Eagle94-A1

3 hours ago, Double Eagle said:

A couple of things on this.  No hurry to get them to cross over.  I'm more in favor of late (May) cross overs and enjoy the open calendar to do things as an AOL den besides requirements.  With early cross overs (Dec - Mar), the pack doesn't benefit from having the AOL den participate.  They can do some great things to keep the other dens enthused.   

My experience, and research done in the past points this out, Cubs who cross over no later than March tend to go to summer camp, which retains them longer. I grew up in the old 3 year Cub Scout Program, and when I crossed over to a troop, 1. My family could not afford the lump sum payment required to go to summer camp and 2. My mom did not know any of the Troop Scouters, and didn't feel comfortable letting me go even if they could afford it.

And my parents weren't the only ones with these issues as the BSA's research in the late 1980s, early 1990s shows. This is why when BSA revamped the Webelos program into an 18-24 month program in the 1990s, they encouraged Cross Over NLT March. 

I was trained as a WDL in the late 1990s when it was a full day class that covered all the different positions. The emphasis on the Webelos Den Leader section was preparing the Webelos for that transition. If done, the Webelos 2s/AOLs are ready and chomping at the bit to Cross Over. My youngest felt restrained and resented a bit having to wait for his den to Cross Over. One thing that did help was putting the Webelos 1s in the senior Cub role model role. Not only did it help with them gaining confidence, it helped showed the parent what their Scouts are capable of.  In my experience the parents have the hardest time transitioning.

As @MikeS72 points out "Be active in your Webelos den for at least six months since completing the fourth grade or for at least six months since becoming 10 years old."  So the earliest based on Grade is December (BSA's computer system uses June 1 as the start of a school year, regardless of when they actually finish 4th grade).

If you go by year, it is theoretically possible to move them up by March of their 4th grade year, And since Webelos is no longer required for Arrow of Light, you can immediately start work on AOL as soon as they turn 10.

We did the following based upon the old CS training I did back in the day. Sadly the current training doesn't really cover this like it should.

1. As soon as they move to 4th grade, begin treating them as a patrol. Let them elect a denner to help things. Start telling the parents to back away That is the hard part as they have the most difficult time.

1a. If you have a Den Chief, let the Cubs go to him, and let him supervise and plan things. That way you can show parents what Scouting is about, what Scout led can do, etc. HOWEVER YOU NEED A GOOD DEN CHIEF!!!!!! (major emphasis) I lucked out, I had phenomenal den chiefs, and even gave up one to the Webelos Den because the WDL quit, and the folks taking over were not campers. BUT My pack also had horrible DCs, one of whom was asked never to return.

2. Start having the Cubs run some of the meetings, and remind the parents to let their Cub shine.

3. If you have any district Webelos activities, do them. And if they are competitions, remind the parents that this is for the Scouts. I remember one event where the Webelos were supposed to build a catapult and launch tennis balls in a field. One den had engineers as DLs, and you could tell the engineers designed and built it, and not the Cubs. Long story short we changed catapult rules because of them. ( their catapult shot a tennis ball out over the field, some trees, a building, and into the lake). Again remind parent s to let the Cubs do the work.

4. Start visiting and camping with troops as 4th graders. I lucked out, my boys were Webelos in the brief period were Webelos could camp with troops at camporees. Some camporees even designed special Webelos only events for them, and allowed them to try their hand on different events, time permitting. BEST. RECRUITING. TOOL. EVER! (yeah I'm shouting now. :)  Think it is mistake they reverted to the old policy..) But do joint activities.

5. If your day camp has the faculties and staff, they can create a Webelos Woods program, another way to keep them pumped up.

6. Visit and camp with more troops as 5th graders. One popular acticvity was CASTAWAY ACTIVITY BADGE. We had Scouts teach the skills to the Webelos, and had them camp with the troop during our wilderness survival weekend.

7. We aimed for a December-January Crossover. Youngest's den was a little behind and did a February cross over. But youngest essentially stopped attending meetings in December as he had everything needed for AOL. He started hanging with his brother's troop.

Good luck.

4 hours ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

The easiest way to ensure a child's activities are safe is to volunteer.

You don't have to be a registered leader to show up and help ensure kids are having good, clean fun.....

One of the biggest concerns many parents have in my experience is camping. And now they cannot camp with Scouts, Sea Scouts, or Venturers as all adults MUST (emphasis)be registered. And even without the council add on fees, that can be prohibitive to some families.

At least National listened to Cub Scout folks who stated that if the new rule applied to Cub Scout camping, it would destroy the program. I am glad family camping is still allowed without restrictions at the Cub level. 

