BrentAllen

Eamonn, I am so sorry to hear of your loss. They truly are members of our families. Like scoutldr, we have cats. My wife got India, a Bombay cat, as a graduation present, the year before we were married. We had her for 17 years, until we had to put her down on December 19, 2005 - one of the hardest days of my life. She is buried under the Japanese Maple in the backyard, which turns the gold color of her eyes every fall. I couldn''t stand the house without a pet, so we quickly found Belle and Binks and brought them into our family. When we lost India, a friend shared this with me. Hope it helps. http://www.indigo.org/rainbowbridge_ver2.html Just this side of heaven is a place called Rainbow Bridge. When an animal dies that has been especially close to someone here, that pet goes to Rainbow Bridge. There are meadows and hills for all of our special friends so they can run and play together. There is plenty of food, water and sunshine, and our friends are warm and comfortable. All the animals who had been ill and old are restored to health and vigor; those who were hurt or maimed are made whole and strong again, just as we remember them in our dreams of days and times gone by. The animals are happy and content, except for one small thing; they each miss someone very special to them, who had to be left behind. They all run and play together, but the day comes when one suddenly stops and looks into the distance. His bright eyes are intent; His eager body quivers. Suddenly he begins to run from the group, flying over the green grass, his legs carrying him faster and faster. You have been spotted, and when you and your special friend finally meet, you cling together in joyous reunion, never to be parted again. The happy kisses rain upon your face; your hands again caress the beloved head, and you look once more into the trusting eyes of your pet, so long gone from your life but never absent from your heart. Then you cross Rainbow Bridge together.... Author unknown...

I guess that depends on your definition of "engage." I think providing a Troop program that meets once a week and camps once a month is engaging. Others may think the SM should drive by the boy''s house, drag him off his sofa, take the video game controller out of his hands and transport him to a Troop meeting. Still others might have an interpretation somewhere in between those two. In our new troop, if a boy is going to miss a meeting, he needs to let his PL know - common courtesy. If he doesn''t, the PL gives him a call to let him know he was missed, and find out why he wasn''t at the meeting. If a Scout misses 4 meetings without a reasonable excuse, he gets a call from the SM to see what''s going on. The SM will probably know if the Scout is going to stay or leave after that conversation. I don''t plan on carrying boys on the charter that aren''t participating. Missing meetings during a sports season due to a meeting time conflict is acceptable - just let the Troop know what''s going on.

So, if I read that correctly, if a Scout is not engaged by his unit leadership on a regular basis, he is not considered active? If Scout Johnny Noshow never comes to a meeting, where the leadership informs the Scouts of upcoming events and conducts SM conferences, then he is not considered active? I really don''t see where that puts any additional onus on a leader to get a disinterested boy back involved in Scouting. If 90% of your boys are showing up and participating regularly, I don''t see where the leadership has failed, and must jump through hoops to get boys who would rather be home playing XBox back into Scouting. If I wanted to use a % of attendance as a check-off for active (which I don''t, at least not right now since we have very high attendance), I could. I would argue I engage the boys, inform them of upcoming events, conduct SM conferences and make contact with them at regular Troop meetings and campouts. If a boy doesn''t show up regularly, he has not been "engaged by his unit leadership on a regular basis" due to actions of his own choosing, and would therefore not be considered active. If a boy was determined to be inactive, his dues would be refunded, pro-rated.

So, let me see if I understand this correctly. UCs should be someone who is an experienced Scouter, who is ready to make Scouting an avocation. We are 2/3 short of UCs nationally. Trainers should be experienced Scouters, who have already made Scouting an avocation. So, how many trainers are we short, nationally? That has been the problem I have seen with training - getting qualified trainers to volunteer. When they don''t show up, you are left with subpar training and two choices - go home and complain about the quality of the training, or get as much out of it as you can and seek out others (Roundtable, etc.) to fill in the blanks, which is what anarchist was saying. I would suggest a couple of changes if we really want to improve our training classes. 1. Break TDCs into separate sessions for different groups - Cub level, Boy Scout level, etc. Right now, it is just a generic public speaking course, including using some visual aids. Course curriculums aren''t included or even addressed. Program specific TDCs could easily include the curriculum. 2. Copy the Red Cross. They have put the First Aid/CPR/AED training sessions on DVD to standardize the training. Trainers are now facilitators. They are still just as important, but their roles have changed from actually teaching the skills, to observing that the skills are being learned and practiced properly. The BSA could put more classes on DVD and allow the trainers to be facilitators to lead discussions and answer questions after viewing the material. "Skills practice" could include going through the steps of planning out a Den meeting for DL''s, or planning a Pack meeting for CM''s, for example.

