Eagle94-A1

Stosh,

By balance and adult led, I think I need to clarify. Balance refers to me doing my job as his dad by showing him how to do things, helping him, and allowing him to be successful, BUT also doing my job as a leader and not helping him too much and actually doing things for him.

I want him to do things on his own and the help and advice I give him not be considered commands from dad.That is my biggest fear, him thinking any advice I give him are commands.

As you can imagine, in working with youth on the Scout level, I've never dealt with my own son before. Never had had to deal with the "Dad factor" and I need to strike the balence.

Troop is currently 18 youth, with 15 active. So 2 patrols are needed. And we are about to get 6 more in a month.

I agree with you, I do NOT (emphasis) think he's ready for SPL. I think he should be focusing on overcoming his nervousness in talking to the SM and get the basic 2-1 skills signed off. I keep telling him he has nothing to worry about, SM has had stutters before in the past, and it will be OK.

I know I need the luck with the PLCs for the next 6 months. One of the reasons I posted about the balancing act is again, I want to help him out and prepare him, but don't want it to be like I am telling him what to do.

In regards to intervention, I had a chat with one of the previous SPLs over the weekend. He's one of the Scouts that my son looks up to, and I have asked him to help out son and support him. Son and SM haven't appointed an ASPL yet, I believe it will occur this weekend, but he's one that has been brought up for that position or TG. He's patient and willing to work with younger guys. PLUS he goes with the decisions of the current leadership, even if it is against his advice. Told me, "It's frustrating when it happens, but they learn." I'm glad his name was mentioned and hope that he can mentor my son like my old SPL did for me when I was a PL.

As for adult leadership being thin, that is an understatement. And I don't see that changing anytime soon either.

As for your advice,

1) Doing that

2) Hoping the person above can be ASPL and mentor him. Also going to mention it to the PLs.

3) This is where the "balance " comes in. He can be hardheaded and determined like his mother. He feels that he was given the responsibility, and that he needs to do his best in the job. I’ve asked him several times if he really feel up to the job, does he think he can handle it, or does he think he needs to step down. I keep getting the same response: I got to do my best because they elected me.

BUT, I know my son’s personality. He’s a perfectionist, and when things don’t go 100% he can get extremely frustrated, to the point he can lose interest. I don’t want that to happen.

4) Unfortunately the troop does have some adult imposed rules for SPL. 1) Must have been a PL (OK I do agree with that one) and 2) SPL cannot run for a second consecutive term (reason I was told was to give him a break and prevent burn out).

From talking to the former SPL above, there have been only 2 people who have been elected SPL prior to my son. Scout A would be SPL, then had to wait 6 months before he could run again. Scout B would get elected, but then A would get reelected once eligible. Then B would get reelected after A.

Now the SM told me he’s going to add a First Class or higher rank requirement. And I admit I’m OK with that.

4) Socratic method, I got it.

You should have seen and heard me when I went to pick him up from that meeting! I asked him several times if he was serious, if he knew what being SPL fully entailed, if he really thinks he can handle it, and if this was a joke. I had the outgoing SPL confirm it wasn’t a joke, and still could not believe it until I got confirmation from the SM. Up until the PLC a week later, I kept asking him if he really knows what he is in for, if he can handle it, and if he thinks it may be better to step down.

As you can imagine this has been a roller coaster of emotions. Proud that he got elected ( I did talk to two of the Scouts who voted for him and they told me they nominated and/or voted for him because of the job he did a PL. Shock because he doesn't have the expereince. Concern because I know how "failure" can get to him. I keep telling him he doesn't need to be perfect, he WILL screw up, and that he needs to learn form the mistakes.

Ken,

Yes, both of us. But son is still a little nervous about doing so. Something he needs to work on.

The challenge with the SM, and one he readily admits, is that someone younger, with more energy and time, needs to be SM. Also we need some ASMs who can commit more time. Currently every ASM, save one, is also involved in Cub Scouts. And the one who is not is involved in shift work, so he cannot get off to help every single meeting. So he is a bit overwhelmed first trying to get the troop running, then keeping it going.

Quazse,

ISLT is one thing that wasn't planned. And it's needed. Definately do not want to do it for him.

What I was hoping was the old Tell, Show Do. Tell him how it needs to be done, Show him once how it is done, and then let him do it.

OK, I need some help and advice to make sure I'm not going off base.