On 10/18/2023 at 10:36 PM, mrjohns2 said:

NOAC staff on discord. I don’t have any of the numbers. 

Thanks.

I would bet a Dutch oven pizza that the cancellation of AOL and Crossover Ceremonies I a reason for the lack of interest in AIA.  

@mrjohns2Can you show me where that stat came from?

 Also Can you provide me the info  from a NOAC for the 2018 NOAC?

Also total attendance from 2018 and 2022 would be nice as well if possible  I ask because 2018 was when National stated no more ceremonial regalia for AOL and Crossover Ceremonies, and mandated skits ceremonies  that seemed more like commercials. This 2018 rule caused so much of a ruckus in my lodge that folks refused to do those ceremonies. I have stated that many folks get their interest in the OA from those ceremonies, and it would kill ceremonies over time. 

Thanks in advance.

32 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

What makes you say that?

I have never heard anyone say or do anything to suggest that this would be true. 

One of the attorneys is on the record, specifically an NPR interview, stating he wants the BSA dissolved. One of the bankruptcy threads has a link to the 30 minute interview.

29 minutes ago, yknot said:

I'm not sure BSA did that directly but since University of Colorado Boulder is one of the leading universities concerned with NA issues it's an appropriate place to hold NOAC but an unlikely place to host AIA type events. UCB's NA center basically led the fight with the NFL to change team names. 

If the BSA's Powers That Be (PTB) didn't agree with this decision,  I bet NOAC would have been held elsewhere, This decision was made years ago, and they came up with a plan to phase out AIA. Look at ceremony teams today.

I know when the OA chapter came and picked up their gear and equipment out of storage I had, everything AIA related, except the drum, was left behind: ceremony regalia, dance regalia, regalia making supplies, etc. Stuff that took years to get the money to buy and make just left behind like it was garbage. I bet they took drum, despite having no singers,  because they can sell it for a lot, even used.

I know folks who have not missed a NOAC since they were first became Arrowmen and are now skipping out on Colorado.

I also know some lodges bring large contingents to compete in AIA events. I remembering one lodge had so many folks signing up that they did not have enough spaces. Almost all were competing in AIA events.

I do believe attendance will be low.

On 10/8/2023 at 7:17 AM, BetterWithCheddar said:

Great point. I'll add: If the BSA is going to survive, it has to be OK with being every family's 2nd or 3rd favorite activity. I'm a Den Leader and it's not uncommon to see kids arrive 15 minutes late in their soccer or baseball uniform with a bag of food from Subway. You'll never hear me make a peep about their timing or appearance. I'm just glad they made it. 

 

[Old man Voice] "In my day, when we were coming from {insert activity here}, we went into the bathroom and changed into our Scout uniform, AND WE LIKED IT!" (OLD MAN VOICE OVER) 🤣🤣🤣🤣

Seriously though, I remember several times coming in late and changing in the bathroom. Heck I went from a HS senior ring ceremony (semi-formal dress)with my date to an Eagle Court of Honor, changed into uniform, went to the ECOH, and as soon as the ceremony was over change back into coat and tie and go to ring dance.

But the absolute best was my girlfriend's winter formal. Prior to going, I had to MC a Court of Honor. She shows up to that in her formal, and I had my tux on a hanger. As soon as the ceremony was done, changed and  to the formal we went.😂😂😂😂

29 minutes ago, BlueandSilverBear said:

Haven't heard from the Troops, but recruiting for our Pack has been phenomenal after a big crossover year. 

Glad someone is being successful. The packs I have talked to are having issues with recruiting. Lot of folks cannot afford the $140 fee that national and council is charging.

A few comments.

1. be prepared to leave as the COR can do anything they want. grant you they are doing too much and really should be a support role.

2.. While I am a fan of troop ceremonies, my troop growing up had a standardized ECOH script, they need to be flexible. MY father was out of the picture when I got Eagle, but my Godfather was a big support, and he got the dad pin.

3. If you go the ECOH on your own, be prepared to pay the financial cost, as well as the emotional cost. It will cause issues with the COR.

4. A cheap way to go for initiations is  to create a photo invite and print locally, or using a certain national online vendor.  One Eagle I know figured out that as a member of the online provider, it was cheaper for him to mail individual photos  via them. But a lot of $0.27 charges on the credit card.

5. I do not know who gets the eagle credentials. If he gets them and tries to hold them up, you can get replacement credentials though the Scout Shop. You will need some info, i.e. full name on application, date of EBOR, etc to have it verifies and sent to you. I had to get a replacement packet.

