Pack18Alex

It's not an option. Jewish law prohibits establishing a new structure during the Sabbath. So the tent needs to be up before Shabbat starts. Can't cook on the Sabbath, food has to be cooked before hand (or started just before and left to cook overnight, which is how our lunch is made. We have the gear to do it, and the plans on how to do it. The Jewish Committee is planning adult training to take place during our Kinnus (Jewish Campout, Hebrew for gathering), so we can get people trained during Sunday (and some training that is more discussion based can take place on Saturday). The rule is pretty unbendable in Jewish law. So you have to get the sites up. It also meant we couldn't repair guy lines that kids tripped on, so we got docked points at camporee, oh well.

The rule seems pretty clear, if a youth is eligible for membership according to CO rules, then he is allowed in regardless of his same sex attraction or opposite sex attraction. However, there is no obligation of the CO to accept people if their membership policies prohibit it. The BSA rules prohibit sexual activity for scouting age youth regardless. Though in practice it seems more likely that a scout having a girlfriend would not be assumed to be sexual activity while a scout with a boyfriend would be more likely to do so. Honestly, a conservative church based group uncomfortable with gay scouts needs to close their troop to just members of the church, and ban the youth for behavior at the church level and remove them from the unit, while they transfer elsewhere. This seems like such a mountain over a molehill.

We haven't done either, but if there was a request to get dinner in for a committee meeting, I'd probably do it. I normally host them at my house late at night (my wife and I are the only couple with both spouses involved, so this avoids our needing a sitter). However, if we wanted an earlier time, I'd have ZERO problem with using Unit funds for dinner and childcare. Here is my reasoning, EVERYONE that is active and involved on the committee are also the people that are out there selling Camp Cards, selling popcorn, volunteering in the Unit, etc. We all pay the same dues, but the committee is the people that put in the extra time to make it a good program. So "People do not contribute funds to a pack or troop to be spent on the on the adults." -- no, they contribute funds because it's a dirt cheap activity because of the volunteers, the people on the committee, make the program go. So are you redirecting money from those scouters to themselves, if so, who cares. Are you redirecting it from the non-active parents to the active-parents? I guess, theoretically, but the active parents are the ones that are fundraising. Again, we don't do it, but I don't have an issue with it. I paid for a babysitter once to attend Roundtable when my wife was out of town... I didn't bill it to the Pack, the money didn't matter to me at that time (other months it would), but if I did, I wouldn't have had any qualms about the Pack paying for the babysitter. I mean, I'm the volunteer that goes to Roundtable, if nobody else steps up, why is it so horrible that I might "tax" them all the $2/each it would cost the sitter instead of my contributing time AND cash?

Knew a bunch of Mormons back in school... absolutely fantastic people... as are the ones I do business with. The religion seems kooky because its SO modern... talking burning bush seems reasonable as a childhood story, move it from ancient Egypt to upstate New York and it becomes kooky. Don't have much of an opinion on LDS and Scouting, just an opinion that LDS turns out men and women of merit. Judaism does not consider same sex ATTRACTION as sinful, only the ACT itself (though the act being sinful is rejected by Reform Judaism, the most numerous branch). And the Jewish Committee on Scouting was extremely open about lobbying for the membership change. The efforts in our district to include us more are resulting in the program shifting on account of us... A big chunk of that is my personal involvement at the district level (something that nobody tried before in my unit). There are plenty of observant Jewish Units that will not participate on a campout over Shabbat (Friday at sundown until Saturday at nightfall). My unit is dedicated to Shabbat camping, but that's a function of who founded it and the culture founded with it. I find the bashing of LDS because they won't camp over their Sabbath to be a bit distasteful and bigoted. I'm sure the people that are comfortable bashing the LDS Units for obeying the tenets of their religious would be equally intolerant of my Unit of Christ-killers anyway. Moosetracker, I'm at the pack level, it's families putting up tents. I'm not happy with the families that decide to show up late and pitch a tent after Shabbat started, but I'm not sure if we want to ban them from future campouts... I suppose I could send them home or make them sleep outside, but at the Pack level its hard to do much. At the troop level, I'd hope that the boy that didn't have his tent up had friends that will let him crash for the night... I mean, starting too late on your tent isn't exactly being prepared, is it? My observant families wouldn't dream of setting up late, most of my families are respectful and show up on time and put their tents up.

Man y'all would hate my unit. Won't come to an event on Saturday, have to camp over from Friday. We bring our own food, religious services Saturday morning, can't do Scout's own... Campsite construction stops cold 18 minutes before sundown... Yes my district works with us to include us instead of using our differences to excuse bigotry.

