Eagle94-A1

A bit of a spin off, but let's have some fun.

Anyone read today's (5-6-15) Bryon On Scouting Blog and the ban on water guns unless you are shooting at non living targets and wearing eye protection?

Sorry, but in my neck of the woods, water guns are used to keep Cub cooled down at day camp, and help out tremendously. And even with the water guns and other water cooling devices, we still had folks going home early due to heat exhaustion.

Your thoughts?

Council camporee was this past weekend, and Wilderness Survival was the theme. Only complaints I heard were A) need more time to build shelters B) need to make sure other patrols do not move the geocaches to get to the first aid event, and C) want more time on the tomahawk toss range.  Other than those complaints everyone had a blast.

Wonder if BP was amused by this?

 

He was probably to busy driving the Germans nuts on the continent. I read somewhere that just the rumor of him coming to the continent drove German counterintelligence nuts.

I think  there was a very good reason he was on the Operation Sea Lion hit list in WWII.

Stosh,

Yes I'm referring to adult volunteers. Because in my neck of the woods, camporees are inter-patrol competitions and, at least from what I've seen, patrols need every member, or former member in my son's case this weekend, that is available to compete. Which is why I am for adults running camporee events; THE CAMPOREE IS FOR THEM! (emphasis) But I can see youth running events. Heck the OA runs the trading post at our district camporee, and at council camporee one chapter was running the tomahawk throwing event. Although those folks were the  "G.A.S.ers" ( Gray Area Scouters age 18-20). Now our Webeloree has troops running individual events for the Webelos, so I know the youth are capable of doing the job.

Now I do  think the organizers should plan events with the youths' input, making the youth WANT (emphasis) to do them. I remember one year the camporee chief decided to turn the camporee into a MB weekend. VERY poor attendance as the Scouts wanted competition as opposed to classes. Thankfully the other adults that loved the MB weekend haven't been put in charge.

As for SPL's attending RTs, I'm cool with that. Heck my son and 1 other youth were the only SPLs at a summer camp leaders' meeting that specifically stated the SPLs should attend. He offered input and was about to raise some 'cane when they were trying to limit archery to 13+ when the guidebook didn't have that age limit. Yep he and others in the troop want to be Robin Hood.

I'd even go further. I think the OA Chapter Chief should attend district committee meetings. We had that going briefly, but one meeting turned nasty and the OA chief and his dad said "Never again." And no chapter chief has been back since.

Again I agree with you that the district needs to listen. think they went overboard saying that you should run the event next year. And I admit I mixed Mozart's post with yours. His patrol being threatened with disqualification is appalling.

In retrospect, I think my post may have been misinterpreted. Let me try again, as this is my philosophy running events.

1) I ALWAYS want to hear what the scouts think about activities. i want to know what they liked, what they didn't like, and what they would like to do. If we do not do what the Scouts want, then why will they come?

2) If there are problems I want to know about them ASAP. If I can fix the problem then and there, I am going to. Best example is when I didn't plan on Webelos fishing, and there was a mutiny. We were able to solve that that day. But sometimes a problem needs to be corrected for the next year. Example of that was the idea for 'Citizenship Class" where the Cubs practiced flag etiquette in preparation for doing the flag ceremonies. And sometimes folks need to think outside the box. Best one of that was a camporee chief who had arranged a Blackhawk from Fort Bragg to show up.

3) Biggest problem I've encountered is having enough staff to run events and make them good. I hate having folks have to wait for event to be done, or worse not having enough events due to staffing.More staffing equats to more opportunties for the Scouts. And it means less stress on the adults running the events.

Mozart,

if the elecion is done properly, it's not a popularity contest. I too have seen worthy youth get not get elected. I saw a lot more of it under the old election rules. Heck I got elected on the third go.

Part of the problem IMHO is that I am seeing more and more folks seeing it as a check off item to Eagle, and not as being selected as an Honor Camper as the OA is suppose to be, a Honor Camper society.

I know I had one SM PO'd at me and the OA election team when it was discussed what being in the OA really ment. Half of those eligible decided to back out before the vote. SM  said we shouldn't have said anything and just let them get elected without them knowing what we do.

