Eagle94-A1

Yeah, the lawsuit caused a lot of Scouting endowments to be raided. 

Does anyone have the stats on OA membership over the past few years? The section below concerns me. Has the OA fallen so much, that temporary units can now have elections? depending upon when the election is held, folks may not know anyone to judge them worthy or not.

On 2/13/2026 at 3:23 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

We're expanding election opportunities beyond traditional units to include council-recognized Scouting America groups like staff for summer camp and NYLT, council high adventure contingents, and jamboree troops.

EDITED. Found OA annual reports here  https://oa-scouting.org/resources/publications/impact-report

In the 2014 report, we had 171,211 Arrowmen registered. In the 2024 annual report, we had 98,473 registered Arrowmen. That is a 43% drop in 10 years!

On 2/11/2026 at 6:00 PM, Tron said:

 I know that Jan 1st a bunch of changes went into affect and it's blowing up what was already a barely hanging on for relevance program that OA became. 

Do not remind me of the changes.. Yes, some lodges were doing things wrong. Other lodges were doing it properly. I don't think if the local Native nation has both youth and elders involved with the OA, doing ceremonies, dancing, singing, etc is a problem. Heck one lodge had a tribal councilman as a member, and his cousin was a ceremonialist. Another lodge had a powwow drum started at an OA event.

On 2/11/2026 at 3:47 PM, skeptic said:

 It pretty much lost any real credibility, in my view, when it stopped putting limits on how many could be elected in a unit, and ceremonies were done with youth reading from a piece of paper and often with little or no obvious prep.  

...  Our local lodge now is challenged to even find a place to do stuff, as they sold all our camps.  The SE told me they do a good job helping around the office; hmmmmm.  

I was active when the change was made. I and a few others said the OA will slowly die as a result of letting everyone in. I gave them 20-25 years. I think the 100th Anniversary gave it a little more life, and of course the patch collectors.

OK, I admit, I have read names off of scrolls and the back of shield for AOL and Call Outs. Especially if the pack didn't have anything with their names on it.

But completely agree with reading  from paper for the main ceremonies. I would rather the "contemplative pause" or even ad libbing the lines, especially if the ceremonialist knew the meaning and purpose of the lines.

On 2/11/2026 at 6:44 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

3.  Not sure what you mean here, "The only adult, 21+,  was voted on and not nominated."  Adults are nominated by the Troop committee...  was this your process??

Instead of using an adult nomination form, they put the SM on the ballot with the youth, and had the Youth vote on him.

I think OA, and national by extension, is getting desperate for money. Between this and "interesting" elections, to increase membership, I have my wories.

I have been inactive for quite some time. Once the kids became Cubs, I had to pick and choose what to focus on, and OA went out the window. My chapter essentially folded circa 2017, as that was the last time elections were held. Tried to get  them to come, no response.

Well the SM got a neighboring chapter to come in for an election. Yep our chapter is dead, and the hope is the chapter can get restarted. But here is the funny thing.

1. The chapter advisor ran the entire election process. Youth basically said their names and whether they were Brotherhood or Vigil.

2. As long as you were First Class, the camping no longer mattered.

3. The only adult, 21+,  was voted on and not nominated.

4. Everyone seemed to get elected, including folks who had just joined the troop, and no one really knows them. While I am glad they got elected, This shocked me.

Is this now the norm, or a freak anomaly?

17 hours ago, Tron said:

I'll jump on the pity party. 64% of my town lives at or below the poverty line.  $237 is not a lot of money. 

Glad you got a good job, cause i sure don't.

On 2/6/2026 at 9:24 PM, Tron said:

$237 isn't a lot of money in the grand scheme of things but what are the scouts getting back for that? The fee's are not bad if the scouts are getting value back; I just don't see the value back when visiting these high fee councils.  

I do not know where you live, but in my neck of the woods $237 IS a lot of money for folks, especially with multiple kids. I am in a rural area with high poverty rate.

As for value, (sarcasm on) what's a professional? Are those the paid folks who are supposed to help units with recruiting? I have heard of these mythical creatures, and thought they were extinct since it has been so long since I have seen one.(sarcasm off)

If I wasn't trying to laugh, I would be crying.

16 hours ago, Tron said:

Whatever happens going forward membership cannot overlap with recharter; membership with national and council "service fees" have to be clearly defined so as to prevent bad units from scalping parents. 

Oh, but council can add weird fees.  A friend of mine's council has a $77 Council fee added to the individual, and a $75/Scout fee added to the unit recharter. $85+77+75 = $237 per Scout per year in that council.

Don't forget awards and activity supplies have skyrocketed too.