6. While I do not like what this troop did, It may help in this situation.  Troop used another person's credentials to buy an eagle kit in order to have all their eagles presented at their annual eagle COH. This troop does one per year, it is a MASSIVE deal, and while confirmation is in SCOUTBOOK, it does take time to get the credentials.

More later.

When I was a youth many years ago, we had a troop fold and some of their Scouts joined our troop. We also got some gear out of them folding. Once I became an ASM, I found out the full story. CO was a civic organization, and the president and few board members were not favorable towards Scouting. They were also having some financial challenges. When their board found out that they owned equipment and money in the account, they decided they were not going to recharter the unit, sell the equipment, and use the money for themselves. One of the board members was pro scouting and got the word out. Before they folded, they prepaid all their members for another year's membership, summer camp, and a few had national jamboree paid for. They sold the equipment to the various units the Scouts were joining dirt cheap ( I seem to recall $1 either for all or per item) and essentially left them with about $100 in the account. IH was mad, but the treasurer, who was the pro-Scouting member, reminded them that even if they had everything, it was supposed to be saved for restarting the troop, and they were not suppose to sell the equipment or use the funds for themselves.

We are in a similar boat. We have no Cub Scout pack affiliated with us, and our council has refused to help when we asked for it.. Recruiting is strictly word of mouth, and usually entails folks transferring from other troops. However we now have 2 with no previous Scouting  experience. 

We are pushing recruiting, both Scouts and parents. With the exception of me, none of the active, registered adults have Scouts anymore. And my youngest is looking to drop next year.

1 minute ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

"...The one part which I can claim as mine towards promoting the Movement is that I have been lucky enough to find you men and women to form a group of the right stamp who can be relied upon to carry it on to its goal. You will do well to keep your eyes open, in your turn, for worthy successors to who you can, with confidence, hand on the torch. Don't let it become a salaried organization: keep it a voluntary movement of patriotic service." - BP

I admit, I see the necessity of having a SMALL (major emphasis) professional corps. UK is quite successful with a small cadre of pros. But BSA's overbloated bureaucracy is wasteful IMHO. Even councils can be wasteful. One council I know of has 3 individuals working one district, yet the other two have vacancies, and even when one was filled, the pro was not visible.

@Cburkhardt,

You may not realize it, but there are ways for SEs, and to a lesser extent DEs, to manipulate who is, and is not, on a district committee, council executive committee, or council executive board. When I was a DE, my SE and DFS had an in-council training session on how to get the folks we want onto those committees. They essentially said we should get folks who will shut up and do what we tell them to do without question.

One of the reasons why I was in trouble with them is because I refused to replace some "critics" with "yes men." I wanted the best folks for the job to be on my district committee, and didn't mind having folks coming up with alternatives, especially since these alternatives 95% of the time had better results than what I was being told to do. They couldn't fire me because I was meeting my goals, and they had no excuse todo so. But they could make my life miserable, which is what they did.

The way Pros control who is on the committees and boards is via the nominations committee. They get folks who are yes men on those committees to select other yes men for the various positions.

Again, I am just pointing out that nationally, there are different procedures. What is the norm in one area, is not the norm in another.

Yes there are cameras, LEOs, metal detectors, buzz ins, etc. But presenting photo ID is not one of them.

On 9/15/2023 at 6:14 PM, yknot said:

Presenting a driver's license in order to gain access to areas that kids are in, for example a school, has been SOP in a lot of places for a long time.

As you stated, not everywhere. I visit high schools on a regular basis. I get buzzed into the office, register via computer which takes my photo and issues me a badge that is a sticker. No ID or fingerprints required.

57 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

This one baffles me.  Except from the COR standpoint.  That is, your COR has an absolute say over who participates in their Scouting program.  But, if you clear it with your COR, then I don't see the issue. 

I know some COs had no problem with parents taking YPT, getting a background check by the BSA, and registering as an  MBC. We were told that MBCs also underwent a background check. 

1 hour ago, PACAN said:

Any others with experience with Scoutreach??

Depends upon the council. In one council I was in, it was more than an afterschool program, just with subsidized SMs (he got resources he needed from the council. They had a parapro oversaw them and helped them.

In another council, it was mixed. One district had a paid parapro running the 3-4 troops afterschool. In another district, 4 troops shared a subsidized SM. He was retired and  4 meetings a week, and camped 4 weekends a month except when camporees occurred. Then all 4 units camped in the same campsite. Problem was when he left, all four units died overnight. Ditto with the parapro. When his wife got orders transferring them, all 3-4  units folded overnight.

19 minutes ago, cmd said:

Our council just increased our insurance fee from $6 to $20, and extended that to include MBCs.  So that has jumped from $0 to $45 this year.  That's a lot to ask someone to pay for the POSSIBILITY of someone asking to do a merit badge with them. 