My son's troop just had unit elections. As you know they are a young troop, so there were no rank and/or expereince requirements for SPL. I do not think the scout elected SPL should have been elected since A) he hasn't been in the troop a year yet, B) Is only a Tenderfoot, and C) has only 6 months as PL of the new scout patrol. Yes, my son got elected SPL on the second ballot.

Long story short, the adult leadership is stretched thin, and training hasn't really been done. This is recognized and the goal is to send 2 Scouts to NYLT this summer, but that is then. I got a young (11 year old) Scout who needs help.

And here is where I need to make sure I am not going off base and becoming a helicopter parent.

The PLC has planned their monthly themes and decided where they will be camping or day tripping. But the weekly meetings have not been out. The next month is planned out in detail by the adults ( 2 rehearsals for the AOL and Cross Over ceremony, the ceremonies, and COH). But January is open season. So I'm thinking of having him sit with me, and I make the detailed plans for January's meetings and lock in to show him how it is done. Then with February's plans have him do the work with me assisting as needed. And hopefully by the time planning for March comes, he will be doing it on his own.

Again your thoughts, and THANK YOU IN ADVANCE!

Interesting question.

While for a very brief period it the late 1980s to early 1990s it was OK to wear OA sashes at COHs and other formal occasions, if i can find my OAHB from the time I'll post the relevant pages, prior to that time and currently it is not. OA sashes for OA events or doing OA duties, i.e. camp promotions, unit elections, etc.

What may be an idea to spark interest in the OA, as well as get folks pumped up for summer camp, is to have the local OA chapter or lodge do a summer camp promotion at the COH. And if anyone is eligible for the OA do the election, and possibly the Call Out if that is done at the troop level in your neck of the woods, at the COH. The he, and any other Arrowman would have an excuse to wear the sash in support of the camp promo team.

OH and if you do do a camp promo, please remember to invite 2nd year Webelos who may join your troop to the COH.

As I have mentioned elsewhere, my pack does the AOL and Cross Over Ceremonies in December. Why that early? For a variety of reasons.

1) Since we have an active year round program, most Webelos IIs are waiting on the "Be active in your Webelos den for at least six months since completing the fourth grade (or for at least six months since becoming 10 years old), and earn the Webelos badge. " in order to earn the award, i.e. 6 months from June 1st is December 1st.

2)And since our Cubs are chomping at the bit to become Boy Scouts, as soon as they meet the joining requirements: "Meet the age requirements. Be a boy who is 11 years old, or one who has completed the fifth grade or earned the Arrow of Light Award and is at least 10 years old, but is not yet 18 years old." we cross them over. I know of only 1 Scout who waited to Cross Over, and the wait was less than 2 weeks, so he could Cross Over with his buddies.

Don't know how the new changes are going to affect my middle son as the new AOL requirements do not have an age requirement to them. And he is already jealous of his older brother camping every month.

3)We do not have to deal with rechartering them

4) Gives the new Scouts plenty of time to get acquainted with the troop and get ready for summer camp.

5) Gives parents plenty of time to get acquainted with the troop and get ready for summer camp.

That's vital.

6) Gives the new Scouts plenty of time to fundraise and pay for summer camp. That ticked me off back in the day when Cub Scouts was 3 years and you Crossed Over in May, I found out about summer camp 2 or 3 weeks before the troop went and could not go .

7) Did I mention the Cubs are chomping at the bit to become Boy Scouts?

And as far back as I can remember, Once you got the Arrow of Light, you Crossed Over to Boy Scouts. So only in the BSA literature would you see the AOL badge on a Cub Scout. BUT you do get to wear it as a Boy Scout.

This is my interpretation of the topic of CS Advancement. If you read the pack and meeting den planning book, as you do the meetings, the Cubs automatically get whatever bead they have earned at the end of the meeting. For example after this weeks meeting, if i was going by the book I would have awarded the 2 Tigers beads they earned that nite. Then you record it on the den advancement report to give to the advancment person in the pack. No need to sign off in the book.

Can I pin it to the forehead of the parent that's paying his son for each rank advancement? Talk about a SM nightmare.

If the cases I'm familiar with are the norm, it will backfire on the parents. In one case the Life Scout only needed to do his service project as he had everything else done, and would have enough time to earn several palms. Incentive was driver's license and car.