I'm confused, what exactly can Cubs and Webelos do now that they couldn't before.  I would love to see a side by side to see exactly what changed.

Mash,

Boating was restricted to district/council events which required either a NCS certified Aquatics Director, or an NCS certfied CS Aquatics Supervisor.

Now, According to the Guide to Safe Scouting, page 24, "Cub Scout activities afloat are limited to council, district, pack, or den events that do not include moving water or float trips (expeditions). Safety Afloat standards apply to the use of canoes, kayaks, rowboats, rafts, floating tubes, sailboats, motorboats (including waterskiing), and other small craft, but do not apply to transportation on large commercial vessels such as ferries and cruise ships."

What I find hillarious is that the second link's  "AGE-APPROPRIATE GUIDELINES FOR SCOUTING ACTIVITIES"  still states that boating activities are for the district/ council level only still.

Guess they need to update the 2015 Age Appropriate Guidelines again.

My sons' OA ceremony group has two teams--the main one chose to do Sioux regalia(here in NW FL), and the other chose local Seminole inspired regalia.  That said, they don't pretend that the Sioux regalia is local. 

You reminded me of a lodge I ran into at the 1994 NOAC.  The Lodge straddled the GA-FL border and they went local. Depending upon which side of the border the ceremonialist lived on, he was either Creek (GA) or Seminole (FL) 

As someone who has organized district level events, as well as complained about them too, I will say the following.

1) The Scouts need to be listened to as THEY ARE OUR CUSTOMERS! (EMPHASIS, OK may be a little shouting )  Telling htem to shut up or be DQed is outright wrong, and telling them to run the event next year going overboard a bit.

2) In addition to complaints, I suggest ways to improve the event be offered with the complaint. Sometimes people need others to think outside the box. I know someof the events I ran had problems, and I loved it when others gave me ideas to improve.

3) IF possible, offer to volunteer. I know it's not always possible. heck I've had to step back a lot due to family and/or unit issues. But in my expereince, a lack of volunteers is usually the cause of 99.99999% of the problems.

National OA is promoting lodges to look at local nations, whether current or historical, and to go local. Some lodges have been doing it for years,others are now starting to. I'm fortunate in that my home lodge growing up, and local lodge currently, have good relations with local Nations, and are working to make it more local specific.

But from first hand experiencing it is a tough sell. Research can be a pain, but the internet has definitely made it a heck of a lot easier to access drawings and descriptions from the colonial period, and photos from Western Expansion period.  I remember spending way to much time in archives back in the day. But there are times when you  do need to go to them. So research is one reason for making a switch to local Native American nations is a tough sell.

Another reason for the tough sell to convert is what I call "Hollywood factor." Even today there are stereotypes on what a native American should look like based upon the old westerns. heck even non-Plains Native Americans got into it. I have postcards date the 1950s, 60s, and 70s from such places a Cherokee NC and upper NY state where the Cherokee or Iroquois are dressed up as Plains Indians. I know my chapter chief wants to spend our regalia budget on going local, but we do not know how tough a sell we will be having at the next chapter meeting.

A third reason for the tough sell is making authentic local regalia can not only be expensive, but time consuming, It's easier and cheaper to repair or replace individual regalia items than to essentially start all over. I spent over 3 years beginning through the process and it was never finished. Part of it was lack of time and money. Part of it was lack of interest. and part of it was the fact that some people had a stereotypical view, and didn't want to change.

A fourth reason I've encountered is resistance form the local nations. As already mentioned, while some OA members and lodges do it correctly. unfortunately more do it incorrectly. Heck my lodge growing up had to disband the dance team at one point because they were doing so much stupid stuff, there were complaints from the local nation. We spent a lot of time developing a relationship with them, and took their concerns seriously. it took about 5 or 6 years to get a team restarted, and the Houma did have some reservations about helping us. It worked out very well long term.

Mozart,

You'd be surprised at what councils allow and how BSA publications contradict each other. Look at the Guide to Safe Scouting. There is no mention of Cubs being able to do archery. Only that :

"Archery, and Knife and Tomahawk Throwing

These are approved activities for Boy Scouts and Venturers following the Sweet 16 of BSA Safety."

