BrentAllen

"But I will agree the military is why so many adults are confused." I never said that, so you aren''t agreeing with me. The boys get to choose what they are going to wear for every Scout meeting. I don''t go to their house and dress them! I won''t turn them away if they show up out of uniform. We have had 4 meetings in the new troop, and nearly all have been completely in uniform. Sometimes one will have on other socks or couldn''t find their belt, but they try to be in uniform for every meeting. This is not due to any brow-beating from me or anyone else, as you must be assuming. When we were with the other troop, the boys wore their uniforms then as well, even though 2/3 of the rest of the troop didn''t. At their very first meeting these boys decided they wanted to earn the National Honor Patrol Award . Wearing the uniform is required to earn it. I didn''t even mention this award to them - a couple of the boys had found it in their Scout book and brought it to my attention. Totally their decision. The boys own this. Y''all seem to think the uniform is only to be decided upon by the boys. Tell me, what do you think B-P was saying when he stated "Show me a poorly uniformed Troop, and I will show you a poorly uniformed Scoutmaster"? If the Uniform Method was left totally up to the boys, why would B-P say that? What would it matter what the SM wore?

Gern, These boys have been together for 5 years, in the same Den and Patrol. The uniforming tradition has been with them for that long. Sure, it started with the Pack, but it has become their tradition. They also have the tradition of saying the Pledge, Oath and Law at the beginning of each meeting. We are copying another very good Troop that has a tradition of requiring the boys to carry a survival kit at all times on campouts. I introduced it to the boys, they really liked the idea, and we are instituting it, for both boys and adults. Beavah, that has to be the most confused, convoluted description of the Uniform Method I have ever seen. Let me see if I got this - we are uniform on the inside, but not on the outside? Sorry, but the Uniform Method is much more about the appearance we present to the public. "People seeing a boy in a Scout uniform expect someone of good character who is prepared to the best of his ability to help those around him." The printers must have left out your "internal uniforming" explanation. It takes a while to learn leadership, everyone knows that. It takes months to earn each rank. It takes 5 minutes to put on a uniform. Barry, the uniform is the first thing most people see when encountering Scouts. First impressions are the most important, right? I do believe the uniform does build citizenship - the boys show respect for themselves, their unit, for the BSA, and to those who wore the uniform in the past. I think the military would tell you wearing their uniforms also builds citizenship in the soldiers. I think it also builds character because it instills discipline and comraderie. Character is doing the right thing, and wearing the uniform is the right thing to do. If the boys don''t know this, who taught them that wearing the uniform is wrong?

Barry, The minute a new boy walks into a troop meeting, he will see what is expected of him with regard to uniforming. He will either see boys wearing the uniform correctly, and know that is expected of him - without a word being spoken - or he will see slip shod uniforming, and know that is tolerated. How hard is it to be in "perfect" uniform? Go to the shop and buy a shirt, pants, socks and a belt. Are you telling me you can expect a boy to be able to pack all his gear for a camping trip, but can''t expect him to figure out 4 parts to a uniform?? The boys coming out of our Pack are already in full uniform, so it is easy for us. I guess we can blame it on the Packs. Should not being in uniform be the end of a boy''s scouting career? Not necessarily. I would explore the situation - why does he feel that way? Can he not afford one? If he just flat out refused to wear one, I would suggest he find another unit, since that is not the tradition at our unit.

The Methods aren''t tools to pick and choose from. The are ingredients for the program, as in a cake. You can try to make a cake without all the ingredients, but is it going to be as good as cake made with all of them? Pack, the post wasn''t just about the uniform, but also about how some are fanatics about 7 of the methods, and very cavalier about the Uniform Method. I know good uniforming can be achieved without loosing boys - leaving "bodies" from the "shoot-out" - so I can''t understand why some have that attitude.