I know an old SM who would pull the PLs out of their patrols as soon as their leadership term expired. They could be elected to serve two terms, but at the end of their term, they moved into the Troop Junior Leadership Corps. As members of the JLC, they would fill positions as SPL, ASPL, Troop Guides and Instructors. They have responsibilites in the Troop - they don''t just sit around and make fun of the younger Scouts. He felt it was a bad idea to leave those previous PLs in the patrol, that they wouldn''t really like being in the patrol any longer, serving under another PL. This also gave encouragement to the slightly older boys in the patrols to try to get elected PL so they too could eventually move up into the JLC with the older boys. I think this method would go along way toward preventing the situation you are looking at - the older boys dumping all the responsibility on the youngest Scouts. Another idea - only allow boys who are at least First Class to be eligible to be elected PL.

So, John - who is conducting the training in your district? Paid staff or volunteers? Is it their job, or voluntary service? Are new leaders expecting professional training sessions? To quote you, nearly all trainers are "VOLUNTEERS, not someone with a job."

AC, My bad - I thought you were talking about the council in LongHaul''s post. From the FAQs link: 3. Question: I''ve been a Scoutmaster for 10 years, and really know everything. Can''t I get a waiver of the required training? Answer: No. "Grandfathering" of existing leaders was discussed extensively while this program was being developed. The overwhelming judgment of ALL of the volunteers involved in designing the Required Training Program was that existing leaders, no matter how experienced, should be subject to the same training requirements as new leaders. The Council Executive Board concurred in this finding. Interesting how the two different councils are handeling that issue.

I think I have the same book as allengr1024. This one belonged to my old SM, and he gave it to me when he swore me in as SM of our new Troop. 1959 edition, 1967 printing. He wrote a nice inscription in the front. Lisa, if you can find a copy of this book, I highly recommend it. Great games and other ideas in it. This section, under Patrol Recognition, outlines a system of points to be awarded for: Attendance at Troop Activities --Troop meeting - % of patrol present -- % of patrol in complete uniform --Troop hike - % of patrol present times 2 Attendance at Patrol Activities (sort of the same as above) Dues --% of patrol members paid in full Advancement --Second Class - 100 points --First Class - 150 points --Each merit badge - 50 points Patrol Games and Special Competitions --First Place - 50 or 100 points --Second Place - 30 or 60 points --Third Place - 10 or 30 points Special Features - outstanding patrol projects or such, awarded by the SM at his discretion. "Experience has shown that it is unwise to include any penalties in a point contest of this kind. A positive stimulus is much better than a negative threat or punishment." The book stresses the success of the program is in letting the boys (PLC) set up the criteria and points. It also suggests a wall chart of some sort to let the patrols see where they stand. I like the idea included of painting a frieze along the top of the wall of a river, with a tree, a boulder, and other items at regular intervals, representing point intervals. Each patrol is represented as a canoe paddling toward the end of the river. First canoe to the finish line wins. Run it for two or three months and start over. If you run it too long and a patrol gets way behind, they will lose interest.