On 2/3/2026 at 10:32 AM, MikeS72 said:

While we have not seen specifics on how this may be implemented, we have been told that the 'rolling registrations' will be going away and we will be going back to everyone expiring/renewing at the same time.

WOW, who could have predicted rolling registration would be a "Charley Foxtrot?"  🤔

Another reason on adult attitudes was WHEN (emphasis) they were in Scouting. I know a former Scouter who was an Eagle in the 1972-1979 "Improved Scouting Program" era. That was when it was possible to be an Eagle without a single night of camping. He could not understand why camping was important.

As much as I like the idea, the cow is out the barn regarding advancement.

I remember watching some national online meeting during COVID, I think it was 2021 National Meeting, where National was praising a FL council for having online MBUs and awarding over 20,000 MBs during the pandemic.

As for adults bringing back integrity, you already have adults trying to cut corners on training. I had adults trying to get me to sign off on their training, but would not staff a class, or when it was allowed, test out of the class.

Sorry if I am pessimistic. 

I know when we did how a troop meeting is done with the old SM Fundamentals (SMF) Training, we were told we were to act like Scouts, and work as patrols during our meeting. Maybe because of my age at the time, but I didn't have problems. And I didn't notice any of my patrol mates having problems either.

If memory serves, the model PLC used the actual SMF troop PLs with the rest of us watching. But I may be getting confused with BA22 and JLTC.

But I agree 100%, training needs to focus more on interaction with Scouts through mentoring and counseling. That was a skill set, counseling PLs while being SPL or JASM, with both BA 22 and JLTC, was very applicable as an adult.

3 hours ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

.My son's coach this year is actually an Eagle Scout. He speaks fondly of his time in Scouting but hasn't enrolled his own son in Cubs. I guess that begs the question - why isn't Scouting able to sustain the program with former Scouts returning as adult volunteers?

Today's Scouting is not the same program as it use to be.

The Cub Scout Program was completely revamped in 2015, with a revision of those requirements  in December 2016 . My then Webelos 2 said they "watered down requirements" because they made things easier to earn. Thankfully the pack decided to ignore the 2016 changes until June 2017 because the "immediate" changes were major enough to cause advancement delays, as well as force the pack to change their programming.  And they have changed the program a few more times since 2017, with the latest being Webelos cannot begin transitioning to Scouts as that happens in 5th grade now.

As for Scouts, the emphasis is on advancement, not fun, adventure, and growth.

10 hours ago, Tron said:

The all merit badge issue is in my opinion a matter of money. The scouts that I have personally seen get them all basically bought their way through it by having the cash to go-go-go. I

I have seen a few, but met only 1 who actually retained the knowledge. Grant you he earned his last MB a few days before turning 18.

 

don't believe a scout should have to master a skill to get a merit badge; however, at the same time I don't believe some of these scouts have retained any knowledge of the harder merit badges which defeats a huge part of the purpose of the merit badge process. 

That is the difference in standards today. Prior to the 2000s, the standard was "Master the skills," and "the badge represents what a Scout CAN DO (sic), not what he has done." Today the focus is on doing the requirements for "personal growth."

The merit badge mills (MBU, etc ... )are less of a concern for me. They're such a mixed bag. Some scouts are coming in with pre-requisites and meeting the base standard, some are exceeding the standard, some are just being tossed a merit badge (which plainly sucks and hurts the scouts and program). I think the difficulty here is that there is a base standard, a minimum; we often get lost in the haze of debate over a scout who over achieves and people believing that should re-baseline the merit badge requirements. Merit badges are not on a bell curve, you do the standard you get the badge. I sat in at a MBU last year and I had a handful of parents and scouts lose their mind on me because they came in with literal reams of pre-work and while great, demonstrating above average achievement, it was a lot of work that was not required. I had to tell a scout and his parents that the standard was X and they did X+10. I had to tell them that the other scouts who just did exactly the requirement for the pre-requisites would get the exact same merit badge. They lost their minds, to them because little billy did more, so should everyone else. 

MBUs are becoming the norm, not the exception, and that is the very concerning for me.  I am seeing more and more folks just get MBs for sitting in a class. And my questions regarding your experience: 1. Why were parents involved, and 2. do you think the kids actually did the extra work, or their parents threw that in?

The requirements to become a MBC are horrible in every way. The standards are arbitrary and subjective. There are very few if any audits of skill going on. There are fiefdoms for certain merit badges. My personal hate is being told I was not qualified to be an MBC for a merit badge and I came back with "I have over 40 years experience and certified training in this, wtf do you mean I am not qualified to be an MBC for this?". When national rolled out the Citizenship in Society MB and all the hoops you had to jump through to be an MBC for that, where the heck are those hoops for any other MB? How can people get signed off to be an MBC without doing the 15min free online training? Too wrap this up I just had to talk a troop leader off the ledge who was going to lose his $%^& on our councils "MB Dean" when the MB Dean told the troop leader that he wasn't qualified to MBC Citizenship in the Nation; the troop leader is teacher who literally teaches a course called "Citizenship in America" at a local high school. The whole process is broken. 