1. Assume I posted our boys never recite the Oath or Law, except at COHs. They aren''t required to memorize them because we feel it becomes meaningless repitition. We don''t spend much time on the Oath and Law because the boys feel they aren''t that important. Many here would shake their heads in disbelief and think we don''t have much of a Boy Scout Troop. 2. Assume I posted that we eat our meals as a Troop, not as Patrols. It''s too much work to get them all doing their own menues and cooking. Most functions, we just do them as a Troop, as it is easier to deliver instructions and get them to work in one big group. Many here would shake their heads in disbelief and think we don''t have much of a Boy Scout Troop. 3. Assume I posted we only go camping twice a year, and when we do, we stay in cabins at State Parks. Carrying and setting up tents is just too much work, and we don''t like sleeping on the ground. The boys might go on a quick hike around the park, but mostly hang around the cabins or look for a playground. Many here would shake their heads in disbelief and think we don''t have much of a Boy Scout Troop. 4. Assume I posted most of our boys are Scout or Tenderfoot, that they don''t care much about advancement and we don''t encourage it. Too much paperwork, too many requirements, and for what? How is spending the night in a tent going to help us, when we stay in cabins on our trips? Many here would shake their heads in disbelief and think we don''t have much of a Boy Scout Troop. 5. Assume I posted our SM doesn''t really see the point of SM conferences. He just asks the boys if they have completed all the requirements, and if they say yes, he signs off. We don''t see much point in BORs, as the adults can just ask the SM if the boy is ready to advance. Many here would shake their heads in disbelief and think we don''t have much of a Boy Scout Troop. 6. Assume I posted we don''t do any service projects or Good Turns. We don''t work with any other Troops in the area or go to camporees. We see no need to mention or pursue the religious emblems program. Many here would shake their heads in disbelief and think we don''t have much of a Boy Scout Troop. 7. Assume I posted we don''t have real boy leaders. We appoint some boys to be Patrol Leaders for the loose groups we call patrols, but they don''t have any real responsibilities. We don''t need QMs or Scribes or any other positions, as the adults do all the work. Many here would shake their heads in disbelief and think we don''t have much of a Boy Scout Troop. 8. Assume I posted our boys only wear the uniform shirt, but don''t care to wear the pants. They wear whatever is oomfortable to them. Scout belts and socks aren''t ever discussed. Many here would say that sounds familiar and wouldn''t have any problem with it. Why is that? In case you haven''t figured it out, I''m talking about the 8 Methods. Some here accuse me of being a uniform fanatic. Maybe so, but I am just as fanatical about the other 7 methods. I am fanatical about Scouting. I promote the use of all 8 methods, to the fullest extent. Others, come here and defend and promote 7 of the Methods, but then disparage the 8th. Why is that? To my knowledge, I have never posted any comments encouraging another Scouter to ignore or short-change ANY of the Methods. I believe you need them all to make Scouting the great program it has been for the last 100 years. So, why do I post so much about uniforming? Because it is the only Method I see getting beat up, with posters telling others it isn''t important, it isn''t worth the effort. Yes, that bothers me. Some have decided only 7 are important and encourage others to downplay the 8th. Think about that. If someone (highcountry, for example) posts about not using the Patrol Method for cooking meals, he will hear all about how that is wrong, including from the same posters who downplay uniforming. Are they Patrol Method fanatics? I hope so! I just wish they were also uniform fanatics. Do you promote all 8 Methods in your unit? Do you encourage other Scouters to use and promote all 8 Methods in their units?

Gern, Give me a break! Let''s review: "your dorky socks"... "Uniforming is the easiest of the methods to accomplish (especially in an adult led unit)"... "Imagine joining a troop that didn''t do much more than uniform inspections. Not fun."... " It works well for parlor scouts at indoor meetings and those who want to look pretty for parades."... Courteous, Kind, Friendly? Similary, I can''t find the Scout Law that says a Scout goes camping or hiking or anything outdoors. For the record, I never said any of those things about you and your leaders.

Hey Gern, don''t get your non-uniform socks in a wad. B^) The key to your last post was one sentence: "A scout is..." "Dressed as a Scout, you will want to act as a Scout." Boy Scout Handbook, pg. 12 For the record, we don''t go hiking, rock climbing or whitewater rafting in our official uniform. We wear our official uniform to Troop meetings, COH''s, and travelling to and from camping trips. This list isn''t exhaustive, but I think you get the point.

"No, I can''''t recite page and paragraph to the prioritization of the 8 methods (I doubt you can either)," McFly!!! Of course you can''t, because they aren''t prioritized! They are all equal! Here''s a little hint - you don''t have to choose between an exciting outdoor program and a well uniformed troop. You can have both. I''ll repeat that, in case you or Beavah missed it. You can have both. Yeah, the uniform doesn''t draw boys to joing Scouting. Neither does learning citizenship, character development or mental & physical fitness. Know any boys who want to join for adult association? How about the ideals? Personal growth? Those things don''t draw boys either, but (turn on bright flashing neon light) THEY ARE SCOUTING. Do you choose to ignore those Aims & Methods as well? If so, it sounds like you have a social camping club, instead of a Boy Scout troop. For the record, we say "Boy Scout Troop 494 meets regularly on Tuesday nights from 7:15 - 9:00 pm in Room A 200. The Troop schedules a camping trip or outing nearly every month - our Scouts love to go camping! Troop 494 is traditional Boy Scouting at it''s best - boys learning scouting skills, values, leadership and how to have fun in the great outdoors!" Notice there isn''t anything about the uniform. How many "No Uniform Method" patches do you need? I''ll get you some extras so the members of your troop can sew them on their blue jeans. Maybe I can get the same logo on some socks for you too.

