Eagle94-A1

16 minutes ago, Tron said:

I always wondered why large troops didn't run their own summer camp. 5 days, 5 to 10 different merit badges. Lower costs, more flexibility in scheduling, less wasted time just running around. 

Biggest drawback is time prep. We did our own summer camp during COVID, and although I was an essential worker and had to go in to work, I had a lot more time to create a program. I do not think I could do the same thing now.

Plus most  of the adults are now focused on advancement and MBs, and not adventure. And this attitude has gone down to the Scouts. I have 2 scouts whose last summer camp will be 2026. One of them's attitude is the same as their parent's: they have all the MBS they need for Eagle and do not need to go to summer camp.  The previous SM and I had to talk about HA activities at various camps. neither the Scout nor their parent realized they could do those activities. 

Funny thing is the ones who went to COVID CAMP said it was the best summer camp ever, but would not want to do it again. When asked why, they said no MBs. Even though every activity was part of a MB, and several MBs were started.

27 minutes ago, Tron said:

My experience is that CORs are not engaged; they don't have their training done, none know that they are voting members of the district and council by virtue of their position. DE's and DC's do not engage the CORS because they don't want to lose control of the narrative or agenda. 

Absolutely correct. Especially when camps are up for sale.

28 minutes ago, Tron said:

I would add to this that professional staffers making arbitrary decisions or attempting to micro manage has pushed so many good volunteers in my council out into the cold. 

Understatement. Same thing has happened in my council. Now some districts have less than 30% of the district positions staffed. 

28 minutes ago, Tron said:

I always wonder about the stupidity or ego of these 20 something DE"s that they think their method is going to be better than 115 years of refined experienced BSA policy. 

It is not stupidity or ego, rather it is their superiors pressuring them to get agreeable, or as one SE called them "Pro-Council" committee members instead of the best possible choices. At least when I went thru the DE training, they taught us the right way, and would not talk about how folks are being told to do it. So the problem is known. 

7 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

I always wondered why we wouldn't look to either 20-30 year old ex scouts or 55+ year old aging scouters to fill District roles (basically avoiding parents of scout aged kids).  In my area, most District roles are filled by unit volunteers, burning them out or having them choose between helping their unit or helping the District.

20 year olds cannot  serve in the district role per National. And as a 21-24 year old district committee member, I can tell you from first hand experience some Scouters viewed me as "just a kid, " 'you do not know anything because..." no knots, no beds, no SM patch, ad nauseam.

7 hours ago, ramanous said:

I may have proposed the question wrong. If the units are complaining about lack of district support, yet all of the district committee members are from the units. In other words, they are complaining about the lack of support that is of their own doing. 

No, we are not complaining about lack of support from district committee members, we are complaining about the treatment by pros, which causes folks to not want to be involved at the district level at all. In my district's situation, the large majority of positions are vacant because no one wants to deal with the issues mentioned above.

On thing I forgot earlier Pros need to be TRUSTWORTHY, and. not lie abut why things are being done, or not being done. Best example I can give is the council being told one reason things are being done, and the unit and district volunteers a different reason why things are being done.

6 hours ago, ramanous said:

How are your district people selected? Who is nominating your members-at-large? Who is appointing members of your nominating committee? I speculate the most innocuous reason is due to limited social networks. More egregious reasons are egos, gatekeeping and controlling district resources.

Do you want how it is supposed to be done, how the Pros want it done, or how it is done in reality, at least in my experience with multiple councils?

The nominating committee is suppose to look at who is the best person for the job recruit them, and have the district committee vote EN BANC (emphasis) as a slate of officers. There are no choices for each position, and committee member selection can be rigged.

The Pros want a nominating committee who will put people in positions so that they will do exactly what the Pros want them to do with no questioning. When I was a DE, my SE told me point blank to only select folks who can follow directions, and not necessarily the best person for each job.

In reality it is whomever is willing to do the work gets the job, regardless if they are capable or not. 

1 hour ago, ramanous said:

The district and council committee is primary comprised on the CORs of the units. And, at least in my limited experience, the members-at-large are all unit adults.

How many CORs are actually active on the district and council level? In my long experience, I only know of two. One was a former SM. The other was already active on the district level, and elected District Chairman when he was "appointed to be the COR. The members-at-large are usually the ones doing the actual work.

1 hour ago, ramanous said:

So, when the unit says the district doesn't support them, how do you flip that around? 

1. Pros should not ignore the unit Scouters when they need help. Listen to them as they are the heart and soul of the program. Without volunteers, you cannot have the program to recruit members. They know what works and what doesn't. While some have been Scouters a short time, others have years, even decades, of experience.

