Bob White

We managed to keep this thread on topic for 24 posts Merlyn, please don't spoil it. The topic here is not funding nor is it about me. If you want to discuss the other topic feel free to start another thread still beating the same dead horse. But this thread is not the place.

Hunt, it's not a secret. Where is the documentation proving that helping others at all times is important? Where is the documentation that thrifty is necesarry?. These are simple the characteristics that the program was built on and holds important. If you are a person of faith then you understand why the BSA sees this as important. You say "It seems to me that either (a) one of them was right and the other wrong or (b) they were both wrong. They couldn't both be right." That's what you say, not what the BSA says. You are looking for a winner. One person with the "right" answer. The BSA is not. They are simply saying that as long as both parties have a belief in God and realize a duty to that God, that they (the BSA) are not concerned with the religious customs of that belief. You are welcome to believe that one is right and the other wrong, but do not project that need on the ideals of the BSA. Merlyn, You do not have a single shred of evidence to support that claim other than your own personal bias toward a program you do not meet the membership requirements for, have never belonged to, and do not understand.

"Does the BSA believe faith is a choice, and that people without it (ie atheists) are immoral, self-centered and misguided in their beliefs? No, what the BSA says is that its members need to take an oath to do Duty to God and to take action to fulfill that obligation, and that its members show reverence to God. Athiests choose not to do so and so do not qualify for membership. You cannot expect someone who does not believe in God to be able to teach duty to God, or Reverence to God, so atheists do not qualify as leaders. Your attempt to suggest that the BSA vilifies atheists is misleading and inaccurate. Whether a person comes to faith through choice, environment, or inspired revelation is irrelevant. That they can fulfill the scouting ideal of Duty to God is all that is required. "But don't we look at Muslim terrorists who hijack airplanes to murder people because God wants Americans to die as misguided in their beliefs?" I would hope that people would realize by now that those Muslims are misguided in their politics, more so than their beliefs. Scouting would not exclude a person for being Muslim, but would deny their membership if they had knowledge that they had hijacked airplanes or murdered people, regardless of their religion. "The BSA values Duty to God and understand that there are many different roads to the same destination." Now there are definitely many people who would strongly disagree with that. I don't think that you can comfortably speak for the entire BSA with that belief." I am not speaking on behalf of all members of the BSA. I was explaining what the position is of the BSA program, and yes, based on my knowledge and training I can say that very comfortably thank you. I would not try to speak on behalf of all 6 million members, I have not yet met them all, and not all of them follow the BSA program. "Many Christians DO see other faiths as false (I'm using Christianity because its the one I am familiar with and can speak from experience with) and wouldn't say at all that the BSA thinks otherwise." How one or a 10-million Christians see other faiths is again irrelevant, since we are not discussing how any Christian defines God, but about how the BSA defines its ideals, obligations and membership policies.

It shouldn't be. This is an error that should have been caught by A) The Scout, his handbook lists the specific offices he must hold for that requirement. B) the person who signed off the handbook, for the same reason. C) the Scoutmaster during the SM conference when he made sure the scout was ready for the BOR. D)The Board of Review when they reviewed that all requirements were met. E) All of the above The correct answere is E. So there are no take backs on this requirement at this point. But I would would gather all the parties involved and let them know that they must all pay closer attention in the performance of their responsibilities to avoid potential problems in the future.

"Could somebody tell me why you think properly constructed sheath knives in trained hands are more dangerous than properly constructed folding knives in trained hands? Willy can you show us where anyone said they were?

Be afraid, be very afraid. Someone, or several someones, involved in advancement at that camp are unfamiliar with the BSA advancement policies. Tenderfoot through Life ranks require a minimum of three committee members from that scout's unit to do the board. Say "thanks, but no thanks". If you cannot get three committee members there for a few hours wait till you get home and convene one ASAP.