AC, No, the old guys have to complete the training as well. No grandfathering. "we have made a conscious decision that we would rather allow a Unit to disband than maintain the Unit with untrained leaders." Wow. That is pretty strong. I agree with the sentiment, but I don''t know that many others in my district do. Now, if we could only require full uniforms, and a Troop inspection score of 90% or better to get rechartered. [sorry, I didn''t want to disappoint my detractors and not get in something about uniforming. :-) ] I think one outcome of this would be to weed out some of the dead wood in Troops and Packs. Most units probably have some adults who say they want to be part of the leadership team, but then never go to training, and only show up about half the time. As a unit leader, you want adults you can count on to deliver the program. This new requirement might help units replace those guys with new, motivated leaders, or at least get the dead wood of the charter and save a few bucks.

Dadof5, To me, what is even more amazing is our CD never had a son in Scouting. He has one child, a daughter who is off to college, but no sons. He was an Eagle Scout with 5 palms, and went into leadership with the Troop right after he aged out. He is one of those really special people you just enjoy being around. He has done just about everything there is in Scouting, but you would never know it just running into him - he is very humble. Face it - you don''t get invited to be on 12 staffs unless you are a team player with a great personality! The small world part of this story is my dad and my old SM (from my troop as a youth) knew this CD from back in the 70''s, but the CD didn''t know I was his son. My dad has been out of Scouting for awhile, but he is going to our WB Reunion this weekend. He, my old SM and two of their old WB patrol mates from a 1975 Antelope Patrol will all be there. Even their coach/counselor is going to show up - it should be fun! They are all in their 60''s and 70''s - I hope I''m doing the same when I hit that age.

Congratulations! Those beads will signify not only your knowledge and experience, but also your dedication to Scouting. Well done! I used to be a Fox, and a good ol Fox too!

"if you volunteer to help teach you get credit for teaching and taking" This DOES apply to Wilderness First Aid. If you are First Aid/CPR/AED Instructor trained, you can attend WFA as an instructor and student, and receive credit as both. The course is broken down into sections, as is SLT; it can be taught with 6 - 8 instructors, and you need "victims" as well. So, as an instructor, you are going to be sitting around listening to all the other instruction, except for the section or two you teach. Sorry for the interruption - you are now returned to your regular programming.

Dadof5, A little test for you and your sons: 1. Name the 5 richest men in the world (or the US, if you choose) 2. Name the CEO''s of 5 of the largest Fortune 500 companies. 3. Name the last 5 Heisman Trophy winners. 4. Name the last 5 World Series MVP''s. 5. Name the last 5 Super Bowl MVP''s. Unless you are a stock broker and a total ESPN junkie, most of us could not answer those questions. Now, try these questions. 1. Name 5 teachers who made a big impact in your life. 2. Name 5 Scout leaders who made a big impact in your life. I could answer the second set without even thinking about it. The point is, which group of people make a real difference in our lives - those in the first set of questions, or those in the second? I understand the reason for your post, and I agree with your point. Just don''t forget the real value of those local role models.

"Interesting, I''''ve never felt I had your respect." From the "Are they ALL important?" thread: "Barry - you are employing the Method, and I applaud you." I guess we see what we want to see.

Our Council has a Wood Badge area at one of our Council camps. We do not have a permanent structure (pavillion) for the Troop Learning Area. We have plenty of money to construct one, but we haven''t, and won''t for several reasons. The main reason is "Tarp Day" is a big part of the team building process that takes place for the staff, to help build the staff into a high performance team. As you probably remember from your WB training, there are 4 stages in the development of a high performance team - forming, storming, norming, performing. Tarp Day plays a big part is getting the staff team through those stages. As I mentioned, we hoist 2 huge tarps that overlap each other, for the TLA. This is no small feat! We also put up canvas tarps at the 8 patrol sites, another 40 x 60 tarp in the Quartermaster area for the staff, and other tarps around the staff tents (the staff stay in summer camp tents on platforms). It is a lot of work, and requires the team to really work together to get it all done on time. Hopefully you will have a CD who recognizes the need for the staff team to go through those same stages, so they can come together as a high performance team in order to deliver a fantastic program to the participants. I was extremely fortunate in that the CD for the course I staffed had been on 12 other course staffs. He was the most experienced staffer in our council! He started staffing back in the mid 70''s. He was hesitant to become a CD because once you do, your staffing career is essentially over, unless you get invited back as an advisor. I think having a lunch with your CD is a great idea. The worst thing you can do is say yes and later find out you have to pull out. That really leaves the CD and the staff team in a bind. That happened to us but was resolved after a couple of stressful weeks for the CD. A little story about how loyal and devoted a member can be to the staff: One of the Troop Guides fell at home during the time between course weekends. He slipped on the stairs to his basement and tore his ACL. He knew what he had done, and knew he was looking at surgery and a lengthy rehab. His first call was to 911 for an ambulance, and his second call was to our SPL, letting him know about the accident, but also assuring the SPL that - no matter what - he would be back for the second weekend. He kept his word, and the rest of us TG''s enjoyed the extra work helping Jim get around. His dedication, while very inspiring to the rest of the staff team, really wasn''t all that surprising. I think we had all reached a level of dedication to the team that we all would have done the same thing in that situation. Staffing that course was definitely a highlight in my Scouting career. I hope it will be for you as well.