2. Pros need listen to your district level Scouters as they tend to have a lot more knowledge, skills, and experience than the pros do, especially in the service area. While Pros can stay 3-5 years in an assignment, in my neck of the  wood the average 9 months. One DE left in under 30 days.

3. Do not second guess, over rule, etc the volunteers when they are assigned something to do. Best example is volunteer who was "voluntold" he was running a district camporee with 7 weeks notice because the camporee chief quit (see 4 below). Pro didn't interfere that year and it was a successful camporee. Volunteer agreed to do the following year. The Pros interfered so much it caused major headaches for the volunteer, and the event to go overbudget. Supplies were not ordered,  so  those supplies had to purchased locally at a higher cost. Camp got triple booked over the objections of the two folks running ITOLS and the camporee. This caused the campwide compass course to be redone hours before opening, and additional supplies not budgeted to deal with the anticipated parking issues and to designate the Cub area from the Scout areas. And I can go on and on about the interference. That volunteer promised to never run another district event ever again.

4. Pros need to remember "a Scout is Courteous."  They should not yell, berate, and curse out volunteers. Especially ones who are also business leaders in the community. Not only will folks willing to volunteer dry up, but also FOS dollars will as well. Some long time businesses donors heard about these things, and stopped giving.

More later

40 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Unless BSA has trained professionals leading every Troop you will see a wide variety of quality. 

As a former pro, I can tell you even with professionals leading every troop, the quality will vary.

22 hours ago, ramanous said:

I'm dealing with a few troops now how have isolated themselves from the district. I understand that you cannot force a troop to participate in district and council events, but too me, this should be a red flag. 

Yes it is a red flag, one that says the council is not supporting the units, at least in my experience with 2 different councils. 

Districts and councils are there to support the unit, not the other way around. If a unit is in need of help from the district/council, and is constantly being ignored, the unit will start isolating themselves.

If unit leaders work to put on events, and  do not get the support they need to run the event, get  overruled on things, or the event is cancelled last minute despite everything being in place and ready to go, but the "budget surplus" is not being met, then units will start isolating themselves.

If a unit attends their council summer camp, and it is an absolute Charley Foxtrot;  with the suggestions and recommendations to improve  the camp and its program are ignored, then you will have units doing their own thing.

The irony in my experience is that the leaders of these units were usually some of the most active, pro council volunteers. In one council I was in, the units in question had former district committee members, Silver Beavers and OA Vigils in them. They were accused of being "Council Kool Aid Drinkers ( I know, Jim Jones used Flavor Aid), because they were at one time so supportive of council. Ditto on the second council I have seen this occur.

18 hours ago, SSScout said:

 Make her a ASM WITH TRAINING...

I would be EXTREMELY leery about this. Sometimes that is all it takes. But most of the time it takes that PLUS mentoring. And I have seen cases where folks took the training, thought they knew better, and ignored any mentoring to get them up to speed.

19 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Even at a full sprint, joining to Eagle takes 19 months:...

I have never seen it done that quickly.  The fastest I have seen it happen is a young lady who, already having her Venturing Summit Award, Congressional Award Gold Medal, and GS Silver Award, joined a Troop at 16 years old (under the waiver), and completed in 20 months to become one of the Inaugural Class of female Eagle Scouts.  

Kayn Hourbacker got it at 11. He joined at 10 years old, and did it in exactly 19 months.  

Then there is this girl at 12. 

I question how much they really know.

I met one Eagle who got it at 13 that I can say knew their stuff. He was also pushed by his Eagle And Explorer Ranger Award dad ( OK I screwed up, I called the dad a Gold award recipient all these years because Ranger ended in 1949. But I recently found out that if you started it before 1949, you got to finish it until 1951.) Here is the deal though, he quit immediately after getting it. No HA trips, jamborees, OA, nothing.

Thanks for the updated stats.  

You are correct.. Don't ask about recruiting outside of school round ups and talks. We do them, and most boys interested in what we do are already in Scouts. And those troop are catching on to focusing on adventure, not advancement. I have recruited more girls for the girls troop. One Girl Scout said she wished her GSUSA troop would do some of the stuff we do. When I mentioned the girls troop she said, " My mom would kill me. She works for the Girl Scouts."

10 hours ago, Tron said:

Not running the program is what kills troops, every time. When the district committee does a postmortem on a unit that surrenders it's charter it is literally the exact same thing every time: Not running the program, which leads to scouts not advancing, which leads to them quitting or transferring out, which leads to structural imbalance in age distribution, which becomes a red flag to crossover families, whom then go somewhere else. 