Gern, I need a favor, please. I checked my Scoutmaster Handbook and I can''t find the priority ranking of the Methods. My copy must be missing it - could you please post them, in order, so I can be a good SM and make sure we get them in the right order? If it''s not too much of a bother, please let me know which of the Methods are important, and which are "petty." Silly us, we thought we could work on them all at the same time. I''m such a greenhorn! My SM Handbook says that "A Scout troop functions best when all eight methods are employed." Our poor boys, we force them to endure an Annual Inspection, in December. Is that all we do? Well, if you only came to one Troop meeting a year, and it happened to be that one, then I guess you could stick to your claim. I''m amazed to see how many "leaders" run up the white flag when it comes to uniforming - "we can''t get our boys in uniform, so nobody else can either, unless the adults are running the troop." You guys surrender faster than the French! Maybe we can come up with a special patch for your troops - a nice big white flag with "Uniform Method" on it and the red "No" circle & bar over the wording. B^) We have excellent uniforming. We have not lost any boys because we are in full uniform. We have not had any "shoot-outs" with any "bodies" left behind. Too bad others can''t simply congratulate troops on good uniforming and try to improve it in their own units. I guess the site of a well uniformed troop is just too tough to deal with, when they look back at their own troop. Time to scramble for some excuses.

Trev, I admit I am basing my opinion on the performance of gay marriage intitiatives, which have been pretty well shot down across the country. Maybe the two aren''t related (gays being allowed to join the BSA & gays being allowed to marry), but I see a correlation between the two, suggesting that attitudes aren''t changing as much as some claim.

Gunny, Welcome to the war! It amazes me what lengths some parents will go to in order to keep their sons from the evil Scout pants! I know you haven''t had a chance to go to WB yet. When you do, you will see what the BSA teaches about resolving conflict and leading change. For now, if it were me in your shoes, I would stick to my guns, knowing I am doing the right thing, and I am fighting the good fight. To the former SM, I would point out that you are trying to get the Troop in line with BSA policy. I would let him know that Troops don''t have the right to set a different uniform policy. If cost is a factor, he can look on ebay, where he should be able to find pants for under $20. Or he can buy the new Switchbacks, which are also great for camping. His son doesn''t go camping in blue jeans, does he? If so, that is another bad habit he needs to break. At our summer WB course, we taught a little lesson on uniforming. We suggested having an annual inspection, tied to the recharter. Invite your Unit Commissioner to come in and lead the inspection team. Announce the inspection well in advance - you want this to be a positive experience, not a "gotcha!" Give the boys copies of the inspection forms ahead of time, so they have time to prepare. Have one inspector for every 8 - 10 boys, so it doesn''t take too much time. The night of the troop meeting, introduce the UC and his team and let them do their thing. Afterwards, award a patch or prize for every boy that reaches a certain score. Let the boys know how proud you are of them for working on their uniform, and encourage them to continue. You are going to have naysayers any time you try to make some changes. You usually only hear from them when the change is instituted, and after a couple of weeks, you won''t hear anything else. Stick to your guns, move forward, lead on the issue, and thank everyone for their input, good or bad.

"The message is clear: to a significant proportion of the US population, BSA no longer holds the moral highground. That is truly sad." And there''s the rub - do we compromise our values to appease a small segment of our society? Or do we stand firm, supported by the vast majority of Americans, and by the Constitution? Have we ever discussed this before? ;^)

Jumping back in this thread regarding the comments about sports vs. Scouting, and the parent''s decision to choose one over the other. Our new CSE gave a great answer to a question about that, in the latest Scouting magazine: Scouting: What reason would you give parents as to why their child ought to join a Scout unit? Mazzuca: In a nutshell, leadership for a lifetime. Give us a child for five years, any combination of those years being in Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, or Venturing, and we will help equip that child for a better life. I''d tell parents that when they make decisions regarding their children''t time, make recreational decisions based on recreational activities. Don''t count Scouting in that recreational slot. Our goal isn''t to teach your child how to camp. Our goal is to help your child become a responsible, productive adult. Parents need to understand that it isn''t a choice between their child playing soccer for an hour a week or Scouting for an hour. Scouting is for a lifetime, but soccer is for an hour. I think I''m really going to like this guy.