For several reasons, my pack now crosses over in December. Reasons include the following:

1) December 1 is the earliest they can cross over with the 6 months since completing 4th grade requirement.

2) Because we do have an active Webelos program, and do year round activities, they are chomping at the bit to become Boy Scouts.

3) We recharter in January, so by Crossing Over in December, we avoid recharter headaches

4) Most troops are preparing for summer camp in the Jan-Feb time frame, and we want those new Scouts to be able to go to summer camp.

5) It gives the new scouts, and more importantly the new scout parents, time to get adjusted to the troop, get a few Boy Scout camp outs under their belt, and prepare them for summer camp.

6) Did I mention that the Webelos are getting bored and are chomping at the bit to be come Boy Scouts?

I'm kinda like Inigo Montaya, "I hate waiting." And the Webelos I've encountered are like that too.

Stout,

The ones issed to me by my then council were government surplus ones, not official ones. I did buy the BSA leather chin strap for the "nice" cover, but my "used" cover still has a bootlace for the chin strap. I've replaced the bootlace once since 1988.

As for the leather hat band, you can buy them from national. But both of mine are British ones from BP House and have been branded at one of the camps I worked at. I also picked up some plumes while I was over there.

So unless you look really close at my "nice" hat, you can't tell it is not the official BSA one. And with the exception of the black shoelace, my "used" hat looks 100% official too.

I mostly wear one of the two campaign hat I have. The one I earned for completing Brownsea 22 back in the day has been through hurricanes, numerous camp outs, and shot at by German Scouts (don't ask ) is what I mostly wear as it has been "used and abused." Plus it's a great reminder for me when I do archery and bb guns with Cubs. The one I received for staffing JLT is in a hat press and pristine condition, so it' used for ceremonies.

I also wear on occasion the expedition hat, aka "Indiana Jones" becasue it is as good as the smokey, and is crushable, making it easier to wear when I play "pack mule" on family Cub Scout camp outs.

However, since "cold" is a 4 letter word for me, I will very shortly be wearing my toque when camping.

I have to agree with Stosh, if you wait any period of time before transferring, disillusionment occurs and they quit. While I waited 6 months before transferring to a new troop way back in the day, I knew about my cousins' troop, and attended some functions before transferring.

But out of my Oldest son's Webelos Den, 1 Scout quit within 3 monthsof joining; 1 who was a camping addict quit within 4 months of joining; and 1 transferred, and that was only because dad was a scout and knew his old ASM was now SM of the troop the son joined.

In retrospect, I'm wondering if I am allowing loyalty to CO A, sentamentality with helping Troop A get started, and the discussion among Troop B's leaders not wanting to "steal" Scouts affect my concerns in regards to Troop A. Considering that the three Scouts I recruited for them at a Spring Round Up had quit before Fall started, and out of the 5 Webelos who crossed over last December, only 2 are with the troop still (one has commented that he will be transferring after his Tenderfoot BOR), maybe not having any involvement is a good thing if all we will be doing is losing Scouts.

Sidney,

Correct, I am with Pack A and Troop B. There is also a Pack B, which everyone at CO B keeps trying to get me to transfer to but understand why I don't.

Pack and Troop B have a great relationship, CM and WDL are ASMs with the troop. While the MCs may be different, the CC is the same person and is active. There have been several instances of Cubs doing activities with us.

As for trying to help Troop A out, there several reasons for that. One reason is that I helped start that unit and have assisted them through the years. In fact the troop was the reason why we looked at the pack first. So seeing the troop flourish is a personal reason. I hate things I worked hard on to fail.

Another reason is that the troop has more members of the CO in it than the pack, and for whatever reason, the pack is suffering some, i.e. CO used to give some funding to help the pack, we lost access to several rooms that were used by dens, etc. It seems as if once it was known that 2 of the Cubs were going to a different troop, the pack's relationship with the CO has deteriorated some.

Finally, in a close knit district like mine, sometimes "bad blood" develops, for whatever reasons, and it IS (emphasis) detrimental to all involved. And folks in my neck of the woods have long memories (we still have a troop that refuses to got to the local summer camp b/c the then SM's son WILLING (emphasis and I saw the Scout immediately after it was done witht he smile on his face) had his head shaved and SM dad was not happy). We got enough challenges with such a young troop that we don't need any intertroop drama. And that is what the leaders want to avoid.

