Pack18Alex

So his parents aren't into it and won't help. Either the boy doesn't really care, or he has the worlds worst parents... All the Mormon's I've met have been stellar parents, maybe you found the rejects. Either way, I wouldn't worry about him at all. Let him have fun. If you feel bad, talk to him for 10 minutes about the importance of Rank Advancement, maybe he'll go home and finish Bobcat with his parents. If not, oh well, life moves on. But derailing the Den's advancement for boys that might actually do their Webelos Rank and Arrow of Light for him is silly.

Well, one of the Wolf Electives is to help a Scout earn his Bobcat Badge. Sending him off to be taught the Bobcat by a Second Grader might be a good step towards getting him to put up or shut up. You're LDS so only 12 months for him as a Webelos, he's not going to earn AoL, but so what? Honestly, I'd worry about a Boy with a Wolf/Bear Badge and some arrowheads getting his AoL, a boy that doesn't care, don't risk anyone else's advancement for him. If he shows up and has fun but doesn't earn Ranks, that's fine, but don't slow down your serious Scouts for him. As a Den Leader, I always have an Elective Project planned. If I know ahead of time that a boy can't make my meeting, I do an elective instead of a requirement, and push the requirement off. Occasionally I get told, often I don't. In Tigers, I did some make-up for one boy who had a sick relative sucking his parent's time dry, we all helped him catch up in one meeting, he was ecstatic, and his Denmates had fun helping him. I think that going out of your way to get a non-serious Scout Arrow of Light, the HIGHEST honor in Cub Scouting (and one that stays with you your entire Scouting Experience including as Scouter) is a disservice to your serious Scouts and will cause them to not care. I wouldn't want this Scout to get Arrow of Light and I wouldn't do anything to promote it. Now if he gets a bug up his ass and decides to earn it, good for him, but I wouldn't risk a Wolf getting one less Arrowhead to help an unworthy Scout sneak off with AoL

"I actually got approval to hold a Friday night Scout Shabbat (joint GS/BS) from the shul president via the 2nd VP. They seemed pretty enthusiastic and supportive." That's terrific and a very creative solution!

"Reform would be the easiest to deal with in terms of religious observance" Most of my Unit is non observant, but a handful are. As we are an openly Jewish Unit, we observe dietary laws and Shabbat at Scout events. Parents making phone calls on Shabbat are asked to step out of the camp site, the Unit meals are all Kosher, etc. Individual families do what they want, but as a Unit, we observe, which lets the observant and non-observant kids participate jointly and fully. As I've said to parents joining, we don't hold events on Shabbat, but if a Scout goes to a District Event on Saturday and wins an award, I'll present it at the Pack Meeting, which has gone over very well with my observant and non-observant families. "I do plan on hosting a Scout Shabbat and Emblems workshop at a Reform synagogue this year, if I can." Absolutely terrific, and a great way to include Jewish Scouts and their place of worship. To avoid religious politics, we self chartered, BTW, formed a State Non Profit (too small of money to pursue 501©3, formed to support Jewish Scouting in our area) and chartered to that. We have met in a local Synagogue, and have extensive relationships with the Youth Program there (my attempts to reach out to the other nearby Synagogues have gone nowhere), but by not being chartered there, I'm not giving the Rabbi authority over our actions. We have a Chaplain for our Pack, another Rabbi whose son was involved an is happy to help, but self chartering simplified the politics. We're contemplating getting chartered to the Synagogue we meet at's Youth Department, but we're terrified of what would happen if they tried to exert control. However, I'm going to take your idea, and reach out to the other neighborhood Packs/Troops. If they have any Jewish Scouts that attend our local Conservative Synagogue, reach out to host an emblem workshop there, that might be much better than the status quo in the Council Office, which is a 45 minute drive for my Unit. "Venturing would probably work well as an addon to the NFTY/USY programs. I've heard complaints that being involved as an officer in a youth group wasn't resume building" -- there is a rub, high schoolers that are looking to go to elite colleges are interested in resume building. Getting involved in Scouting as a High Schooler is a non-starter for that socio-economic group. The only people I knew that "made Eagle" did all their Merit Badges in Middle School. All that was left for Scouting in High school was fun activities and Eagle Project. The time commitment for a high schooler that would interfere with other activities was too much.