Our boys use their own tents, but they all own the same model. So I guess we have the best of both worlds. We are a pretty small Troop right now. "Scouts moving under their own power with their packs on their backs are getting into the spirit of a campout long before they reach the place where they''ll pitch their tents. Whenever possible, plan to hike at least part of the way to a campsite." Scoutmaster Handbook I agree with the above, so we encourage the boys to purchase backpacking tents. We have an REI just a few miles away, so we do a lot of business with them. They had their Half Dome tent on sale for $100, which was a really good price ($169 regular). Most of the boys went out and bought one, so they now have the same tent at camp. I''m pretty sure the boys will take better care of the tents since they own them. I''m not worried too much about the tents all looking alike. I''m more worried about them having a tent they can carry on their back.

I could live without it, if I had to. We don''t watch much of anything regularly. The networks are awful to me - nothing of interest. Same with either local or cable news. Giving it up completely really wouldn''t free up that much time. I like to occasionally watch college football and college basketball. I also love watching the Little League World Series. My only real vice with it is the UFC (Ultimate Fighting Club) and TUF. Other than that, I will flip over to AMC to see if there is a classic movie on I enjoy. I usually have at least 2 Scout meetings during the week, and many times 3, so that doesn''t leave much time for tv. Eamonn, I''m also watching the Ken Burns WWII special - very good!

We don''t allow cellphones or electronics on our campouts, either. We are going into the woods to get away from those things. If a boy can''t live without them, he needs to find something other than Scouting to do. Why this policy? Nowadays, these things aren''t just cell phones - they are mini computers with internet access and games. I don''t allow my son to have unsupervised internet access at home - why would I want him to have it on a campout? In our old troop, I would hear games being played in tents late at night, well past 1:00 am. Imagine the poor Scout sharing a tent with someone doing that, trying to get some sleep. Yeah, yeah, the boys should work it out between them. Tell that to the younger smaller Scout sharing a tent with the bigger older Scout playing the games. Face it, there are many things we don''t see or hear as leaders. This policy takes care of some of the problems we never hear about. In Cubs, we had a dad bring his laptop and watch 2 movies on it in his tent, starting at 11:00 pm. The parents in the tents around him were not very happy the next morning. OGE - prohibition is still in effect - for those under the age of 21.

"ANother question could be, why are we (or they) requiring any uniform at a BOR, since this is adding to the requirements?" Maybe because the Troop is interested in really building and promoting Scout Spirit, and follows the Boy Scout Handbook when it says, "Old or new, wear your uniform proudly whenever you are taking part in Scout activities." Unless, of course, following the Boy Scout Handbook can be regarded as adding to the requirements. Anyone have any Tylenol?

Let''s see: Chainsaw juggling Enhanced potatoe cannons Mumblety-peg for new Scouts (immediatly followed by First Aid for cuts) How to take Tiger Scouts (with adult partners, of course) Whitewater Rafting on Class 3''s Gasoline - the perfect fire starter Canoeing lessons from Deliverance Patrol Leader training in the use of nunchucks for patrol discipline Just the usual. All while wearing the complete correct uniform, of course. :-)

The Totin'' Chip Award patch is in the new Insignia Guide, described as temporary insignia.(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

"I would like to see this because its not my experience." Eagledad/Barry, Next time you are on the north side of Atlanta, let me know and I will give you a tour. The Troop in the story I posted (about helping the mom with the bad back) has excellent uniforming, and they are very boy lead. The boys enforce the uniforming for not only the boys, but also for the adults. If you are an adult leader and you want to stay in the Troop meeting room during a Troop meeting, you must be in full complete uniform. That is the boy''s rule. Another Troop in the area operates under the same policy. Very well uniformed, very boy run. This second Troop sent 9 boys to NYLT this year. The other Troop in the area is poor on uniforming and very adult run. They claim to be boy run, but the SM runs the PLC meeting, the adults set the calendar, dads cook for patrols, etc. So, come to Atlanta/Dunwoody and I''ll be glad to let you see for yourself. My only other observation about Troops and uniforming is that Troops with WB trained leaders are much better at uniforming. Now, which Troops do you think would be more likely to be boy run? Troops with WB trained leaders, or those without any WB trained leaders? Troop #1 above has many WB trained leaders, as well as providing plenty of leadership at the District level. Our District Advancement chair is a member of that Troop, as well as our Program Vice Chair. As I''ve said many times before, uniforming all comes down to leadership.