So some lawyer could probably argue that Archery shouldn't be done by Cub Scouts at all since there is no mention of Cubs being allowed to do archery in.

BUT as we all know, there is an Archery Belt Loop that will be around for approximately 3 more weeks. Plus it's taught at CS NCS programs as a viable activity. PLUS the current 2015 printing of the Shooting Sports Manual states Archery can be done at the Cub Level. So another lawyer could coutner claim it is allowed.

As for tomahawks, my Cubs were doing it this weekend at a council event. I didn't have a May 1, 2015 copy of the G2SS available, so I thought that too changed.  I know my Middle son ticked off my Oldest son's entire troop. He got 4/5 tomahawks on the target, with 2 bulls eyes, and would have gotten the 5th one in the target if he did't try and do a "Robin Hood."  His 5th throw hit the handle of one of the bull's eyes and bounced off. He scored more points than the three patrols combined. Youngest and Oldest didn't do too shabby either. Both got 3/5 in the target, and Oldest did have a bull's eye.

Ok, gotta find directions to make a tomahawk target for the backyard.  I now have 2 tomahawks to throw, and the kids told me they'd rather throw tomahawks than go fishing!  

Archery was restricted to district/council events since for as long as I could remember.

And I don't remember Cubs being able to do tomahawks at all.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE CUB SCOUTS AND AQUATICS CHANGES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

( And yes that is me shouting with glee at you!   )

When I first heard about the new Cub Scout Aquatics electives, I was stating that under the present G2SS policies, there would be no way that they could be earned except at those councils that provide the opportunity, which mine doesn't.

When I polled my Cubs, these were the overall ratings.

1) Fishing by a landslide.  In fact the first year we did the Webelos Woods program, it didn't include fishing. THERE WAS A MUTINY! (emphasis.) They rather fish than do water games.

2) Archery.

3) BB Guns.

Archery and BB Guns were close. Some of the boys own their own .22s so the bb guns aren't a big deal.

AndI used a  3 man staff for each areas. 1, preferably 2,  RSOs a 2nd adult with firearm expereince if I didn't have 2 RSOs ( we got a lot of cops in my district, ) and an older scout to help out.. That's in addition to any Adults working with the dens.

We tried to have 5 stations going at a time.

I met one Sea Scout whose goal was to be a "Triple Eagle" by eanring Eagle, Quartermaster, and Silver. While he was registered in both a ship and a crew, the bulk of his work for Silver was done with his ship as the crew was the summer camp staff. 

I honestly do not know what to think.

Boy Scout leaders tend to look as me funny when I say being a Cub Scout leader is the hardest volunteer position I ever had. I've been a Cub leader for 6 years now, and I am burned out.

I admit, part of it is my fault. In addition to being a DL, I've been day camp PD three times, day camp staffer an additional 3 times, and CS RT commissioner for 3 years.

Part of it is the fact that Cub Scouts IS adult leader intensive. We do just about everything for the Cubs. And whereas Boy Scouts serves terms of office as PL, SPL, etc, Cub Scout leaders tend to be there until their sosn age out or quit.  

But part of the burn out is my district. There are two major district events, Cubmobile and Pinewood Derby. And for the past 3 or 4 years, the activities chair has kept changing the dates for these events. Once upon a time, the dates were written in stone: first Sunday in November for Cubmobile, last Saturday in January  for PWD.

Cubmobile keeps getting pushed further and further up to the point that this year it was originally scheduled BEFORE all the round ups were finished. We got them to push back the date, but there was a conflict with another district activity that same weekend that affected 2/5s of the Cubs. As for PWD, while we have asked to move back the dates to take advantage of the LOwe's Workshops ( the local store always wondered why they never had Cub Scouts attending the workshops, because they were done AFTER the PWD). we can live with the last weekend in January. BUT when you move up the PWD so far into January that A) the packs are just getting back from Christmas break, and B) the college students that work the event are not even nack in school, there are issues. Me and other pack leaders have felt like idiots because we plan stuff and then have to change at the last minute in order to participate with these traditional activities.