What has caused the problem here are two errors in the original post. The first is the suggestion that the eagle application requires a recommendation from a religious leader. It does not. The second error is that a letter is required. it is not. What is required for the scout to supply are the contact names and information for 6 specific references. 1. Parents/Guardians 2. Religious 3. Educational 4. Employer (if any) 5. Two other references Note that the ONLY optional one is employer. If the scout does not have one he cannot give one. but that is the only optional one. A religious leader is not required but someone who can speak to the scouts performance in his Duty to God is a required contact. Without it the application cannot be denied but it should have been enough to keep the scout from passing the Board. Had previous boards fulfilled their responsibility this problem would never have had to be breeched. A letter is not required it is an option that the District Advancement committee can choose. These references can also be followed up on by using personal contacts or the telephone. (see "The Twelve Steps From Life to Eagle" in the the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual.) A Scout who could not show any evidence of fulfilling his Duty to God could be denied advancement and no appeals board would reverse it. The question to ask is not "what does A Scout is reverent mean to you?" taht just asks for a definition. The question to ask is "How do you fulfill your obligation to do your best to 'Do your Duty to God'?".

I can think of few converstaions I have had where one party or the other doesn't have some expectation of some level of confidentiality depending on the subject. I can understand that when a scout has a conversation with a leader that a certain level of confidentiality is understood and expected. Much as a person would expect from an employer or other authority figure. However the moment that the scout tells an untruth about our conversation that expectation is out the window. In this case I would have brought the scout over and in front of his parents say "Your parents have some questions that directly relate to the conference we had. Do you have a problem with me sharing that conversation with them?". I would ask the scout to stay and add anything you might miss. Even if what the scout had said was positive, I have always asked their persmission to share it with someone else just as an example to the scout as to how he should treat others. Certainly anything he shared that would seem to affect his safety of welfare or that of others I would have a responsibility to share with the appropriate people.

Lets not talk about the rights of a scoutmaster in this case. That refers to the courtesies due him from others. What we need to look at are the rights of the scout, and the responsibilities of the Scoutmaster. The SM has a responsibility to follow the program methods, policies and procedures.

Can a Scoutmaster prep a scout for his BOR? Sure. Should the SM prep the scout? Sure. There is nothing wrong with reminding the scout what the purpose of the Board is, give him some examples of the kinds of questions that may be asked. Asked the scout what he thinks would be an appropriate way to dress would be. Have the scout think about examples he might give if he were asked about how he represents the ideals of scouting in his life. Say the Oath and Law together to remind him of those ideals. Have him think about where he was and what he was doing when he passed his requirements. The Board loses none of its purpose or affect by the scout being prepared and capable of thoughtful answers.

EagleInKY, I find myself compelled to ask this... Why did the SM wait until the SM conference to bring this up? Would a more appropriate and certainly more effective time to counsel on this situation have been at the time it happened? If that was done and resolved then, why bring it up again now? Why only discuss what the scout did wrong and what the negative result of that will be. When were the imprtant issues dealt with? Why did the scout behave that way? Does he know how he could have handled things differently? Was he supported and or rewarded when he handled similar situations in a more scout-like manner? Anyone can point out a childs faults. What actions were taken by the leaders to develop and lead the scout into the desired behavior BEFORE the Scoutmaster conference? Does telling a scout that you want to see improvement tell the scout anything specific? It is a wandering target that he wont know if he hit until the next time you meet. When a scout is denied advancement he needs and deserves concrete and measurable actions to perform. A measurable goal. What could you have done to make the behavior you are looking for measurable for both you and the scout? Finally, in the case of goodkidsmoms son. Assertiveness is not the same as Brave. One is a part of the Scout Law, one is not. To use anything outside of the Oath and Law to determine Scout Spirit is adding to the requirement and it is a violation of the BSA advancement policies.

Packsaddle In the unit you serve is a scout ever asked to site examples of how he lives by the Oath and Law? For instance is he ever asked how he is helpful, or how he is trustworthy? What about Reverent, or is that simple passed over? Is he asked about his oath to help others at all times? Is he asked how he performs his duty to God or is that bypassed? What activities does the unit do to help others at all times, or to keep the scout physically fit? What about his opportunities to do service to God? You say he just has to sign the application and can change his mind anytime. What exactly do you mean by that?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Hunt you asked "Bob, are you saying that a scout must worship God as "creator?" I am not saying a scout has to do anything other than his duty to God and be reverent, as required by the BSA in the Scout Oath and Law. As long as the scout can do that he meets the requirements of his personal vows and the values of the BSA program. As I said in my first post, you are projecting your personal assumptions into scouting. You ask why the BSA supports following a false religion is better than having no religion? I know of nowhere that the BSA says or implies that. You point out the BSA recognizes wildly different (and inconsistent) beliefs and practices as satisfying its religious requirement, and pondering what it is, exactly, that we are valuing with this position. We are valuing diversity. The BSA values Duty to God and understand that there are many different roads to the same destination. You say "Although BSA's documents refer to "God," the BSA doesn't". That's just doubles speak. How can both those statements be true? You ask "why does BSA value adherence to any religion, no matter what its beliefs are" and as I pointed out that is a false premise based on your own false comprehension. Also, I note that you don't attempt to answer my question of why BSA has determined that a scout has the need "to accept a belief in God, etc." Because the BSA believes that Duty to God, and reverence to God (like the other points of the Oath and Law) are positive and necessary attributes for achieving the aims and goals of the scouting program.