That seems awfully legalistic. If they earned the loop, and earn the Pin as a Webelos, and you're fudging the loop requirements, who really cares? Honestly, if they put the time to working the sport, does it really matter if the Scout "explained the rules" to the Den Leader again when they did it years ago and clearly know the rules enough to play the game? I mean, if someone picked up the pin through all the "book parts" - read a book about a player and report kind of things, alright, so be it... But I would absolutely push earning the Pin. If you want to train them in BSA legalisms, make sure you can check the boxes for the loop. They'll probably earn it anyway... Have them work with the Cubs to teach the Cubs the loop, they'll earn the loop by teaching the cubs and earning their pins.

Basementdweller, Thanks for the link! I forwarded that and the website overall to my DE, who seems open to trying to shift some resources to Cub Scouts. The Boy Scouts shouldn't NEED facilities, they are supposed to be doing back country camping, right? For the front country Cub Scout campers, where whole families are going, it's overly primitive. Some of my old timer Cub Moms are appalled that since we've be doing more Council/District stuff, it's primitive camping... they like KOAs with hot showers, electricity at camp sites, and a swimming pool. Now, not a single one of those moms will be camping with the Troop once their son crosses over, and that's fine with me. Meanwhile, the Cub leadership needs to get the boys comfortable with camping outdoors, which some moms veto. We need to get boys into Cubs, Cubs into camping, Webelos into being useful while camping, and Webelos into troops. That's the end game. Sure the occasional new Webelos signs up (we actually got a bunch this year), and a few troops in our District recruit a few fresh scouts, but most of the new Scouts coming up the ranks start as Tigers or Wolves, some Bears, occasional Webelos... I can count the new Scouts on both hands in my district. But as long as Professional and Volunteer Scouters treat Cub Scouting as an afterthought, numbers will continue to Dwindle. If we had something like Dan Beard has for Cub World, I'd run recruiting events Saturday and Sunday all September long. Activities for the Youth to do, and then representatives from any Packs that want to show up can recruit, and also Council and provide information for people about Packs in their area. "Back in the Day" the troops recruited... been reading the original Scouting For Boys... a First Class Scout to bring a friend and get him trained up... if a boy wants to be a patrol leader, he should recruit a patrol and train them... Cubbing was started to recognize (and providing programming) for the junior corps of younger brothers that were already forming. Well, today, the Troops don't recruit, except from Packs. The Packs get limited help from the Troops (Basement Dweller and a few super star Units in my area excepted), and the Cub Parents are expected to run this program for their boys with the attitude from National/Council that all that matters is that we bust our ass so the Troops can recruit our boys. That's messed up, and that's why you're suffering attrition. Make Cub Scouting exciting in its own right, give Webelos the taste of Boy Scouting (while getting helicopter mom to calm down), and Boy Scouting becomes the draw to hold them in... But if recruiting for everyone is on the Cub Scouter's shoulders, give us SOME resources. In my Council, Cub Scouts account for about 70% of Popcorn sales... the money that goes to the Council funds overhead and Troop programming. My parents whose oldest is hitting Webelos don't understand why they should care about Cubs anymore, they're almost moving over to troop (nevermind they have another son in Tiger/Wolf Dens). This is what I mean by a broken model.

You're not unique, you're making my point. Scouters don't care about cub scouts. They are the ones sold on Boy Scouts, they put time into cubs so their son will be doing Boy Scouts. The professionals are the same way, cub scouting is an add on program to get boys into Boy Scouts. However, most parents that show up to a join scouting night are bringing their 6 year old son. The program they are sold on is cub scouts. So the ones in charge are all about the troop and maybe the crew. But the work on building scouting is all on the cub scouters to make it work. It's short sighted management by BSA. If the Boy Scout program was so critical to BSA it wouldn't have such high attrition. We have awful attrition (in the stats) at Webelos and first year Boy Scouts. Given that the troops do near zero recruiting and the scouters see cub scouts as something to get through is the core culture problem as BSA. Since almost all the recruiting is at the cub level, some energy should be focused there. One of the belt loops still talks about using a tape recorder (pin level)! As I spoke to my DE, in our district, cubs outnumber venturers 4:1, so why do the emails about council events for venturers and older scouts (implied venturers patrols) out number stuff for cubs 4:1. Why do recruiting events focus on canoeing and rifles when the boys being recruited aren't allowed to play laser tag? If your recruiting is for an indoor program, why scare my suburbanites with things their boys can't do for 7 years? If the troop program can't support itself, why not put resources into grown cub scouting as valuable on its own. If you can't fix the drop out process, why not at least grow your pool of scouts with cub scouting pushes?