Don't get me started on MBCs and the process.  Either my council dropped, or National IT dropped, every single MBC in my council. To say it was a Charlie Foctrot would be an understatement. Folks who had been MBCs for ages were no longer qualified becuase National mandated some type of certification to teach. I'm sorry but you don't need American Canoe Associate or BSA accreditation to teach Canoeing MB if you got over 40 years experience, 2 Fifty Milers by canoe, etc etc.

But as you noted there is no auditing process. Because of all the problems with BSA's IT systems, I know many troops ignore scoutbook, and have their own list of MBCs. After the last time the MBs I teach were dropped, I said heck with it. Only time it matters is if I teach at a district/council event. They double check., 

10 hours ago, Tron said:

LFL is not considered part of the unit based numbers, and unit based numbers are where national counts membership. LFL is like a bonus thing or something (I don't quite get it). 

Learning for Life is not a bonus. LFL is a subsidiary that most councils, at least the ones I have been in and work for, don't want to have, because once established, they need that program to grow as well. I got into major trouble for tryng to convert "In School Scouting" units to LFL groups.

10 hours ago, Tron said:

There are a bunch of lapses because parents are trying to cheat the system for some reason. The whole lapsed period versus expired thing is a nightmare and in this digital age national should just get rid of both and just terminate membership when they expire. 

I don't think they are trying to cheat the system. I think they are tyring to synchronize their Scout's membership renewal with the unit's recharter.

5 hours ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

Of my son's two main activities, he's observed that hard work in basketball comes with improved skill, admiration from peers, and cool looking gear, while hard work in Cub Scouts comes with virtually no added benefits because everyone gets the same awards anyway.

Not just Cubs, and it is worse. I had to talk to Scouts who cared less about Eagle because they know Eagles who honestly didn't earn it. They asked me "What's the purpose if everyone gets it." That was a difficult discussion. They got upset with folks being handed MBs without doing the work they did. Again another difficult discussion. But the one that hit me hard was OA elections. OA meant a lot to me growing up, and I remained active as an adult. Sons even helped me assemble regalia and the drum. None of my sons got interested in the OA. One because he saw folks he knew, and questioned how they got elected. Another was pumped to join, until the Call Out Ceremony, when one of his peers in his former troop, who hated camping and was a trouble maker, got called out with him. He lost all interest in the OA because, "If an honor society will let him in, it is not a big deal." Youngest was never interested because of his brothers' experiences. Which was good because the chapter would not stop to do unit elections after 3 years of asking for them. 

3 hours ago, DuctTape said:

The pressure from sports to be "100% committed to the team" starts to manifest as kids move into Middle School. The same happens with the school play, and most other extra-curriculars. The adults in charge exert the pressure b/c it is more difficult for them to run their program with inconsistent attendance. Just like scouting is more of a hassle with inconsistent attendance. Best way for Scouts to address this is to focus on patrol activities, encourage highly active scouts (those who are 90-100%) to create their own patrol and plan/do stuff together. This high functioning patrol can act as the model for all the others. 

I know in some parts of the country, HS extracurriculars are also graded. I know at the HS I went to,  your PE class was based on the sports you played. The practices and games in season counted as class, and the scheduled class period was mandatory study hall. Miss a practice or game, there went your grade. Band had it worse as they had to attend practices, games, competitions, and parades. Depending on the time of year, their music class was more practice, and not study hall. Ditto with missing something, because it affected your grade.

16 hours ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

Since we're still in the Scouts vs. Sports thread: I was recently provided a list of possible summer camp dates for my 3rd grader, and I (as a Den Leader) couldn't commit to any of them until basketball camp schedules come out. My son is on the top team, but probably only the 6th or 7th best player in his grade. He risks being bumped to the B-Team next year if organizers don't think we take basketball seriously in the offseason. Would he probably be OK if he missed a week of basketball for Scout Camp? Yes. Is he good enough that he wants to risk it? No. There is a definite FOMO / scarcity element to youth sports.

That is part of the problem. Sports tend to want your entire life to revolve around the sport, and nothing else. Or there will be consequences. I still remember when the martial arts dojo sprang a last minute weekend seminar with 4 days notice. Happened to be the same weekend an aunt from out of town was visiting.  The owners expected my kids to attend the last minute weekend seminar instead of the activities we had planned with their aunt. The next  session after the weekend seminar, all those who didn't attend were chewed out. And when it came time to spar, those who attended were being encouraged to beat the crap out of those who didn't attend.  When I talk to parents of kids involved in sports, all  I hear is how their lives are completely turned around and focused on that sport: school team, travel leagues, camps, workshops, etc.

