks he knew, and questioned how they got elected. Another was pumped to join, until the Call Out Ceremony, when one of his peers in his former troop, who hated camping and was a trouble maker, got called out with him. He lost all interest in the OA because, "If an honor society will let him in, it is not a big deal." Youngest was never interested because of his brothers' experiences. Which was good because the chapter would not stop to do unit elections after 3 years of asking for them. 

3 hours ago, DuctTape said:

The pressure from sports to be "100% committed to the team" starts to manifest as kids move into Middle School. The same happens with the school play, and most other extra-curriculars. The adults in charge exert the pressure b/c it is more difficult for them to run their program with inconsistent attendance. Just like scouting is more of a hassle with inconsistent attendance. Best way for Scouts to address this is to focus on patrol activities, encourage highly active scouts (those who are 90-100%) to create their own patrol and plan/do stuff together. This high functioning patrol can act as the model for all the others. 

I know in some parts of the country, HS extracurriculars are also graded. I know at the HS I went to,  your PE class was based on the sports you played. The practices and games in season counted as class, and the scheduled class period was mandatory study hall. Miss a practice or game, there went your grade. Band had it worse as they had to attend practices, games, competitions, and parades. Depending on the time of year, their music class was more practice, and not study hall. Ditto with missing something, because it affected your grade.

16 hours ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

Since we're still in the Scouts vs. Sports thread: I was recently provided a list of possible summer camp dates for my 3rd grader, and I (as a Den Leader) couldn't commit to any of them until basketball camp schedules come out. My son is on the top team, but probably only the 6th or 7th best player in his grade. He risks being bumped to the B-Team next year if organizers don't think we take basketball seriously in the offseason. Would he probably be OK if he missed a week of basketball for Scout Camp? Yes. Is he good enough that he wants to risk it? No. There is a definite FOMO / scarcity element to youth sports.

That is part of the problem. Sports tend to want your entire life to revolve around the sport, and nothing else. Or there will be consequences. I still remember when the martial arts dojo sprang a last minute weekend seminar with 4 days notice. Happened to be the same weekend an aunt from out of town was visiting.  The owners expected my kids to attend the last minute weekend seminar instead of the activities we had planned with their aunt. The next  session after the weekend seminar, all those who didn't attend were chewed out. And when it came time to spar, those who attended were being encouraged to beat the crap out of those who didn't attend.  When I talk to parents of kids involved in sports, all  I hear is how their lives are completely turned around and focused on that sport: school team, travel leagues, camps, workshops, etc.

Scouting doesn't have that mentality. I think some folks want  the low advancement standards so their child can get eagle and move on to focus on sports.

Sorry for the disjointedness. dealing with issues.

Training is horrible, and adults do not know vital skills. How can you expect a good program if you cannot do the basics?

Many units focus on advancement, a left over from Cub Scouts IMHO. And part of that is WDLs have not been getting the training they need on transitioning from Cubs to Scouts. And they keep on doing what they have been trained. Additionally advancement standards have indeed dropped, despite what folks say. When a Life Scout cannot do basic T-2-1 first aid, that is a problem. And if you try to have standards, you get complaints of adding to requirements or gatekeeping, and told they need to quit. Some folks quit. And some just focus on their units.

As for professionals, the training I went through as a pro didn't cover programming, just the "3 Ms": Money, Membership, and Manpower. Yes, I had to have SM Fundamentals, Cub Scout Basic Leader Training, and Explorer Leader Basic (either the full class or self study course with advisor) in order to be a DE. But that was so that we could understand the programs we were working for. And I am told today's DEs not only getting less topics covered in training, but also are NOT required to have any of the program basic trainings done completed prior to professional training.. So very few pros have the abilties to run programs.

13 hours ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

So, despite a few strong programs in every area, unit programming seems to be lacking.

I suggested more council / district events run by professionals and experienced volunteers, but everyone's experience there indicates those are also hit and miss.

Training sucks. There is no denying it. Standards have dropped to the point they are almost nonexistant, and if you try to keep some, you are told you are gatekeeping or adding to requirements. Folks with knowledge, skills, abilities, and experience are being told they don't know what they are doing, they need to quit, etc. they are getting fed up and quitting.

As far as professionals go, very, very few have what it takes to run programs. Most are just out of college and trying to pay off loans.

more later.

2 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

So, my gut tells me the 837K number is low.  If accurate, it would mean a loss 40K Scouts since end of 2025. (Another loss of 4.56% of membership.) 

Many councils have December 31st as the last day of a unit's charter year. That is so that those units that fold, and members that drop, are considered in the end of year tally. The 837,145 number is probably correct.