On a positive note, I think the pack's leadership has finally come to the conclusion to "do their own thing" because of the new program. Because everything needs to be coordinated and a set pattern of 2 meetings, 1 Go See It, and 1 pack meeting are required for 7 months to earn rank, we will be ignoring district events unless it coincied with what we are doing. And my pack is not the only one.

Sorry for the rant, but it was good to vent.

<<When I went to NCS, my camp was a dysfunctional one, despite having a CD for 20 years.>>

 

 

 

This suggests that the basic problem was poor choice of a Camp Director. Yes. Problem was that she would ticked everyone off that worked with her, and nobody ever wanted the job as a result.  When I was the DE, I did find someone to take her CS RT commissioner duties, I thought that would help the day camp situation by having her focus on that. I was wrong.

 

 

Yesterday my district had another scheduled Day Camp Staff Planning Meeting.   The only people who attended were myself and a Den Leader in my pack,  who are jointly doing the Program Director job. I feel your pain. been there too.

 

We spent 2+ hours refining the program elements we expect to use,  and planning how to fill the holes we currently have in the program.  We dropped some things that we thought we could  do better with another activity (dropping proposed basket making for field sports,  for example.) Do you have any input from last year's Cubs attending day camp?  That would be a great source of program input.

 

I'm e-mailing the DE and District Commissioner to keep them informed of leadership failures,  and to make them aware that my partner and I will NOT be filling in for absent leadership  ----we're already DOING that!  They probably know that already. My DE and DC knew the situation I got into, and it was one of the reasons they recruited me for the PD job.

 

Deadlines to order t-shirts and such are coming up,  and I have no reason to believe anyone is going to do that.

 

Training for shooting sports is coming up ---and I'm not aware of anyone recruiting volunteers to take it.  I hope you get volunteers for that ASAP!  My camp is in the same situation as you to my knowledge. We don't even have the corrrect registartion forms out , and day camp is approx. 7 weeks away.

 

And then there needed leadership for next year.  The current Camp Director is on their second year and should be replaced for next year.  That argues for having someone working for her THIS YEAR to start getting experience with the job. You are so correct. the guy that replaced me only had rifle range expereince workign day camp, and he was overwhelmed, esp. since the CD didn't do squat. I had to come back as PD when he got bumped to CD. BUT the next person to be PD had 0 day camp expereince. There were some challenges last summer. I spent more time running ranges since I was qualified than I did with my Tiger.

 

 

What we have is a failing program  ---something I've been warning about for 16 months or so.  New district leadership is beginning to deal with that,  but effective leadership takes time to identify and gain experience. Hopefully your district leadership realizes that the district is more than the Boy Scout troops. That's my problem.

 

My current aim is to define and limit what I do and to inform district leadership of what they can expect from us.  THEY will have to deal with other leadership and planning issues.  I don't want to be drawn into being responsible for other failing leadership. Do the best you can and focus on day camp.. Remember, it takes time to turn things around. And make sure you get a successor who fully unerstands what is going on. My first successor as PD didn't, and set us back as a result.; Very frustrating, especially since unlike the CD, I gave him copies of EVERYTHING (emphasis) I did for 2 years. I essentially handed him a full program that the kids loved.

 

GOOD LUCK! (and that is me screaming at you with the nbest of intentions as I know the muck you are dealing with)

Specifically, what is the big deal that requires a Director's presence for 3 days at a national school?

What national hand-holding takes place 'in person' that can't be learned from a good workbook and a few online videos?

In all honesty, it depends.

When I went to NCS, my camp was a dysfunctional one, despite having a CD for 20 years. While I had a lot fo expereince from summer camp staffing and assisting with day camps in the past, I learned a heck of a lot.

Yes I read the books etc, etc. Some of the books were common sense. BUT some of the stuff was down right complicated and legalistic. The staff helped with that stuff.

BUT the networking, exchanging of ideas, etc was the real benefit. Since I was the program director, I brought my rough draft of the program for camp for review and improvements. Again, my camp was dysfunctional, and I revamped it entirely.

Capotes and matchcoats?

I hemmed my oldest son's pants high when he became a Webelos I and sold his old uniform to his brother.

I've had to hem them thrice in the past 3 years. And they need hemming again! Kid isn't even 12 yet.