In fact, when you look at the IRS rules for a uniform as deductible, one of the examples given is a Boy Scout Uniform, because it has no purpose outside the organization. I believe you can write off your adult uniform as a donation to charity for that reason, since you have no use for it except as a Boy Scout Leader. Switching from US Dollars to BS Credits is irrelevant, money is money. While it is easiest to denominate it in US Currency, you can pay someone in US Money, Euros, Canadian Dollars, or Bitcoins, and you've still paid them. You have to convert it to US Dollars for reporting to the IRS. Our ISA's are basically used to cover dues / camping fees / extras... I'd get rid of them, but the only Scouts that have them for us are Leaders Kids (you get them after selling 20 Camp Cards, non of the non leaders sold over 20 Camp Cards), and it's a nice perk since the Leaders get clobbered with various costs from running the activities, going on every Campout, etc. Even if ISA's are payments (they're not, they are offsets to future charges, but the Scout can't cash out), up to $600/year doesn't require reporting... it's certainly a 1099, there are no work hours, minimum payments, etc. The Scout would still be required to report it on their 1040, but the Scout likely doesn't have a 1040, and that level of income is not exempt. We pay for all patch/badges out of Unit funds, not ISA. That way the Scouts that do more stuff aren't charged for doing it, they are role models.

I ran Tiger/Wolf this year, though focused on my Tigers and got another parent to run some Wolf-achievement meetings. There was a guide my DE sent me (can't find it now) on alternative meeting plans for groups meeting together. It was a one year (or 9 month) program that did Tiger/Wolf/Bear/Webelos. There were alternativing programs A/B so your boys didn't repeat each year. The Tiger Go-See-Its were fudged and a few other things (not applicable for LDS), but might be a GREAT program for LDS, since boys change ranks randomly through the year. They just work on which ever level of the activity is appropriate for their current rank.

Scouts is too jingoistic, religious, and authoritian for Reform. The single gender nature doesn't agree with egalitarianism, the faith component is too separatist for them, and the fact that Bears and Webelos can accomplish their faith requirement via Jewish emblems that are too traditional for their leadership makes scouts a non starter. The requirement of faith in a deity is going to be too restrictive, the fact that one is only permitted to earn a single religion's emblem doesn't jive with their interfaith focus, etc. I just don't see the Reform movement dropping its antagonism in any scenario. Indeed, with the emphasis on Saturday morning being 100% about the Bar/Bat Mitzvah, I just don't see Scout Shabbat being welcome, it's just not the direction of the rabbinic program, the clergy, or to be honest, the laity. I wish you success, I just think you are paddling upstream. I would find an open minded her traditional conservative synagogue to host your program. The decision if Chabad to open nearly free Hebrew Schools and Bar Mitzvah programs has totally annihilated the youth programs at the Reform Temples here, so they have double downed on empty nesters, gay couples, and the childless. It is a shame, because with a focus on serving ones religion and country. It's a great fit for Reform, and a lousy fit for Orthodoxy, yet the scouting growth in our council is the two Orthodox Packs, without a single Reform or Conservative one. Our council leadership is hoping to return to the non orthodox synagogues with the new membership guidelines. And lets face it, scouting is way too blue collar and hands on for the Reform membership. I hope I'm wrong, I think it could revitalize the youth departments at the Reform Temples, I just don't see any interest... The Non Orthodox Jewish population is aging, and reform is following the demographic trends, which is away from youth and towards middle age and elderly. Rabbi Yoffie made a bug show of revitalizing a more tradition oriented reform, but I don't see movement on the ground.