Pretty good, but our goals were apparently too low. A handful of people are selling like crazy. We'd never done this one before, and it is pulling teeth to get most of my families to do much. Buy our new families were briefed and are doing what they are told. I was shocked how easy and fun it is. We stick to the $10 to $20 range, and people are generally happy and supportive. Scouts are excited for prizes. Dedicated parents want an awesome program. We got the jump on Girl Scout nuts so that is helping. The gift tins are outrageous unless its an office gift, but the $10 for 8 bags of popcorn doesn't buy anyone. Also, for the health conscious, the military donation is an easy sell, they can support the scout selling, get a donation letter on the spot, and not get chemical filled popcorn.

I think it's more cynical than that... National's numbers are down, this would be a one year juicing... which is critical to sell the membership guidelines change as a positive one so they can change it for scouters in the next two years and get corporate money back. In the past year they've been talking about gay people, fat scouts, and zip lines for a program that recruits 6 year olds to wear uniforms and do art projects. National pays ZERO attention to the cub scout program, where 90%+ of Scout Recruiting takes place. Middle/High School scouts hate uniforms, solution, talk about getting rid of uniforms (which the Cub Scouts LOVE). More high adventure for older scouts, no resources for Cubs. It's dumb... Despite all that, they desperately need to show that the Membership Guideline change was a positive one, and that it "slowed the rate of membership loss." Solution, Council Resources for Join Scouting Night as long as you only charge $10/Youth, $5/Adult, then ask for more money later. Sure, plenty of the kids will drop out before a meeting, but National can show how great the membership numbers are. No time to finish up the Lions pilot and roll that out, when there is more High Adventure Scouting to plan... I don't care about the fee increase, I care that it was done boneheaded and confused... JTE Guidelines: have a budget by 8/31/2013. My JTE Spreadsheet I'm supposed to fill out lists dues as 15/member. I'm now supposed to turn it in monthly, but my budget is broken. Stupid and sloppy for no reason. Focus on cubs, not gay people. Drop the gay issue from Cub Scouts ALLTOGETHER, it's IRRELEVANT to a program for 6 to 10 year olds. When someone asks me, my response, "I deal with Cub Scouts, if one of my boys is having sex, I'm calling the police, regardless of gender."

Option 1, quasi-merger. What about contacting a nearby Pack (the Cubmaster) about your shutting down the Pack, transferring your Two Wolves and Two Bears to their existing Dens, and you remaining as Webelos leader for just your Webelos Den, with no involvement in Pack leadership. You don't even have to be on their roster if they'd prefer. You'll meet with your Webelos Den as now, focus on them achieving Arrow of Light and Crossing over, and attending monthly Pack Meetings. You can dual register the boys in the new Pack, leaving your existing Pack's charter in place to not upset the church, keep the Charter and Tenure in place, and there is no cost to register with the second Pack. You can meet with them as Dens in Pack-X, they can attend Pack meetings in Pack-Y. The only person that needs to sign off on the boys joining Pack-Y is the Cubmaster. You need the CC/COR for you to dual register, but you could just wear your Pack-X uniform to Pack Y meetings and be a visitor, or wear civilian attire and just come as a parent. Option 2, stop recruiting. You have 4 Cubs, 5 Webelos. Meet Cub Den one week, Webelos the other week, complete their Trails/Rank/AOL, focus on crossing over the Webelos. Have a Pack Meeting whenever a boy earns a Rank Badge. Focus on getting your Webelos out of there, and the Cubs having fun. It seems like the Pack is dead, you're limited to too small a geographic area that doesn't have the housing that was expected. Turn in your paperwork, keep it alive, and focus on the boys. There is clearly an Adult Problem here, I think recruiting won't solve the problem, you have a leadership problem, an institutional problem, and a lack of interest problem. You can beat your head against the wall, or you can do cool stuff with your boys and move them to a Troop ASAP.