Forgot to mention, there is already some "bad blood" as the CM/ASM of Pack and Troop B was once a leader with Pack A. When his pastor asked him to start Pack B, 1/2 the Cubs in Pack A did leave as a result. The SM of Troop A was the CM at the time, and accused him of "stealing" scouts. And yes there was drama.

Stosh,

Yep, I had to beg the troop to invite Webelos on a camp out with them when my oldest was a Webelos (I wanted my old den to get to know them). Also I and the Webeloree Chief had to beg them to staff the Webeloree, which is a big recruiting tool as the Webelos gets to see the various troops in the district.

SP,

I was assigned to them temporarily as their UC when the UC assigned to my pack and the troop passed away. Their meetings were on a bad nite for me, so I couldn't visit like I wanted to. The few times I did try to help, I was essentially told I don't what I'm talking about. So the unit leadership and the parents still with the unit (don't ask) don't really want me around.

But I do think I will encourage the CM and the 4th grade WDL to contact the troop to try and get them involved. Hopefully they won't have to beg to be invited to things.

How do you get a troop involved in the Webelos-to-Scout Transition?

OK, some of you may remember the stories about my pack's CO's troop when I could post as Eagle92. Last year there was some interaction with the pack in that they did invite the Webelos to a camp out and a meeting. But this year there has been nothing, absolutely NOTHING (emphasis). We've asked for den chiefs, and the ones we got were more like Cubs than Scouts. They have not attended the last 3 district and council camporees, which have Webelos can attend. And the last one they did attend, I had to beg them to invite Webelos. So den chiefs have not worked out, trying to get invited to things haven't worked out. How can we get them interested in the process?

I know the troop is losing scouts. One of my former Cubs transferred over a few months back, and another one will be transferring shortly. He was encouraged to stay with him until his SM Conference and Tenderfoot BOR, telling them what's happening and why he will be transferring.

Believe it or not, the CC, SM, and an ASM with my son's troop is concerned about that troop because the Scouts are transferring to us. Plus out of the three Webelos who will be Crossing Over next month, 2 have decided to come to our troop, and one wants to visit us and another troop before deciding. So none of the this years Crossover's are going to the CO's troop. And as I mentioned the leadership with my son's troop is concerned because we do not want a reputation for "stealing." We want them to have an active, successful program. But we are not goign to turn away any Scouts who want to join us.

HMM I'm mixed on this. On one hand, you got friends together, but if even with a TG, it is challenging at times to teach them.

My troop growing up tried the NSP twice: once when National was trying out the process with some units prior to 1989, and once when a brand new troop asked to hang with us until they got on their feet. In the first instance, after 6 months we went to mixed aged patrols, and in the second instance within a year, the two troops merged and we went to the mixed aged patrol.

Now my son's troop has 2 patrols: NSP and "expereinced" Scouts. Since has only recently only had enough to split into two patrols, that is what they did. So essentially the Scouts have not had any expereince in a mixed age patrol. Going to get real interesting when all the new Cubs cross over as we will be moving some to the "expereinced" patrol who are still Tenderfoot.

One thing that made my troop growing up successful with mixed aged patrols was that when they visited the troop as Webelos, heck when anyone visited the troop, we assigned a Scout to be their buddy and work with them for that meeting. Ditto when they went on their first campout. Usually when they joined the troop, they wanted to be with their buddy and join his patrol.

Replace the Jambo patch with an award that represents the true pinnacle scouting experience: e.g., a constellation patch with star devices for patrol/crew overnights independent of adults.

Unfortunately BSA took away the ability of patrols to camp independently from adults a few years back.

LeCastor,

Back in our day, it did mean something to get elected. It was harder to get it, and it might take 2, 3, even 4 years to get in because of the formula used for electing youth at the time: You may only vote for 1/2 of those eligible, and they must get 50% of the votes. Usually 1/2 those eligible would be elected. So it meant something when you did finally get in (third time was the charm for me )

Now you can vote for everyone eligible. Heck even the troop trouble maker can get in because peers feel sorry for him if he gets left behind.

Interesting topic. I can see where for some, American Indian Affairs (AIA for short, what it was called when I was very active) takes over and they lose the sense of service. I've seen that happen with one lodge's AIA group, to the point that many do not want to associate with them.

But I also know how folks involved in AIA over the years HAVE (emphasis) provided service not only to Scouting, but also to the Native American Community.