I think you have a situation with a stay-at-home mom that thought of herself as more of an alpha mom (hence her "left a 6 figure job to work from home and be with her kids" comment, while disparaging the PTA president as a "stay at home mom"). She thinks that she's smarter than everyone else involved in the BSA program, she disparages their careers, their lives, etc. This might all be true. But it made her a bad soldier. She thought that the status quo was wrong, she suggested changing it. Once everyone with authority to do it said no, she needed to drop the idea of CHANGING IT. If she thinks that she has personal liability from her few months as treasurer, then she needs to quietly remove herself from that personal liability, with minimum interference. Instead she used the excuse of "personal liability" to attempt to force her view after it was rejected. The Committee Chair told her no, she used her "I need to avoid personal liability" to overrule the Committee Chair in a backhanded way, that was wrong. Incidentally, on the facts of the matter, she's wrong, but that has nothing to do with how she handled the situation wrong. Then she came here, blasted people in her area, and when people here defended them, blasted people here. After that, she deleted her posts and ran away. The problem is her, not the people here.

Fraud implied criminal intent. I think that there is far more incompetency at the BSA than criminal malice. I don't think that the BSA's numbers are a complete and total forgery... Forgery implies that they are totally made up... they aren't totally made up, they are just wrong, imprecise, and not accurate. Nobody is at BSA inventing numbers. They total up the numbers from the Councils broken system, who total up unit numbers incorrectly, who have incorrect numbers because of broken tools. No one forged anything, but the numbers are all wrong.

Okay, if she's not wrong, what Tax Form was not filed by the Cub Scout Pack that has a potential set of fines of $49,000 as she was "told by her CPA." I maintain that the Pack is either a organizational unit of the PTA (same EIN), or a sub-group of the PTA (with a "For Banking Purposes Only" EIN), that has no legal owner and is part of the PTA. The financially from the Cub Scout Pack should be reported annually to the Charter Organizational Representative who brings them to the Charter Org financial person, who would incorporate them as part of the PTA's Balance Sheet/Income Statement (in the Corporate World with separate corporations becoming disregarded entities, this would be a consolidated return), and turn in the 990N (postcard return). I maintain that there is no missing tax return by the pack, nor did her Scout's financials materially impact any IRS reports due from the PTA to the IRS. If she is right, and everyone on here, in her committee, in her district, and in her Charter Org is wrong, then answer these questions that I posed to her: 1. What tax returns that the cub scouts were alleged by her to fail to file should be filed? 2. What law was not being followed that she was trying to follow?

Except this is true with all her posts... She comes on, tells us how great she is and terrible everyone around her is... when the other side is pointed out to her, she doubles down and adds insulting us to the process. Deciding that she should look into this was wonderful and overenthusiastic. Getting involved in the tax question without understanding the structure (and therefore she got an incorrect answer from the CPA, who answered HER question correctly, but she asked the wrong question) is overenthusiasm from a volunteer. It was when she went off half cocked DESPITE experienced people telling her she went wrong that she loses sympathy. If the concern was her personal liability, she immediately resigns, hands a report to the Committee Chair, and gets out of it. But since she was upset about how she was told she was wrong, she didn't care who she hurt. Or do you believe that the "email that upset the state PTA and put scouting in jeopardy" was a polite and factual email with the financials for including in their tax return, or do you think it was the same "OMG, taxes weren't paid, we're all going to get fined" that her posts on here were? Remember, the result of the email was a 1 hour tirade from her district executive?

BasementDweller, why would she feel guilty about ending BSA programs in her state? She doesn't like the program, doesn't like being involved, doesn't like her district executive, I think she'd be okay with the PTA throwing Scouting out, it might make her feel better that she showed the BSA for giving her a mean phone call.

GeorgiaMom has shown in her few posts here that she has a ton of friction with BSA, her CO, her Pack leadership, etc. If you have a problem with everyone, the problem isn't them, it's you. She was so certain of her righteousness (complete with the nonsense "opinion" of an outside CPA without the facts) that after being told by all involved that she was wrong, she quit scorched earth style. She came here for sympathy, and got told why she was wrong, so she deleted it. I think that reposting her comments is unnecessary, this thread should get wiped, but she wants out of this. I hope she stops personally involving herself in the BSA program at her school, she doesn't enjoy it, those around her don't enjoy her involvement, and her acting like a martyr is putting her son's program and the program of other youth in Georgia at risk.