"But don''''t abuse it. I was reading the example where the adult reminded the scout he didn''''t have his official BSA belt on. He felt that by reminding the boy, he had solve the problem. At no point was the boy allowed to make a choice. I like to look at it from the boys side. I will use extreems to make the point. A six foot 250 lb man stops the boy by touching his shoulder. The smaller boy looks up at this man who bends over to look at him. AT what point will the boy be honest in his opinion of the uniform. At what point did the big adult say something that would give the scout food for thought about the value of the uniform. When did the adult do or say something that would make the boy feel he just heard words of wisdom. I can''''t say he lost respect for the adult as a role model, but I can say he will not be in any hurry to seek out that adults guidance." Excuse me, Barry, but you have no idea what you are talking about. In fact, you couldn''t be more wrong. When my son''s den crossed over, there were 9 boys that joined the same Troop. As I have mentioned, a couple of us were not happy with their program, so we started a new Troop. 6 of the 9 left that large Troop to form the new one. Every one of them, including the boy mentioned above, said "I''m going where ever Mr. Allen goes." Those boys all made a huge decision to leave their friends at the other Troop. I didn''t twist any arms. They all followed because we have developed a level of trust and mutual respect. And I would argue the boy in the example has more respect for me because I showed I cared about him enough to ask, and that we set expectations and stick to them. I have found the boys respect those leaders who are firm and fair. "Boys want to know what they can expect from you as their Scoutmaster, and what you expect from them. Strive to be consistent in word and action." Scoutmaster Handbook He didn''t lose any respect for me, but I have lost respect for you thanks to your post. How you can make such broad assumptions based on so little information is simply astounding.

WB Staff takes a lot of time, but is definitely worth it, if you have the time. For our course, we had two Sunday meetings to begin, from 1:30 - 6:00. We had 2 Staff Development weekends, from Friday at 7:00 pm to around 2:00 - 4:00 pm Sunday. Two weeks before the course started, we had our infamous "Tarp Day" where we put up two 40 x 60 tarps, along with electic lights, at the Troop Learning Area. The week of the course, we arrived Tuesday at 7:00 pm to prepare, with the participants arriving Friday morning. The second weekend of the course, we had to arrive Thursday evening. Monday after the course was take-down day, and we didn''t depart until around 1:00 or 2:00 pm. Depending on your position, you will have presentations to prepare, note cards to write up. I don''t know how many hours I put in, but when I throw it on the scales, I got more out of the experience than I put in. I still miss it!