When I was active, both as a youth and adult, I was involved in AIA, and we did lots of Cub Scout ceremonies, as well as demonstrations, dances, etc I still remember performing in front of over 10,000 folks at one event the council was hosting. Yes it's a lot of fun, but it is also a lot of work.

As for helping the Native American community, OA came about during a time when it was illegal for Native Americans to do some things. OA members involved in AIA have been involved in researching, and at times keeping alive. I've read and have been told stories on how folks worked with the Native American communities so much, that they have been adopted into families. I know folks who have brought back lost craft skills, assisted in research for filing for state and federal recognition status, and are members of different Native American societies that provide specific services to the specific Native American community.

AIA isn't for everyone. And yes some folks can go overboard. But it also provides a way to serve.

I was told that the old CS WB course was designed for trainers, CS RT Commissioners, and other folks who were involved with the development of CS Leaders, not neccessarily direct contact with Cubs.

I would need to talk to one of my friends who did that one, as well as the old BS one.

All professional training is done via national. Weather your course is only done at the national training center, or done somewhere in the regions, it is all run through them.

And as Tahawk mentioned, national will select the groups of folks that the local council volunteers will interview and select as SE.

While the transfer form is nice because it does have the leader fromt he old unit showing the advancment that has been done, it is NOT (emphasis) necessary.

As Stosh stated, the BSHB is THE (emphasis) master record that all other records; a unit's records and council's SCOUTNET records are suppose to be based upon.

I know we have a Scout in my troop, who got so ticked off with his old one, that he "burned some bridges." Luckily he was a new Scout with no rank earned, and only 2 MBs from a MB college.

Fred,

Usually SEs will move every three to five years.

Only exceptions I've seen to that is

A) It's a "Sunset position" in that it's where they want to retire for whatever reasons. One retired SE I knew grew up in the council as a youth, and moved around as a pro. His council came up, and he got it. after about 10 or 12 years, he retired and is still in that council.

B) They are screw ups and are kept in a position until retirement or a national level one opens up where they cannot really screw up anything. My former SE boss was so bad, that he couldn't get out of my council for another SE position. National ended up giving him a position where he couldn't screw up any councils.

C) They screw up so bad, that they need to leave. My old DFS boss eventually got promoted to SE. Within 2 years, he totally and completely screwed so bad, he resigned as SE and was demoted to a FD.

#1 WELCOME TO THE FORUMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ( and yes I'm yelling at ya )

#2 If memory serves, since you are in my era of Scouting you know how memory gets with age , Skill Awards were considered "Advancement," were "Restricted Items," and you needed an Advancement Report to get them. I remember what a pain it was to get replacements when I traded my belt with them on them. SM had to get replacements for me, at least the ones he could get his hands on. So they were designed for the youth.

#3 Only adults I ever saw wearing Skill Awards, were those who just became adults, i.e. 18-19 year olds. My troop's policy was youth wore the green belts with the Skill Awards since it was advancement. Adults wore either the green belts, without the SAs, or leather belts. Most wore the leather belts, and one of the first things I did after my ECOH, was go and get a leather belt with an Eagle Buckle.

#4 If you wear a current Eagle buckle, be careful as they break easily. I'm on #3 right now, and before last Monday haven't worn it in years.

Go up the chain, i.e. Commissioner, DE etc to find out. While I would have no problems whatsoever if someone with Intro to Outdoor Leader Skills, or even Webelos Leader Outdoor Training, taking over, some councils may have issues.

I know when I first became a TCDL, I had to go through B.A.L.O.O. even thoughI've had a bunch of outdoor training on the Boy Scout level, as both youth and adult, and was the district training chair doing the Boy Scout leader training. That was the council policy under that SE.

But now,. I think the council would OK with someone with the Boy Scout training doing Cub work.

Caveat: I have not gone through Woodbadge. I went through the old Brownsea 22 course for Scouts back in the day. After hearing about what is done at WB21C form those who have gone through it, here is what I think should be done.

1) BRING IT BACK OUTSIDE! (emphasis) "OUTING is three-fourths of ScOUTING" as GBB said. You can have classes outside.

2) Not only bring back basic T-2-1 Skills, but put a major emphasis on having the leaders mastering those skills to bring back to their troops. Have them cook their own meals, plan campfires, do orienteering, etc.

3) By doing #2 above, this will promote the Patrol Method.