According to the Tiger Book (or the Online Training), or Leader Guide, or something Tigers aren't part of the Pack... but they are no. There is no distinction between Tiger level and the traditional Cub level anymore, even though the Doodles/AOL Emblems show Tiger before Bobcat as a holdover from when Tiger was created as a mini level. However, Cubs has gone from a 9/10/11 year old program, to a 6-10 year old program, to adding 5 year olds (though we push the 11 year olds out to Boy Scouts, so its 5-10)... That's a BIG range. But we're seeing changes, they eliminated the Tiger/Webelos Leader Knots, we're all Den Leaders now, so no more "row of Knots" for 5 years of your life. Going younger is good, but you need to do something with Webelos. Kindergarteners and 5th Graders should not be really interacting. One thought I would have is that Lion Dens are NOT invited to Pack meetings until AFTER Blue and Gold. They should get introduced to the Pack @ Blue and Gold, which should be as you are sending off the fifth graders. Low key Den-only events for the little boys seems like it might help.

In fairness, given the antiquated systems the BSA has for adding youth (and no ability to remove them), I'm not sure that fraud is fair... I think that any membership number you get out of the BSA is practically a random number generator.

It sounds like your CPA has never filed a non profit tax return (quite common, actually)... most CPAs are auditors, most CPAs in private practice are tax accountants that handle individual returns 1040, partnership returns 1065, and S-corp returns 1120S... Most of them don't actually know how to do a corporate return (1120), and almost none of them know how to do a 990. My CPA was the non-profit person for a regional office of a national firm (not a Big 4). She said that of 600 Accountants in the firm, there were about 6 of them in the non-profit unit, and maybe 10 of them knew how to fill out a 990. It's a pretty rare work. I'm in the process of establishing a 501©6 professionally, and the IRS was backed up a year before the 501©4 explosion. Factually speaking, there is no missing tax return for the Cub Scout Pack. The Cub Scout Pack is a non-existant entity, it's a name, it MIGHT have a unique EIN, but it's part of the PTA's non profit. There is not a missing tax return. Your CPA doesn't know that, because your CPA doesn't have a clue how your entity is structured, or how this is reported. He does know how to answer "What happens if I'm the treasurer of a group that hasn't filed taxes in 7 years" -- you're screwed, pay me for 7 years of returns. You were the bank signatory for a club operating under the local PTA's 501©3 and therefore never needed to file a return. Providing the numbers at year end to the PTA was correct. Telling them that the Pack hasn't filed taxes in 7 years and that there is potentially $49k in penalties was simply causing hysteria and putting Scouting in jeopardy, and factually incorrect. If nobody from the Pack sent financials to the PTA, that's wrong, but probably irrelevant (the Pack's profits at year end are around 0), but the Pack can't fill out a tax return, it's NOT a legal entity that owes a tax return. You had a tax law question, you went to a CPA whose certified in filling out forms (not a Tax Lawyer specializing in matters of tax law), answered you incorrectly, and you responded by rattling a hornets nest. My local Starbucks store (company owned) doesn't file a tax return either, their PNL flows up to Starbucks Corporation and is part of their financials (their 1120 and their SEC filings). Not every entity in the world files a tax return. In fact, a club that simply collects dues (like a local rugby club) gets the same "for banking purposes only" EIN as my Cub Scout Pack operates on, and there is no entity for their numbers to flow up for. What tax return do you believe that your Cub Scout Pack failed to file over the last 6 years?

Your PTA probably files the 990 Postcard. There is no real amending it, nor does the IRS care. A change of < $500/year as the Cub Scout Pack makes/loses money is simply not material.