The COR/IH and the CC have to approve/sign all adult registrations. That may be interpreted by some as "the committee votes" on the leaders. Or, they could actually be voting, which would be unusual. I don''t know of a single Troop in our district with a female SM. Several have female ASMs. Our Pack has 13 Dens, with 10 of them being lead by men, though some have female ADLs. The only time I''ve ever had any request dealing with a preference for a male or female leader, it was a mom asking if her son could be moved into a den with a male leader. This has only happened 2 or 3 times over the years, in a large Pack. I know of one Troop, chartered by a Pentecostal Church, that won''t allow women to go camping with the boys. This Troop had to request permission from the church to allow the boys to go without shirts in public at the waterfront, at Summer Camp. Hey, different strokes for different folks.(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

I guess I''m going to have to turn in my WB beads since I totally missed the lessons where WB logic was taught as Kudu describes. Otherwise, good speech. Have you seen the National High Adventure Promotion video? It features information on Northern Tier, OKPIK, Sea Base and Philmont. I''ve heard it is very good, and could be an excellent recruiting visual aid. I''m not sure how long it is, or how easy it would be to skip around in it. It is available from Northern Tier. $10 includes shipping http://www.ntier.org/Adobe%20Documents/VIDEO%20ORDER%20FORM.pdf

We use the Uniform Method in a positive manner, and have never turned a boy away or prohibited him from participating in any event* because he was out of uniform. I have always told the boys and parents, in both the Pack and Troop, that if they are coming from another event and don''t have time to change, I would much rather them attend the meeting out of uniform than miss the meeting. They know they are expected to be in full uniform, otherwise. If they can''t afford a uniform, I will make sure they get one at no expense to them. *The one exception is Color Guard duty - they must be in uniform to be part of the Guard. "Let me ask this question: for those who have seen uniforming improve over time in a troop, what was the cause? Adult leadership, youth leadership, improvement in other elements leading to more esprit? I''''d be curious to know." From my experience, expectations to follow BSA standard, set by the SM. The SM sets the bar and it filters down. If the SM does a good job of explaining what is expected and why (either to the boys directly or to the PLC), the boys will follow his lead and it will then become just a part of the program. When a new boy comes to join the Troop, the SM explains that the Troop wears the full uniform - he hears the expectation up front - when he hears all the other important information about joining. If I see a Scout missing something, I will usually ask "Hey Michael, where''s your belt?" "Oh, I couldn''t find it before we left." "OK, give yourself a little more time to get ready next week, alright?" "Yes sir, Mr. Allen." End of discussion. He may hear the same thing from his Patrol Leader as well. If he doesn''t get some feedback for missing part of his uniform, he may assume that is acceptable and repeat it. I volunteer to be a part of the Boy Scouts of America, to help run a Troop and a Pack. While the Troop is boy run and boy lead, I expect it to operate as a BSA Troop, following the Aims and Methods. Those are my expectations. If the boys decide they want to run things differently than outlined by the BSA, they are going to have to find another leader. The Troop is boy run and boy lead, not boy altered.

Congratulations, Beavah - you are officially the first Scouter to call me gay. Now there is a real example of friendly and kind. If someone is going to throw names at me, I would expect them to be up front about it and not hide behind some screen name. But I guess that is your style, eh? Adios, amigo.

Beavah, cute story, but poor analogy. The BSA has standards which can''t be changed. Boys can no more vote on changing the official uniform (other than hats & neckerchiefs) than they can vote on changing the requirements for Eagle or allowing boys to ride in the back of pick-up trucks. If you can show me ANYWHERE in ANY BSA publication where the boys are instructed or allowed to vote on altering the official uniform, then I will gladly change my position. I won''t hold my breath. Barry - you are employing the Method, and I applaud you. Method: the means or procedures used in attaining an end. Letting the boys vote on something they don''t have the authority to change is not a Method. Deciding the boys don''t want to wear the uniform and accepting that as the status quo is not a Method. It is the absence of a Method. Telling another Scouter that trying to get their boys to improve their uniforming is a waste of time and energy is not a Method. "Troop leaders should set a good example by wearing the uniform themselves and by encouraging each Scout to acquire and wear a uniform." Scoutmaster Handbook Many of the monthly programs in the Troop Program Planning Features include "Hold a uniform inspection." as part of the opening ceremony for week 1. Did they include that because they thought Troops shouldn''t hold periodic inspections? Holding inspections conducted by the boys is a great way of employing the Method. Ea., good post. At the Troop we were previously part of, the SM basically told the boys the same thing - they only need to wear the shirt. I''m glad to hear the OA is inspiring your son. As the Honor Society of the BSA, they should. Unfortunately, down here, some members of the Honor Society are the worst when it comes to uniforming.