Bad News Bears - let''s see - players smoking, cussing, fighting, displaying bad sportsmanship. Coach is an alcoholic. I guess with a Troop like that, uniforming would take back burner. As for the Merit Badge Sash, if the Scout were in my unit, I would have the SPL point out in the Insignia Guide where it states: "A merit badge sash is NEVER worn on the belt." (emphasis NOT added) Found in the front, under Excess Insignia. Instead of perpetuating bad uniforming, I would try to have it corrected. No need to let the Scout improperly influence hundreds of other Scouts who might see him and don''t know any better (and who''s adults wouldn''t take the time to try to correct and lead them).

Eagledad writes: " BUT, for all you There is only one uniform folks out there, our PLC wanted to use olive drab BDUs for a lot of good reasons that arent important here. The PLC sent their request and reasons to Council to get permission to wear BDUs as official uniform. And they got it. So our scouts can wear OD BDU pants if they choose." That''s nice, but unfortunately your local council doesn''t have the authority to give such permission. As you can read in the Insignia Guide, only the National Executive Board of the BSA, through it''s Program Group Committee, can issue changes. Clause 4. Prohibition of Alteration or Imitation a) No alteration of, or additions to, the official uniforms, as described in the official publications, or the rules and regulations covering the wearing of the uniform and the proper combinations thereof on official occasions, may be authorized by any Scouting official or LOCAL COUNCIL OR ANY LOCAL EXECUTIVE BOARD or committee, except the Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America after consideration by the Program Group Committee. (emphasis added) Do you ever have Annual Inspections as recommended? With an outside inspection group, usually headed up by a UC? Or does that violate your boy-run program? The following is not addressed to Eagledad, because it sounds like his Troop is pretty good on the uniforming. I''m all for boy run. I just get tired of seeing so many Troops who ignore the uniform requirements and then use the excuses of either the uniform costs too much or we''ll lose boys if we make them wear the uniform or the boys decided to wear something else. I''ve seen it done correctly too many times to believe those lame excuses. Those poorly uniformed troops operate on policy based on fear - fear they are going to lose boys, fear they are going to upset someone, fear of who knows what. I thought a Scout was brave. As I''ve said before, it all comes down to a lack of leadership. Do you want them to look like Scouts, or like the Bad News Bears Doing Scouts? Boy run is great, but if the boys in our Troop wanted to change the uniform, I would ask them to show me where the change is authorized. I wouldn''t let them just vote on it and change it, as others have suggested.(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

Beavah, please explain your difference between well uniformed and strictly uniformed. When I say well uniformed, I mean the boys wear the complete correct uniform. I''m interested in hearing your definitions.

Highcountry, The problem with your plan is you are still going to have the same problem - the one you admit you have - the boys don''t know how to cook or plan or buy groceries. "They have done the road to first class cooking requirements but for many it has been so long that they have not been pratically using it." I know a pretty good Troop that runs a plan you might be interested in. The patrols plan their meals two weeks before the trip. The week of the trip, two ASM''s take the grubmasters from the patrols to the grocery store, during the Troop meeting, to buy the food. They work it as anarchist describes. The adults keep the receipts, and the coolers and chow boxes are packed that night. Not only does this help with quality control on both food and money spent, it also teaches the boys how to do it. If the patrol grubmaster has to do it on his own, there is a good chance that mom or dad will end up doing it instead. They will spend a lot more money and buy huge quantities that end up getting wasted. Until you get down to patrol level cooking, the boys aren''t going to learn how to do it. Ask the parents to let their sons start cooking meals at home, especially breakfast. Finally, if you get to patrol level cooking, assign adult guests to eat with them at different meals. This makes the patrols work a little harder at having a real meal, and you will hear from the adults how the boys are doing. This isn''t easy, but to me it is one of the most rewarding parts of the job - seeing those boys cook and feed themselves with no adult involvement. This is one of those parts that really separate Scouting from any other youth activity - who else teaches this level of responsibility and self-sufficiency? Good luck!

Well, Oak, you totally missed my point. There aren''t two alternate realities - there are just two different methods of communication. Face to face, you have a conversation, complete with introductions, handshakes, body language, eye contact, etc. Here, you get one dimensional text. Also, here you are not so much having a conversation as you are sharing ideas, thoughts and opinions - many of which you would never hear in a face to face conversation. It is almost as if you get to read people''s minds. If you could do that walking down the street, I''m sure the world would be much less civil. So, take offense at my "slackers" comment when none was meant - that is your choice. I just ask if you want me to be civil, do me the favor of putting my quotes in proper text. Beavah, around here the opposite is true. The troops that are well uniformed are much more boy run than the one that isn''t. It''s the boys that enforce the uniforming in those troops, not the adults.