I've been through my Council's 990, we have big construction expenses where the camps are located, one "highly paid" scout executive that isn't that highly paid for his responsibilities, and 7 district executives whose pay isn't high enough to be reported on the 990. There is no large "rent expense" for some fancy building or anything else that would draw a red flag. I mean, BSA's leadership is amongst the highest paid for non-profits, but we're also one of the largest non-profits in the country, so that's not really shocking. I just don't see evidence that anyone is living large on popcorn sales, the guy who makes it to the top of a non-profit pyramid (or for profit pyramid) makes money, that's America. However, the Council, Pack, and CO all told you that it wasn't a problem. At that point, you've told everyone, and they don't agree with you. If you feel you have personal liability at that point, you have the option of quitting. You don't have the option of being a bully to get your way. I realize that you thought you were doing the right thing, but once everyone told you it they didn't consider it a problem, and you did consider it a problem, your only choice was to resign. I'm sorry that you found the phone calls chilly, but as pointed out elsewhere, your actions were inadvertently putting Scouting in your state in jeopardy, and animals backed against the wall tend to lash out.

I'm not a CPA, I do consult them, I have an overview understanding of tax law, I'm also not a tax lawyer. That said, a Cub Scout Pack doesn't exist. It is an extension of it's charter organization. It can get an EIN from the IRS for banking purposes only, but the Cub Scout Pack is not a legal entity, and therefore it cannot file a tax return. In terms of the bank signer and liability, I'm not sure why. I mean, if you failed to report income from the bank account (interest income), then you theoretically are at fault. However, as the person that collects checks, deposits them, and writes checks, you don't necessarily have a complete financial picture. CPAs always think everything is a big deal, and its a function of the preparer penalties. My CPA relayed a story she heard at a CPE program, a CPA did a small return (a few hours, < $1000 for the return), on IRS audit, turns out that the rental property was short term rentals, and therefore to be taxed as a hotel and not a normal investment property. The CPA just got the numbers on the rental, but didn't ask (had never seen this before). The IRS in the end gave the CPA a fine of around $15,000 in preparer penalties, on a small $1000 return. That's why CPAs worry about minute stuff. If the IRS decided to ask questions, the Pack would explain, the PTA didn't care, we're a non profit, and the PTA would look confused. In the end, since there is no taxes involved, there is no penalty or interest. But the CPAs involved might get hit with preparer penalties for not looking into this. If you are concerned, I'd total up the PNL for the last 7 years as each year, report it up to the PTA, and they can amend the 990s or not... You could break it down for them as needed, but it would probably be fine to report to them a number as "Cub Scout Pack, Net Income" that they could put on their 990. Since there are no taxes due, and it's all tax free, I'd just bring across the income for the past 7 years and report it all to the PTA, it's probably around zero. That said, I see your side, you're a volunteer, and you have liability, however theoretical and remote, and you are trying to do the right thing, which the BSA doesn't want you to do. I see the BSA's point of view, this is really immaterial, since any gear purchases are pretty minor (and can be written off in the year purchased), Cub Scout Packs don't have taxable profits. What do you have, a few hundred bucks in the bank at year end? I mean, it's a little hairy because you make dues money in the fall and spend it in the spring, but after the first year, that spreads out. However, if you keep raising the issue, you could put hundreds of charters in jeopardy. If you are concerned about the liability, you resign. You don't get to threaten the rest of the BSA's charters in town, which your running it up the flagpole at the PTAs might do. I mean, if you scared the statewide PTA into thinking that over cub scout Packs they risk their 501©3 designation, they'll ditch the cub scout packs in a heart beat. There are no profits in Cub Scout Packs. The IRS knows we exist, and knows that there is nothing to look at here. If the IRS was interested, they'd take action, and the BSA would have to ditch the entire CO model. We're a club, clubs don't file tax returns. The 70% of faith based charters don't file ("churches" are exempt), this is a minor issue. At a certain point you accept that things are hackneyed, or you don't. The BSA's rediculous offices seem absurd, but I assume that they were financed via donors donating buildings. I've dug through my Council's 990, they aren't dealing in large sums of money that are floating around. All non-profits have absurdities in them, the BSAs isn't that bad.

As an example, my parents Synagogue still has a NFTY youth group... Checking out their Facebook group, many of the leaders attended one of the local Catholic schools. The Reform movement has far less to disagree with BSA than the Roman Catholic Church, yet no shunning of their accomplishments with an organization that they have less in common with. Reform's animosity with Scouting may have been launched over gay rights issues, but its gone well beyond that.