Flyer every home? Speak with whoever carves up the regions that you need more space? That seems ridiculously small. Do you have LDS Roundtables? Clearly, you need to speak to leaders in your area how to get yourself a viable size? 4 Cubs and 5 Webelos is simply not a viable program. You can't DO anything. You can have some den meetings and do projects (with the extra challenge of the LDS program, but Wolf/Bear achievements aren't hard to do twice/year. That said, you need to raise the viability of the program so people WANT to be in it. More Pack Activities, in public, with uniforms on, and less time doing crafts in your Den. Can someone join that doesn't live in your geographic area? What if they're not LDS, can they join then? Get flyers made, ask each boy to invite 5 friends from school. Recruit CONSTANTLY, you run each level program twice/year anyway, so you should do round up programs throughout the year. Recruit in September, December with a Winter Break Cub "camp" where you meet daily and do the Rank Advancement in two weeks. I mean, here is something of a draw, you do Trails during Winter Break, Spring Break, and Summer Break. The rest of the time, you do fun activities? I'm not sure, you need a hook to get people that aren't in your geographic area to want to join, since you lack boys to recruit from in yours.

We're doing great so far... Recruiting up 200% from last year, doubling pack size, another recruiting event coming up. So far mostly via word of mouth and social media. We actually flubbed our normal recruiting channels and had a very uncooperative Jewish calendar. Membership changes may have helped... We're finding groups like the JCC and Conservative synagogues receptive to us for a change. Around the district, no clue, ill know more at October round table. I'm counting the people showing up... Need to get paperwork squared away with everyone.

As a Jewish Scouter, I have no bone to pick in Mormons vs. Protestants vs. Catholics... and selfishly happy that the traditional ire between Protestants and Catholics (and jointly towards Jews) have found other groups to pick on. I wish them luck. I want to go back to making posters to do belt loops and earning Cub Scout Awards, really not interested in talking about gay people. I grasp the LDS "problem" with a gay Scoutmaster, just as GSUSA would never let me be the leader for a GS Troop (I can be a co-leader but need a female leader with me for EVERYTHING). But I'm not entirely sure why this issue can't be resolved at the CO level where the issue is ONE position in SOME units, and instead prohibits me from having a Gay or Lesbian Pack Committee member.

Very few of the Scouts (percentage wise) in BSA are eligible for high adventure (which does take money). The majority of "traditional scouting" members are Cub Scouts learning patriotism and doing arts and crafts project. If they provide a system that attracts young families with something of value, and the occaisional regional festival, that's enough. For the few that want more "high adventure," nothing stops them from kicking in $25/person to BSA for the year for insurance and registering as a crew with access to ALL BSA "stuff" without the need for uniforms, badges, and all the other costs of being a "real" Scout. If you want a high adventure program, $25/year is a drop in the bucket, a 1st Grade Tiger that continues through Eagle Scout and Venturing until age 20 will only spend a fraction of their time actually doing high adventure, let alone at a BSA facility. Our local BSA camps are available to outsiders, they pay an extra $2-$3/person for the privilege, but everything is there.

The Third Party sites say "year completed," which makes sense, because all the Summertime Stuff includes Den Stuff, and you don't really know your fall Den Numbers because Dens might merge/split in the fall. We used the year completed, because that lets an active Scout earn all 4 pins, and it makes zero sense to have no ability for a Tiger to really earn it and a Webelos be able to earn it twice. Same thing with Outdoor Activity Award... we do stuff all year, then we go to camp, camp is only offered in the summer. You could never earn the Tiger one unless your parents came as your adult partner?!?!? That's silly. That said, you can do it either way, whatever makes your Pack Go. Will the Summertime Pack Award incent Tigers to sign up in the Springs and do stuff with the special Tiger award (we tried that, totally failed, new Scouts have no idea what Scout bling is). Alternatively, does doing it with their Tiger Buddies give them a reason to come, and have a chance to "collect them all?" In general, a Cub advances at the later of: June 1st, assuming rank earned Sept 1st, assuming rank not earned I mean, why would you deny a Scout the summer to wrap up his prior year Rank? Electives? Who cares, work on the new ones. One or two away from an Arrow Point, wrap it up, then move on. I mean, my Scouts were psyched to move on to the next level, why would they stick at the old level. If one "missed out" on an achievement, why not let him wrap it up in June? Regarding the Pins... I look at it like Outdoor Activity. All my Scouts that went to summer camp had their new Patches, that was cool and different. Why wait until October/November to earn them at the new level. Finished the School year, go to camp, get cool new patches.