Depends upon circumstances. My unit follows the program, retains Scouts, even long after they earn Eagle in some cases. We have an active program that the Scouts pick. Adults do not force them to do an activity they do not want to do.  But we have no feeder pack, and have not in at least 15 years. Troop always had transfers into it. Out of the 7 on my charter, 5 transferred from other troops, and 1 had his older brothers transfer into it.  And the troop has survived by having an active, Scout-led program since before I transferred 7 years ago. I cannot find the stat now, but last time I checked 90+% of Scouts move up from Cub Scouts. And usually troops die within 6 years of packs folding.  The other troop without a pack has not had one in 5 years, and they may be folding. The 2 troops with packs have wised up, and started imitating us. Not only do they jealously guard their Cub Scout packs, they are now retaining their Scouts. One of those troops, is the one I transferred from. I almost had 1/2 the troop transfer with me, until the COR stepped in.

And in my neck of the woods, lack of Cub Scout recruiting is the #1 reason units are folding.

17 hours ago, Tron said:

We know that in any given 18 month period national wants us to provide a program that provides the opportunity for a scout to get from nothing to 1st class rank and star soon thereafter; so everything for scout through 1st class has to get covered at some point in any given 18 month period.

You do know that the research for "OPERATION FIRST CLASS," "First Class, First Year," or whatever it is called now is deeply flawed?

The research was done in the 1980s, and the idea came out in August 1989. That's  when they did away with Skill Awards, time requirements for Tenderfoor, Second Class, and First Class, and went from "Master the Skills," to "The Badge represents what a Scout CAN DO (SIC), not what he has done." mentality which IMHO leads to "One and Done."

Research showed that Scouts who got First Class in 18 months stay around longer, which is true. BUT what was not included in the stats was 2 things: 1.How active a unit is and 2. LDS units.

The more active a troop is, doing the activities the Scouts want to do, will lead to  retention. Yes advancement is slower, but those Scouts stick around longer. Best example is my soon to be 21 y.o. ASM.  He spent 4 years working on First Class as the swimming requirement was the issue. But the troop dis activities he liked, and he stuck around. He eventually passed the swim test, and earned Eagle. He has stuck around as much as possible while in college.  And all of my Eagles have stuck around until 18, or until they started college. Why? Because we are active and do the activities they want to do. But  the surveyors dis not show how active a troop was in their results.  

The LDS units would segregate their 11 year old Scouts. I have seen lesson plans where the 11 year old patrol would repeat the same program every year. They were treated as if they were still Cub Scouts, with an ASM serving more as a DL, and TGs acting more like  den chiefs. Their program guaranteed them First Class in one year. One reason why LDS units got upset when the Camping requirement for First Class  went from 4 camp outs to 6 campouts in 2016: their 11 year olds were not allowed to camp more than 4 times /year.  And their protest changed it back to 4 (aside this ticked off my middle son as he had to wait 2 months to get the 6 campouts in, and right as he goes for his First Class BOR, National changed it back to 4. He was ticked off) And since the LDS used Scouting as their youth program, ALL (emphasis) males were registered in their troops, whether they were active or not. That skewed the data.

So do not take the First Class, First Year to seriously. If you push it, you will have Scouts get bored, note care, leave, or stick around long enough to get Eagle and then quit. I have seen this happen with a lot over the years.

That is pretty much what happened in the UK when their program went coed. Sure you could have all male, all female, and coed troops. But over time the all the single gender units died out any only all female exist today. Or so I am told.  

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Your source have any intel on when this might happen?  We have a Philmont contingent next summer, and will need to forecast, if impacted.

He said next year, but if the word has not happened yet, it may be 2027 before going into effect since many crews are already set.

2 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Trained youth can meet the quota, no?? 

My source said no. All 4 adults must have WFA when it goes into effect.

7 minutes ago, Tron said:

This is sort of 3 now for high adventure now that high adventure requires 3 wilderness first aid and CPR qualified participants. 

To quote the grandfather in The Princess Bride, "Wait, just wait."

I was informed that the number of adults will soon be 4. Apparently the number of adults not qualifying at check in, or needing evac on the trek is over 1/3. One of my Scouters plans on staffing next year, and that is what he was told.

On 8/18/2025 at 10:00 AM, fred8033 said:

#2 ... Question ... Can patrols still do non-camping activities without adult supervision?  Go to the movies?  Bowl?  Socialize?  Go to a state fair?  I've been out for a few years now, but we always encouraged patrols to have a "patrol" activities and it was never overseen / reviewed by troop leadership.  