Historically, the end of year numbers have always come out in March, as they have had rechartering issues in the past too. I remember one pack that had paperwork issues, was "dropped," and then reappear with their membership numbers magically added to the end of year numbers once the charter was completed.

I hope I am wrong, but I do not think we will reach 975,672 (2% growth) for 2025 when everything is said and done. I do not think we will suddenly find 68,534 members.

I was invited to teach a MB at an MBU. Told them point blank it would be a partial. Sent out email telling Scouts in the class what things they could do before the MBU to get the MB. I got a lot of complaints, and was never asked back.

Irony was it was Indian Lore MB, and i had a full blood Lakota stationed at the air base "auditing" my class. I got a lot of praise from her for what we went over. Too bad she wasn't in the session with the smart aleck who asked "which is more violent, Rugby or Lacrosse" My response was "While rugby is a thug sport played by gentlemen, and rugby's unofficial motto is 'Give Blood, Play Rugby,' no one ever was enslaved or executed for losing a game of rugby whereas in some versions of lacrosse losers were enslaved or ritually sacrificed. So Lacrosse is the more violent of the two."  Shut him down the rest of the class.

14 hours ago, Tron said:

I think a lot of new leaders really need to take all of the training (like SM & committee & COR & etc ... ) to get a real good picture of how a troop should run. There is also the issue of the training doesn't quite line up with reality due to a lot of leaders just doing their own thing; which in turn confuses new leaders. 

It also bothers me that NONE, absolutely NONE of the online training ever mentions any of the troop leader guides. 

Here is the irony, he is fully trained and is scheduled to go to WB in the near future.

1 hour ago, PACAN said:

Can we split this topic into the two things people are posting about?

Yes

1 hour ago, PACAN said:

my friend sent me numbers for December.  Total membership around 877k.

To quote the grandfather in  PRINCESS BRIDE, "Wait, just wait." The "official" December 2025 number will be out in a few weeks. Still we are down from last year 

So I attended my first event today with the new troop. The SM is "trained," but admitted he doesn't consider himself "trained," and is glad I am joining the troop. We started talking, and from the discussion,  I realized a lot of info was left out of the online training.  We are trying to recruit new Scouters, and I have a feeling I will be doing some informal training with them on camp outs.

17 hours ago, Tron said:

Yeah yeah yeah; you found it right? You found one of the gray areas. You have to be careful, there is so much gray area; this stuff doesn't mix well with 22 year old professional scouters just trying to not get fired while they pay off their college loans. 

I resembled that remark.

Do not know if this happens in sports still, know it does with music, but the activity is a grade, you don't make practice, attend a game, etc and you lose points off your grade. For example, all the football players tended to have the same PE class. However during season, practice and games was the PE class, and that period was used as a mandatory study hall for the player. Ditto other sports. Band would get a study period for major activities only.

Something on my newsfeed.

https://sports.yahoo.com/articles/soaring-price-youth-sports-50-174913819.html

Circa 2012 to 2014.

17 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

It is always best to go to the source:

https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/2026-NCAP-Standards-v2.pdf

Standard number SA-001, pages 25 - 29.

 

I see now that day camp is at least 2 days now.  when NCAP started, that wasn't the case, and a district single day activity, like PWD, had to follow NCAP.

58 minutes ago, swilliams said:

How are you doing $25 with no Troop dues?

My old troop had 1 fundraiser a year. Every Scout had a goal to sell x number of plates. Paid for all advancement, weekend campouts (except food, $ varied by patrol) and depending upon the year 50% to 100% of summer camp. Before National skyrocketed the dues, also paid that and Boy's Life.

Depending upon where you are at, you can get by cheaply, especially backpacking. One national forest nearby has no fees for backpackers. One state park charges only for parking if you are backpacking. One place we went biking cost us $100 for everyone for the weekend. That was less than $10/person.

Key is willingness to explore new places. 

3 hours ago, Tron said:

This is a lot, a lot of good thought. I am not sure if the program can function this way. In order to master skills the instructors have to know the skills that they are teaching otherwise the youth are set up for failure before things begin. How can adult leaders model the program for the youth leaders and pass on the skills for the older scouts to teach younger scouts when so few adult leaders know the skills. Scouting America knows this is a problem but is moving far too slow (BSA Fishing, NRA Partnership, LNT Partnership, etc ... bringing in outside experts to rejuvenate the skills base).

Very true, adults cannot model the skills because they have no training or experience. And the powers that be think online learning is enough. Bill Hillcourt said it best " SCOUTING IS OUTING!"

But I am leery of outside certifications. I remember when LNT Trainer was a Scout POR that required LNT Trainer certification, but most places offering it wanted you to be 18+.