Scouting doesn't have that mentality. I think some folks want  the low advancement standards so their child can get eagle and move on to focus on sports.

Sorry for the disjointedness. dealing with issues.

Training is horrible, and adults do not know vital skills. How can you expect a good program if you cannot do the basics?

Many units focus on advancement, a left over from Cub Scouts IMHO. And part of that is WDLs have not been getting the training they need on transitioning from Cubs to Scouts. And they keep on doing what they have been trained. Additionally advancement standards have indeed dropped, despite what folks say. When a Life Scout cannot do basic T-2-1 first aid, that is a problem. And if you try to have standards, you get complaints of adding to requirements or gatekeeping, and told they need to quit. Some folks quit. And some just focus on their units.

As for professionals, the training I went through as a pro didn't cover programming, just the "3 Ms": Money, Membership, and Manpower. Yes, I had to have SM Fundamentals, Cub Scout Basic Leader Training, and Explorer Leader Basic (either the full class or self study course with advisor) in order to be a DE. But that was so that we could understand the programs we were working for. And I am told today's DEs not only getting less topics covered in training, but also are NOT required to have any of the program basic trainings done completed prior to professional training.. So very few pros have the abilties to run programs.

13 hours ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

So, despite a few strong programs in every area, unit programming seems to be lacking.

I suggested more council / district events run by professionals and experienced volunteers, but everyone's experience there indicates those are also hit and miss.

Training sucks. There is no denying it. Standards have dropped to the point they are almost nonexistant, and if you try to keep some, you are told you are gatekeeping or adding to requirements. Folks with knowledge, skills, abilities, and experience are being told they don't know what they are doing, they need to quit, etc. they are getting fed up and quitting.

As far as professionals go, very, very few have what it takes to run programs. Most are just out of college and trying to pay off loans.

more later.

2 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

So, my gut tells me the 837K number is low.  If accurate, it would mean a loss 40K Scouts since end of 2025. (Another loss of 4.56% of membership.) 

Many councils have December 31st as the last day of a unit's charter year. That is so that those units that fold, and members that drop, are considered in the end of year tally. The 837,145 number is probably correct.

Historically, the end of year numbers have always come out in March, as they have had rechartering issues in the past too. I remember one pack that had paperwork issues, was "dropped," and then reappear with their membership numbers magically added to the end of year numbers once the charter was completed.

I hope I am wrong, but I do not think we will reach 975,672 (2% growth) for 2025 when everything is said and done. I do not think we will suddenly find 68,534 members.

I was invited to teach a MB at an MBU. Told them point blank it would be a partial. Sent out email telling Scouts in the class what things they could do before the MBU to get the MB. I got a lot of complaints, and was never asked back.

Irony was it was Indian Lore MB, and i had a full blood Lakota stationed at the air base "auditing" my class. I got a lot of praise from her for what we went over. Too bad she wasn't in the session with the smart aleck who asked "which is more violent, Rugby or Lacrosse" My response was "While rugby is a thug sport played by gentlemen, and rugby's unofficial motto is 'Give Blood, Play Rugby,' no one ever was enslaved or executed for losing a game of rugby whereas in some versions of lacrosse losers were enslaved or ritually sacrificed. So Lacrosse is the more violent of the two."  Shut him down the rest of the class.

14 hours ago, Tron said:

I think a lot of new leaders really need to take all of the training (like SM & committee & COR & etc ... ) to get a real good picture of how a troop should run. There is also the issue of the training doesn't quite line up with reality due to a lot of leaders just doing their own thing; which in turn confuses new leaders. 

It also bothers me that NONE, absolutely NONE of the online training ever mentions any of the troop leader guides. 

Here is the irony, he is fully trained and is scheduled to go to WB in the near future.

1 hour ago, PACAN said:

Can we split this topic into the two things people are posting about?

Yes

1 hour ago, PACAN said:

my friend sent me numbers for December.  Total membership around 877k.

To quote the grandfather in  PRINCESS BRIDE, "Wait, just wait." The "official" December 2025 number will be out in a few weeks. Still we are down from last year 

So I attended my first event today with the new troop. The SM is "trained," but admitted he doesn't consider himself "trained," and is glad I am joining the troop. We started talking, and from the discussion,  I realized a lot of info was left out of the online training.  We are trying to recruit new Scouters, and I have a feeling I will be doing some informal training with them on camp outs.