Hunt, have you read the Scout Handbook's explanation yet?

"why does BSA value adherence to any religion, no matter what its beliefs are, You are unable to find a conclusion that suits you because your premise is incorrect. The BSA does not value an adherence to any religion. The BSA has determined that a scout needs to accept a belief in God and accept that he has a responsibility and duty to serve God in some manner. Whether that is done through a formalized or recognized religion is irrelevent to the BSA. It is not the belief or customs of any religion that the BSA cares about but the individual members ability to recognize and give service to God as the creator. See the Boy Scout Handbook for more information.

Firstpusk Which Bob? Threre are two Bobs that have posted to this thread and neither of us made any mention of any of the things you have refered to.

The council did play a role. The Council is the local non-profit organization that is the legal representative of the BSA. The unit is not. The unit used the name, image, and reputation of the BSA to raise the funds in its treasury and to purchase its equipment. You may not agree but this is in fact the case. You can find info on this in the leader manuals of the BSA programs.

Arm your son with some facts. Scout Spirit according to the BSA(and this is found in the Scout Handbook and a variety of other BSA sources) refers to how the scout lives the Oath and Law in his everyday life. Assertive is not mentioned in either of these oaths. The qualification of "assertive" needs to be stricken from the converstaion in the Board of review. I would suggest that the District Advancement Chair meet with the Committee (and the SM) sometime before your sons BOR and review with them the purpose and elements of a BOR. Otherwise you are sending him into trap.

So Hunt, What specific situation has arisen in the unit you serve where you felt a scout was worshipping a false God?

Jason, Thank you but a simple reference to where the material appears will suffice. We all have the ability to follow a properly posted link. As I wrote in response to your original question, the environment is mixed and always has been. While the opinions of the 6 million or so members may differ the BSA has been steady in it's commitment that a good citizen needs an understanding of his/her duty to God. As long as each individual does his or her best to fulfill their personal commitment all will be right in the world. Boleta, Even the children of non-religious nuts are welcomed in Scouting. It is the ability of the scout or scout leader to be able to meet the requirements of the Oath and Law that concern the BSA, not the faith or sanity of their parents. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

ScouterPaul, Would you agree that (like the rest of the adult members of the BSA) Rooster has an obligation to follow the policies and methods of the BSA as he agreed to do when he voluntarily applied for membership regardless of what he may believe? So is the issue here about 'what we believe' or about what we have taken as an obligation to teach and support?

No thats not what I said. I am saying that rather than raise an objection, recruit them if they feel they are qualified. it is not for the unit to determine their qualifications. that is the job of the District/Council Advancement committees ONCE they have received an application. This will do a number of things for you. First it reminds them that to sign off on a merit badge you must be a registered approved counselor. Second, it avoids an unnecessary confrontation and allows you to get the message across in a more positive manner. Thirdly, it resolves the issue with the scout, he will either have a qualified counselor from mom or the COR or he will know that he needs to see a qualified one. (We will come back to this point). Fourth, shares the work with the District/council advancement committee. They have the responsibility to approve or disapprove, the unit has the responsibility to train them if approved. Everyone doing their part to benefit the scout. Lets go back to point three. It was the Scoutmasters Job to see that the scout had a registered approved counselor BEFORE issuing the blue card. Did he do that task or not. If he did then a counseling session with the scout is in order to find out why that counselor is not involved. If he did not then your problem isn't mom or the COR. Your SM left a void in the process and nature abhors a vacuum. His error in administration is what welcomed in the problem. Once you have the scout taken care of it is time to get the SM back on track. Hope this clarifies things. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"What I'm saying is that athiesm doesn't just automatically reject values that Scouting teaches. No but it does automatically reject one value we teach. And that is your choice. To deny membership to those who reject that value is the BSA's choice.

What does your faith tell you the difference is?

Great approach BadenP:)