And to be honest even going through training is not enough. I went through Aquatics Supervision Paddle Sports training, and am certified to teach paddle board to Scouts. Just because I am certified, doesn't mean I have the knowledge or skills to do it. 2 to 3 hours on a paddle board was not enough time, especially with my balance to master those skills. Give me a canoes or kayak any day.

3 hours ago, Tron said:

So much of the training is poorly done. The training should be based on a level 1 (online) training with level 2 (in person) practical demonstrations. IOLS and BALOO are garbage. They should literally be several hours of online modules followed up by a simple 12 hour overnight testing experience. Enforcement of training needs to become mandatory; national needs to start dropping people from the rolls after 90 days of not being trained. 

Once upon a time, national allowed a test out of IOLS. You had to demonstrate ALL of the skills, and if you missed one, you had to take the course. That lasted a year or two because some folks were just pencil whipping the training. Which considering the standard of one and done, pencil whipping is the norm from national.

3 hours ago, Tron said:

The commissioner corps is broken; not because of anything the commissioners have done, but for what the professional scouters have failed to do. If a district has a commissioner reporting that a unit has sub standard adult training, sub standard program, etc ... it's the district executives role to step in and start doing unit visits to determine if the commissioner is a moron or if the unit needs to have its charter revoked. 

Unfortunately pros are judged by the number of units they have, even if they are substandard. So there is a LOT of pressure on them. I tried to focus on quality, not quantity, and my boss gave me hell for it. And trust me pros cannot remove unit leaders. When I was a DE, we had a pack that had extremely poor leadership. I could recruit 30 Scouts for them, and 5 would remain. The #1 complaint was the CM, they needed to be removed. I had a chat with the COR/IH, who was an involved Scouter. But even he was unwilling to remove them because he had no idea who to replace them with.

As for unit visits, I can tell you I had one unit I started having a lot, and I mean a lot, of challenges. I was doing my best to help them out by basically serving as their commissioner as we did not have a commissioner corps ( that is another story). My boss chewed me a new one for helping the unit out.  I got around that by visiting them as a member of their CO, the service organization that I belong to.

Until national wants quality over quantity, we will continue circling the drain.  

3 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

NCAP does not cover day events. Day Camp? Yes. Day activities? No. Hasn't in the last 8 years I have been involved. It covers: day camps (2 days or longer using council retained leadership), long term camp (4 nights or more with council retained leadership), and short term camp (1-3 nights with council retained leadership / program). It does not cover a day event. It hasn't. No change in 8 years.

Gotcha. It has been so long since I had to deal with NCAP, I can't remember what year it was. I do know all three of my kids were Cubs, so it was over, 10 years ago, and closer to 16. I know my council was ticked off with me for doing the inspection necessary because the camp was a D+ or C- grade.

3 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

Camping event, not day event. I may have missed the first comment, but I wanted to point that out. 

Unless things have changed, NCAP also covers day activities.

10 hours ago, Tron said:

If it is not an NCAP governed event it falls on whomever "the lead" is or the council program chair/camping chair/director of field operations/<insert one of the various titles given out council-to-council>.

Everything fall under NCAP now if it is a district/council event. And officially that is anytime you have units from 2 or more COs.

10 hours ago, Tron said:

It turned out that the DE was not trained because it's in that level 2 training (which btw these days is not automatic, a DE has to be recommended for it after serving no less than 2 years). 

Even in my day, Professional Development Level 2 was not automatic, because it was not required to be a DE like PDL-1 was. In fact i know of only 2 DEs of the 12 I worked with having completed PDL-2. One completed years earlier, and one somehow got a two week, all expenses paid trip for PDL-2 and an Exploring Conference at  FL Sea Base in January.

My thoughts,

1. BSA's standards for Scouts BSA have dropped. Once upon a time the standards were "Master the skills," and "The badge represents what a Scout CAN DO (sic), not what he has done."  Today its is "A badge recognizes what a Scout has done toward achieving the primary goal of personal growth...  It is thus more about the learning experience than it is about the specific skills learned. "

Best example of this is the "First Class Camp" After doing all the basic Scoutcraft requirements, they needed to lead a campout for a minimum of 24 hours with at least 1 other Scout without and adult.  Nowadays 2 adults over 21 are needed.

A lot of folks I know complain about the new standard. And we see what "One and Done" is doing to the program. When you have a Life Scout, with their Eagle Board of Review scheduled, can not do basic T-2-1 first aid, let alone First Aid Merit Badge requirements,  there is a problem.