I think that there are large cultural issues with the demographics within the Reform movement and scouting, that have nothing to do with gay issues. Between family expectations, the outdoors component, saluting flags and national service, etc., I don't see the Reform movement showing any interest in a gender based organization built around traditional American values. Like 00Eagle, I grew up Reform, and its just not the direction of them. I mean, the membership policy is a reason not to charter units. However, refusing to acknowledge the religious accomplishments of the children within your congregation because you don't share values with a supporting organization... their priorities are simply not built around family and youth anymore.

Hollywood Florida. Okay, Kindergarteners will create a problem for our structure, where for Den Meetings we meet as a Pack, do the opening ceremonies, then break into Dens. I can't have 5th and Kindergarteners together... I didn't have Webelos last year. But from a recruiting point of view, a Lion Round Up of Pre-K should do awesome, I would think. People haven't committed to other activities yet in Pre-K, and most houses of Worship offer Pre-schools, so that seems to me like a more natural recruiting environment. Also, with starting up a Girl Scout Troop as well, having the ages overlap would be a good thing. We want to do joint recruiting, so we can slide the girls in one direction and the boys in the other. The Girl Scouts start in Kindergarten, so this will help.

We had a Pre-K brother at most of our meetings last year, he had a blast, and when he was there, there was a parent plus his older (Scout) brother to help. I wish that I could sign him and his friends that are gung-ho for Scouts up in Kindergarten. If they launch Lions Nationwide, we might ACTUALLY have a useful Spring Round Up, because we can hit the Preschools and drum up interest. For us, it would let us recruit from Jewish Preschools before the boys float off into various schools, as a result, we find the kids at the Jewish schools, but not so much the regular Public Schools. I would think, Lions like Tigers were 10+ years ago, earn a special Lion Tag to wear on the Uniform when they graduate (like Arrow of Light comes over to Boy Scouts). Lions should get a bead/meeting, regardless of what they do. Tigers should get Arrow Heads for Electives instead of Beads that go away at the end of the year... now that Tigers earn the Bobcat, time to acknowledge that Cubbing is three years (Tiger/Wolf/Bear) instead of pretending that Tiger is really a different program, it's not anymore.

Jewish Thought: The Mishah (oral law) explains what is meant by the terms, the Gemara (commentary on oral law) codifies the laws, as expressed in the Talmud. We follow the rules by the Sages (Talmud), later Toral greats (Rambam, Shulchan Aruch), and contemporary men trained in Jewish Law. We don't follow rules based upon a Christian English translation of the Latin Translation of the Greek Translation of the Torah. The relationship with the Greek translation is complicated, but we follow the Hebrew Version... later translations are for the ease of understanding of the laity, not matters of Jewish law. In general, no idols, nothing that was at one time an idol, and nothing that could be considered an idol. Statues are generally frowned upon, though technically only prohibited if the materials are those that were once used to create idols. Jewish Law considers a "Vow" to be as binding upon the vower as anything in the Torah, so Jewish tradition holds that normal people (extremely pious historical figures excepted) do not make vows, affirmations and pledges are not at the level as a vow so are permitted. So pledging to honor the country under God is perfectly acceptable. The "flag" we are pledging allegiance to is not the physical flag in front of us, but the "flag of the United States," the authority of the United States. Jewish Law holds that as a normal rule, the law of the land is the law of the Jewish people as well (exceptions are when the state directly prohibits something required in Jewish Law, i.e. circumcision, religious worship, etc. The phrase you translated as "carved image" is referring specifically to the idols of Egypt and Canaan... peoples who worshipped fantastical creatures, or gods in the shapes of animals. It's not referring to a picture of a stream, it's referring to a carved mountain for a mountain god, etc. Very simple overview, if you want a real answer, instead of trolling a Scout forum, ask your local Orthodox Rabbi, who will give you a real answer.

When one of my parents who isn't registered oversees a Den Project while I'm off handling pack leadership, they've volunteered. Those of us that wear the uniform, are there every week, work outside of the meetings, etc., we're part of the unit, just as much as the boys... We just don't earn loops/pins/rank badges... I earn my share of Temporary Patches though...