Ea., I agree with you, and I''m big on succession planning. When I took on District Membership Vice-Chair, I wasn''t SM of a Troop. I believe that if you are a unit leader (CM, SM) you shouldn''t hold a major position at the district level. There are enough other Scouters around to handle those major positions. I will drop that one next year. Our council is so large, and has so many Wood Badgers, that we only hold a reunion once every 4 years - it is a huge event. I accepted that position because I''m getting to work with some old Scouters who are in their mid 70''s, and I might not get the opportunity again. Plus, I get to listen to their really cool stories! Some of these gentlemen have been in Scouting for 40 - 50 years, and you just can''t beat their experience. Our district hadn''t held an overnight Webelos Woods in any one''s memory, so I put one together last year (I was Activities Chair). It went off pretty well. I agreed to help out our new Activities Chair and run it again this year, as long as we get someone to take it next year. This is my third year on the Scouters Academy Steering Committee. I will probably keep this as long as I''m asked. We have a great team and it is a lot of fun. It doesn''t take too much time and is very rewarding.

I don''t want to add up the hours for this week. It started Saturday, 8 - 5 for Instructor Training for CPR/First Aid/AED/Wilderness First Aid. Tonight 7 - 9 for a Wood Badge Reunion Planning Committee. Tuesday night is Troop meeting, 7:15 - 9. Wednesday night is Scouters Academy Steering Committee meeting, 7 - 9. Thursday is District Committee Meeting, 7:30 - 9. Friday I''m off (time to study and prepare for testing Saturday) Saturday is back for the second half of the Instructor Training, 8 - 5. Hats: SM for Troop, COR for Pack, Membership Vice-Chair for District, Committees as above, Camp Director for Webelos Woods. Most of this ends in November. WB Reunion is October 13, Scouters Academy is Nov. 3, Webelos Woods is Nov. 9-11. Squeeze in a Troop campout each month, and it all adds up to one hour a week! Hey, it keeps me out of trouble. Trev, the DE and I both made the pitch at school to the boys for our School Night for Scouting event.(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

Maybe our experiences are just too different to find any common ground here. I''ll try to give my experience a little better, through what we experienced at our previous troop. 1. The uniforming there was what I consider pretty lax, but some here might consider it normal. They had set a troop policy of any green or khaki pants or cargo short, or dress shorts, but no blue jeans. About 1/3 of the troop wore Scout pants or shorts, the rest a hodge podge (including the leaders) but also including blue jeans. It was announced we were going to have special guest Al Townly visit, so I expected everyone to look their best. The one Eagle Scout in the troop at that time shows up in his Scout shirt and blue jeans, and he wasn''t the only one. Nothing is said to correct this, from anyone. Even though the Troop had voted to wear a neckerchief, about 1/3 would wear it, and none of the adults would. 2. At the camporee opening ceremony formation, I pulled the SPL and a couple of older boys over to view a Troop that was in full uniform, with custom Troop neckerchiefs, and pointed out how they looked like a really united team and Troop. I asked what they thought about it, and if they thought our Troop could ever get there. They just shook their heads and said "No way!" I''m curious to hear what you think an adult leader should do in those situations. Should he just sit back and wait for them to come around? Should he just give up and say it''s the boys decision? Gern (sorry, I don''t mean to be picking on you) states his troop has had the same "sloppy" uniforming for 50 years - how long do you wait for the boys to improve? If we see boys setting up their tents wrong, would we let them keep doing it? If they did a terrible job planning their meals for a campout, would we let them keep doing it? Yes, we let them fail and then learn from their mistakes, but they way y''all are talking about the Uniform Method, I don''t see you treating it the same - you don''t ever point out mistakes, they don''t ever improve. You just let is keep sliding. Heaven forbid you actually have an inspection! The boys might have a breakdown and run away, to never return! How would each of you handle to two above situations?