2 Adult training is a joke. I had scheduled and was prepping a CS Basic Leader Training course when the CS Leader Specific Training courses came out. I cannot tell you how much information was left out, especially at the Webelos level. We did CS Specific, but added a lot from the old CSBLT that was missing. Ditto with ITOLS.. I supplemented a bunch of material from older BSHBs and Field Books, to make sure they got the info they needed. And they have watered down the syllabus since I taught it.

3. There use to have experienced folks called commissioners to help units out. Problem is that they had no authority to  enforce stuff, and insure a quality program. Worse is when you have new folks telling commissioners they don't know anything about the program and they need to butt out, or Scouting needs to change with the times and their ideas are better. Very discouraging and makes folks not want to help.

4.National and councils seems to be focused on advancement, not program. How many Scouts you see with all the MBs? How many councils have summer camps that give away MBs or have MBUs that are essentially MB giveaways?

Sadly that is what the majority of parents want today: quick and easy advancement. They do not care if their Scouts actually know anything. They do not care if their Scouts have adventures and fun, they care about 1 thing: getting Eagle.

Some who know Eagle should mean something see this and ask themselves "why bother?" Others are fighting tooth an nail to stop the degradation. However we are getting fewer and fewer.

10 hours ago, Tron said:

National waits until a DE is level 2 trained to train them on how to recruit a volunteer district staff. This is a volunteer run organization; the #1 thing every DE should do is know how to identify and recruit volunteers to run their district. 

WHAT?!?! Please tell me you are joking. That was a significant part of PDL-1 back in the day. Everything from creating a list of prospects, figuring who to go with you to the prospect, how to dress when approaching the prospect, etc. While we use a nominating committee to get names, DEs were also supposed to come up with names for the nominating committee as well. And if you didn't have a nominating committee....

10 hours ago, Tron said:

I think the training for cub scout volunteers needs to emphasis multiple troop visits to a much larger degree.

Training, as well as the current program, needs to look at the 1990s changes to the program, and readjust. When Cub Scouts was a 3 year program, and Webelos was 9-12 months, Cross Over couldn't happen until May. Problems included  1. not enough time learning AND accepting differences in the programs, not enough time to visit troops,  and not enough time to prepare new Scouts for Summer Camp. I know all about summer camp, because I missed out my first summer. My parents didn't know the troop's leaders well enough, nor could they pay the $75 fee (today's value is $230) in one month.

That is why after adding Tiger Cubs, they also dropped the ages to join, and expanded Webelos to 18-24 months instead of 9-12. It gave more time the transition process. 

More Later

10 hours ago, Tron said:

 

 

 

 

Not just multiple visits to 1 troop, but multiple troops. As Eagle94 says the program loses a lot of crossovers; in my experience it's in two stages. Stage 1 we plain have scouts just not want to go to a troop because they didn't find a troop they liked (My pack is still sorting this out but it looks like we just lost 5 of 7 AOLs on Dec 31st, they didn't bother to renew because the pack did 2 troop visits this year (versus 7 last year) and the AOLs and families were not interested in either troop.). Stage 2 we lose crossovers at troops who never rank up past AOL before end of year/renewal (my troop just lost somewhere between 6 to 8 crossovers, we're still sorting out if some families didn't renew on time; however, those 6 to 8 have the same thing in common, they were all AOL on Dec 31st).  To be clear lack of advancement or recognition is a big deal for these crossovers and I think we lost one of them because the CC was his MBC for a MB and ghosted the kid on a MB he completed. I tried to step in because I also MBC that MB and I got ghosted by the CC. (See the other thread where I complain about fiefdoms and not delivering.)

33 minutes ago, jcousino said:

I must agree that adult training is a joke. The few DEs I knew well enough to talk honestly, their training was just as bad. Ask one about a YPT question, and his answer is that it is coming in level 2 training.

Regarding training, I was appalled at what was left out of CS Leader Specific, especially the Webelos Den Leader Specific, compared to the old CS Basic Leader Training. There is no mention of the differences between being a CSDL, and being a WDL, and how the transision is suppose to go. I beleive that the retention rates for Crossed Over Scouts is for this very reason, and national has doubled down on it, making the transition a few months in 5th grade, instead of the 18-24 months. BSA did the research once, and it stated transition takes 18-24 months.

Regarding DE training, WOW. Prior to going to PDL-1, we had to have YPT, CSBLT, SM Fundamentals, and Explorer Basic Leader Training. Additional YP stuff was covered, but it was mostly a reemphasis of get the Scout to safety, call the SE, call the police.

11 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

The 01 Jan 2026 number is real time... today's number.

The Jan 2025 number looks to be the close out number for 31 Jan 2025.

Thank for the correction. You are right, it is end of month, June 30th, and Dec. 31st.