I remember sitting on BORs as aScout way back in the day. We didn't the word about the no youth on BORs until about 1992, three years after the switch.

Fred,

Don't know why national changed the policy. In my troop PLs and membes of the Leadership Corps sat on them up to First Class. After that adults only. I personally thinkit was a good idea because as a PL, I got ideas to improve and what not to do. As an LC member, I got to here where the problems were, and get ideas from the Scouts to improve.

Stosh,

Me personally I disagree with the PL sitting in, or even the SM, sitting on BORs. But I'm use to other PLs and/or LC members being the chairman of the BORs. Just as it can sometimes be an issue to criticise the SM with him in the room, it can be uncomfortable with the PL inthe room.

Then again, I knowof one Eagle who told off his SM at the SM Conference, then told his EBOR how the SM is causing the troop to implode with the SM in the room.  Wish the BOR would have listened.

Fehler,

That's how Tigers initially started in August 1982. It was suppose to be a separate program for 2nd Graders that did  their own meetings and Go-See-Its. Tigers initially had their own promise and motto,uniform, and when you completed the program you first wore a square "Tiger Cub Graduate" patch as temp insignia, and later a Tiger Cub Graduate strip.  Heck you can still see an occasional Scouter with an service star with an orange backing for their one year in Tigers.

No matter what you try to do, it will end up with a Den-Pack meeting focus.

Thank you for the info.

To use an infamous quoe in the Star Wars universe, "I've got a bad feeling about this." Why do I have a feeling that national is going to unveil Lions  next month or August 1, 2015 when they traditionally come out with new programs.

In regards to burn out, as most know I'm a Scouting addict with 32 years in as both youth and adult. After 6 years of Cub Scouts (3 years with oldest, 2 years with middle, and 1 year with youngest sons) I AM BURNT OUT ON CUB SCOUTS!  I've already sent in my notice that May 25th will be my last event as a DL, and I'm switching over to pack committee. June 8th will be my first troop meeting as an ASM, adn I cannot wait!

William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt said it best about Scouting with the two following quotes: 

"OUTING is three-fourths of ScOUTING." 3rd ed. hanbook ( emphasis is mine. Ever sicne the current HB misqouted GBB, I Bold OUTING to show the math.)

"ScOUTING IS OUTING!" New Orlean Area Council Scout Show, circa 1990 ( memory is getting to me and can't remember exact yearand emphasis is in original speech.)

My son's troop a has tripled in size in the past 16 months. Why? I would like to think we are a "Hiking and Camping Troop."  We are far from perfect, heck we "killed" one patient when doing last first aid scenarios last campout among other "challenges." And "Organized Chaos" is describing the troop very politely. A "Charley Foxtrot" would be a better description.

But we go camping every month save January. Because of we traditionally get the bulk of our new Scouts in December Cross overs, we have a lock in instead to get the new guys up to spead with gear needed for cold weather camping. We do rock climbing at a wall, and either first aid or ILST during the lock in. We've had transfers from another troop that, by JTE standards, is a better troop than us. We don't focus on advancement, we focus on the outdoors and FUN. That is what the Scouts want, and that is what we try to give them.

Have we lost Scouts, yep.  I know two Scouts who were in my son's patrol on the first camp out left shortly thereafter because they didn't like having to do the work at camp, i.e. cooking, cleaning, etc. But we've gotten more who do want to camp, than those 2. 

Sorry I can't help, but I do have questions.

1) How is Lions working out for you?

2) What is the program like?

3) What are they allowed to do? Not Do?

4) How is retention?

Parents, especialy the helicopter variety, ARE part of the problem. I've encountered too many parents who only want their sons to Eagle as soon as possible so that is checked off the list of to do things. One year we had a MB weekend instead of a camporee. All of the scouts I talked to hated it, but a lot of the parents loved it. Thankfully we never had a second weekend 'cause word got back to the PTB that the Scouts wanted competition, not classes.

And I also put some of the blame on MBCs who aren't trained, and do not know what is actually expected of them. I admit I've done 2 merit badge colleges, and a daylong Indian Lore MB Seminar as a fundraiser. In both cases unless work was done prior to the event, you got a partial.