Yet the MBCs  cannot camp.

13 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Also, I have talked with several leaders in other units who say they just invite the "guests" to do the instruction, then sign off the MBs in Scoutbook, without being an MBC.  No, this does not meet the intent or design of the program, IMO, but the practice is underway...

Will see a lot more of that, especially since it is already done at the Cub level.

55 minutes ago, Delphinus said:

... Merit Badge Counselors, people who volunteer and freely donate their time and expertise, have gone from no fee to an annual $25 fee for the opportunity to volunteer their time. 

And some councils have tacked on an insurance fee to MBCs, even though they can no longer camp with units.

39 minutes ago, Ojoman said:

 This is literally killing one of the best programs for instilling character and citizenship in young people. Additionally, with a shrinking professional support team local councils have found it easier to tack on their own service fees than raise operating funds, these fees did not exist until recently. While the 12 month program often is not more expensive than enrollment in  sports programs for the youths, the costs for parents to 'volunteer' along with the youth increase is burdensome to many families. Time will tell if the BSA will survive all of this. I hope it does.  

Understatement. Less staff, added council fees, and seeing no value for these fees is making many jaded in my area. And some families used Scouting in lieu of sports because they could not afford sport, like my family. Glad my older two are out because I do not think I could afford all 4 of us in the program ( would have been 5, but after multiple attempts to get the wife registered, and when she is finally registered as an MBC, she gets dropped with every other MBC in the council, she said "enough is enough. no more."

I honestly do not know how much longer I can afford to stay involved.

42 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

Our pack pays all adult fees and in-person trainings for this reason. (Out of popcorn money.)

Sadly not every unit is in that situation. Mine is in a high poverty, rural part of the US where the median income is barely above the US poverty rate.

I hope when the mergers come to my area, the new pros actually listen and work with volunteers and develop relationships with them to get things done. Sadly the pros of late do not listen and do not stay around long enough for that to happen. Most quit within a year. Between the shortness of tenure and the lack of respect, there is a lot of distrust of professionals. 

And while sometimes change is good, at other times it is not. Sometimes the volunteers do indeed know better how to handle local situations because they know the community, and if a long time volunteer, what will work and what will not. I know I have seen pros try to implement things in my area that have been attempted in the past, and have failed, in some cases miserably. Since the DEs we have gotten lately are fresh out of college, with no Scouting experience whatsoever, not only are they completely clueless to the program, but also they are clueless to the local situation. Their bosses are telling them what to do based, upon their experience elsewhere, which is not at all similar to the local situation. 

Best example was my move to the district as a pro. Having moved from a metro council to a smaller size council, sorry cannot remember the class size, I discovered because of a variety of factors, things that work in a metro council do not work in a rural one. Rounds ups being a good example. In the metro council, packs adopted schools to recruit from, usually the closest one to the school.  In the rural council, because of bussing all over the place, packs shared schools because people joined by closest meeting location, which might not be the pack closest to the school like in the metro council. Thankfully I had a Scouting background as  a youth, unit Scouter, and district Scouter. I knew I needed to listen to my volunteers who knew the situation better than the guy from out of town.

10 hours ago, Armymutt said:

This is my concern too, especially the loss of Scout Shops.  While no merger was involved, our local shop (a national one) was closed.  Now we have to drive an hour to get patches and advancement, or pay to have them shipped.  Getting parents to uniform their kids is a challenge since they now have to drive so far to get them.  Large councils with satellite offices and shops would work and be reasonably cheap.  

Sadly i see this in the future. Local distributers do not find it in their best interest to be a distributor anymore. IMHO, BSA has not treated them well. I know the Centennial Uniform debacle back in 2008 hurt a lot of distributors because they were buying merchandise that was going to soon be discontinued. My local distributor had a loss on Scouting merchandise, and quit selling stuff. And apparently his was everywhere. I visited a local distributor that was a direct competitor to the national scout shop, and they probably did as much business as the scout shop. I can tell you they hired folks who knew Scouting and the outdoors, and really helped folks out. There knowledgeable staff worked with folks to make sure they got exactly what they needed, not necessarily the most expensive merch.  When I needed gear for a major trip, they were my go to store, especially since they worked out  a deal with the contingent leaders: 25% off non-Scout merchandise and 10% off Scout merchandise. They too quit being a distributor once they finally sold all their merch.

20 hours ago, Double Eagle said:

Is there a publication or source for the slide showing AIA competitions not being held?  I have a few interested drummers and dancers.

 

Source is a FB post by a previous NOAC judge/trainer.