In our Council, you can dual-register. It's frowned upon, but because of divorce, sometimes its necessary. Regarding the early Bear... Well, if he's been bridged to Bears with BSA, he's a Bear. LDS has a different program, but once he's started on Bear, he can't "go back" and earn Wolf Electives... that's how we handle summer... if a boy needs summer to finish up, you can bridge them in the fall to start on the new rank, but you can't be working on both simultaneously. Once he's a Bear, no reason to demote him to Wolf. Check with your COR if you want to be a stickler... they could say that he can't participate in Den Activities until his birthday, but why bother. He's a Bear, Hat, Necker, Book, and all. If you're not comfortable signing off on his achievements until his birthday, that's your call, but no way can he be earning Wolf Arrow Points with you and working on Bear Achievements with his other Pack.

A few months back at a music festival, at the "youth" area Home Depot was giving away Tool Box kits. I think that they sell them for about $10... My son (Wolf) put it together with minimal help from me in about 20 minutes. I'd allocate 45 minutes if I had a Den, but very doable.

KDD wrote, "I am certainly not trying to be disrespectful of her faith, but I have a hard time understanding this particular situation. " Bullshit. You insulted her religious restriction is absurd, and in your apology dismissed it as " cheaters are going to cheat" What's your point? This isn't about her contemplating an affair, this is about a religious prohibition on her being in a one-on-one situation with a man not her husband. She didn't suggest she was attracted to him, just that LDS prohibits it. Since you're not LDS, the WHY is none of your business. That's what respecting the religious views of others requires, it doesn't matter if you agree with it or not, it's her religion, NOT yours.

I'm glad you have Mormon friends. Doesn't change the fact the Mormon bigamy jokes are a bigoted joke... I'm sure you have Jewish friends, but if you made a comment about my Pack excelling at being thrifty, it'd be an off-color joke. That said, her faith based CO prohibits here from being assigned as a co-leader with a single male partner. I don't pretend to understand Mormon law, but both Halacha (Jewish Law) and Sharia (Islamic Law) have similar provisions. I have no idea what Church Canon says on the matter. So between insulting her religion (and the religion of other peoples) and telling a "Mormon joke," I suggest you simply apologize, walk away from this conversation, and ask yourself why you felt the need to interject with bigoted comments on this blog. You need some sensitivity training. It's 2013, it's not acceptable in polite society to insult the religious views of others OR tell ethnic jokes about someone's religion.

The notion of men and women not being alone together is very biblical. The Hebrew word is Yichud, BTW. I would think that the presence of the Den would alleviate that. But in LDS, the Den Leader may not have a child in the den. I would think that the issue could be resolved by meeting in a public space, but it sounds like they are not looking for a solution. I'd join a non-LDS Pack, work with your son to complete his AOL while the adults get their act together. He can rejoin his LDS Pack when they form back up or when he bridges in a few months to the Troop. No need to miss out on a once in a life time opportunity while the adults play games. That said, the fact that the example was 2 Women/1 Man, and not 2 Men, 1 Woman, does produce a small chuckle, even if its inappropriate off-color humor that KDD was inappropriate to bring up in a public forum..

Check with the Den Leader, that's you. With the exception of the big stuff like the Den Hike, I don't see any reason that it matters. Also, contact all Packs near you (LDS or "gentile"), explain the situation, and see if he can tag along in their Pack's Den Meetings while this gets squared away.

If they are attending as siblings, i.e. in civilian attire, they should be treated like any other siblings, they can participate at a second table and stay out of the way. If they want to participate as scouts, they should be in uniform, the Den Chief should direct them, and they should help teach the younger Scouts. I think you are 100% on target. They should be paired with younger Scouts (NOT their brother) and helping teach/run it. Start introducing boy led. The Den Leader can slide back into a tracking achievement/supervisory role. Sounds like a great and controlled opportunity to give the boys some boy-run experience, even if it is still adult led (i.e. adult picks the activity, and starts it off). But absolutely, if you have Scouts there, they should be Scouts, not siblings. Making them put the uniform on might also help them take it seriously. If they don't want to do that, offer them a box of crayons and some coloring paper like I do with my 3 year old.

Stosh, why? I don't consider there to be anything immoral or unethical about an adult 21 years or older going to the bar after a drink. BSA policy is no drinking at BSA events, and no drinking in BSA uniforms because that reflects badly on them and their brand... I can respect and follow that (and its the perception of "drinking" as opposed to a "drink"), especially since one idiot does something drunk and stupid in a BSA uniform and immeasurable damage happens to BSA's brand. However, I'm not sure why I can't go to a bar and have a drink. Perhaps that violates your morals, but not mine.

AKdenldr, thanks so much. Glad to see I'm not crazy with that solution.