Since September/October 2018, ALL (major emphasis) Scouting activities, including patrol day activities, requires 2 registered adults over 21. They tried to make it go into effect in March, but a lot of units with summer camp and HA plans with only 1 adult over 21 and 1 adult over 18 pushed back on it. One of the few times National listened to their volunteers. But I bet all those units wanting refunds was why.

Hopefully the donors, or their trustees/descendants, will not sign over deeds outright. We had that happen, and the camp got sold. And not a thing we could do about it to stop the sale.

2 hours ago, Tron said:

I've volunteered with troops running all sorts of patrol structures and I least like the fully mixed age patrols at this point. They always seem to devolve into a process where the patrol leaders and troop leadership regardless of ability or likeability become the troop elected leadership and the younger scouts become second class citizens who have to ride the back bench and do their time regardless of capability.

As I have mentioned, I have been around NSPs since they were an experiment. Every time the NSP has been tried with a troop I was involved in, it either exhausted the TG, or it turned into Webelos 3 with adults interfering. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. (major emphasis).  And every single troop has gone to Traditional Patrols. Including the troop that had one NSP that could keep up with the older Scouts because the initial group began the transition in 4th grade. That was the closest to a successful NSP. The problem came when the other pack crossed over their Scouts, and they were not ready at all. They did not focus on transition until 1 month before AOL and Cross Over ceremonies. 

When has BSA in recent history ever not allowed a pilot program go all out?

This decision has been made by the pros, and I bet Oct. is the next time the volunteers meet to rubber stamp the decision.

On 8/8/2025 at 4:08 PM, Tron said:

Support from the council is one of those weird things. The council is the volunteers; there is no one to help if no one is staffing those district and council committees. If your time at the troop is sunsetting, and if the troop is folding, it might be time to consider a district role.

I was involved at the district and council levels for a very long time in several capacities, sometime 2 at the same time. I also servedwith a pack and district committee at the same time. I had to step back from district and council roles when oldest joined a troop, and I was with the pack and the troop. Even then I got Shanghaied onto the district committee when at a RT I was told I was running camporee with 2 months notice. So I did 14 months in that role and ran 2 camporees. But the pros caused a lot of problems. You can read about them in other threads.

While "the council is the volunteers," the professionals, through their actions, can tick off the volunteers. Ticking off volunteers will lead to  not having any volunteers to help on the district or council level.

On 8/8/2025 at 4:08 PM, Tron said:

Support from the council is one of those weird things. The council is the volunteers; there is no one to help if no one is staffing those district and council committees. If your time at the troop is sunsetting, and if the troop is folding, it might be time to consider a district role.

I have stepped back from all council and district positions to focus on the troop. What ticks me off is that I had done so much to help the council in the past when I was able, but now when I need help because I an not able,  I am on my own.

On another note, this past weekend will probably be the last weekend when all my registered Scouts, "adult participants," and 20 y.o. ASM got together and had a blast. One final campout before school and college starts up.

11 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Shhhhh!! This is our dirty little secret!  Don't tell!  You shall not reveal that we have subverted the ideal of supporting a unit program in long term camp, and changed it instead into an individual's "pay your fee, get your MB" scheme to pump out Eagle Scouts and generate council revenue.  Into the doghouse with you!

I think my time in Scouting is coming to a close. Troop is fighting to survive another year. Wife is hoping it doesn't.  She says I have given so much to the program that the changes in the program are affecting me. Plus the lack of support from the council. She says I need to reclaim my time. and she may be right.

On 8/5/2025 at 3:23 PM, Double Eagle said:

 I like to think the MB completion would suffice for the tenderfoot- first class ranks.  If they earned the first aid MB, they probably met all the minimum requirements for those ranks. 

Sadly I have been to a camp where they gave away MBs. For example, Scouts receiving Basketry MB without doing all projects, folks receiving aquatics MBs with actually being able to do the skills. and I can go on.

And you feedback to improve the camp is ignored.

I thought an Eagle project could not benefit Scouting?

6 hours ago, Tron said:

What was the cub scout pack doing there? I thought the new range and target activities policies that went live last year only permitted cubs to do range activities at district and council events? 

Actually that has been the rule, Cubs can only do shooting sports at district/council events, since I was a Cub in the 1980s.

Be advised, the max weight allowed for HA is also the maxed weight civilian med evac helicopters have. Too bad the HH-47 Pedro are no longer active.