Vicki

You're welcome Srisom. I'm sorry your folks' experience was obviously not as meaningful. My course, beyond what I've already described, was incredibly intense. We were expected on the parade ground ready to go at 7 am and weren't done until after 10:00 on both Fridays and Saturdays. If the patrol assignments weren't done by then, well, that's when they got done. Dismissal on Sunday was at 5:00. The patrol met either once or twice (or more, for some) in between the weekends to get assignments done. As far as ticket items go, that was left up to the TGs - ours expected them to be written up in draft form for the second weekend (except for the diversity ticket item). The finalized version wasn't due until after the course was finished because he didn't want us to lose any of the course's value by concentrating on writing ticket items. When all is said and done, I feel I've earned my beads - or will have when they're presented March 10th. FB, it's a shame when others feel they have to diminish a person's experience. Vicki C-12-04, Go Bears!

Kristi, Anarchist is on the right track with this one. If you do anything to confront him before he is off of the bank account, he might just clean it out for spite. This is life at the down and dirty (been there, done that). Don't tell the bank the whole story, just ask what you need to do to change the signers to the account. You can probably get a duplicate set of keys from the church. Then proceed with the rest of the coup. Vicki

Srisom wrote "No real patrols. No patrol cooking, meetings, etc. No outdoor activities at all. No uniformity in the uniforms by staff or participants. No consequence for actions." Wow. I hadn't read your e-mail when I posted my prior reply (and BTW, that was OGE w/the 19th amendment comment, not Eamonn). I obviously didn't take the same course as the people you've spoken with, Srisom. We were the Bear patrol - yells, flags, songs, emblem embellishments and all. We ate as a patrol (in our council, whether or not that's dining hall or patrol site is a function of the camp where the training is held, not the course), met with our TG for sessions as a patrol, slept as a patrol, the whole nine yards - just like our troop does it. The whole course was outdoors with lots of outdoor activities mixed in with the butt-numbing sessions. Staff and participants were required to be in full uniform unless it was just too darn hot (August in the mid-west) - then, with permission, we took off the uniform shirt to reveal the course t-shirt underneath. In terms of consequences for actions, individuals either take consequences for their own actions or they don't. I don't remember the course materials addressing that. Vicki

Whoops, one other point I meant to make - Eamonn, while I did not take the old WB, I do feel the new WB makes quite a point of the patrol method. Everything we did was as a patrol, and I mean everything! and in WB order, to boot. That taught patrol order by overwhelming example even if our instructors hadn't made a point, on several occasions, of mentioning that "the patrol order isn't just a method, it is the method (BP)". Vicki

Interesting observations - perhaps some traditions were retained in some places and not others. We elected a permanent Patrol Leader at the overnight and there was a very special ceremony at the end of the last night of the course in which we all participated. (Those 19th amendment folks would have been very disappointed with their choice, Eamonn, fellow ursine:

Thanks! I'd heard about that this morning, but didn't put 2 + 2... Vicki

Well, the campaign hat is now a thing of the past in my council, anyway. Went to NYLT orientation this weekend - we'll be wearing the same ballcap as the boys, ours will just say "staff" on it. As I mentioned earlier, they had already gone this way for the spring Wood Badge course. Vicki

Cubmaster Mike - that sounds like a great system! Going to share that with our CC. Thanks, Vicki

Having followed this story, my understanding is that one example of the fraud is that there was almost an entire troop made up of "John Doe". I don't remember the exact number. Having been involved in accounting and/or auditing for a number of years, I will lay you odds (whoops, no gambling intended) that there is an expense account out there with some falsified expense reports for miscellaneous stuff that actually went to cover minimum registration fees for the non-existent troop. Talking to an ex-DE friend of mine, he says the pressure is enormous to "make their numbers". Jobs depend on it. It's too easy to measure numbers and much harder to establish metrics that measure how well the program is administered. But numbers are not the story and shouldn't be. Again, as an accountant, I can tell you that even with all the controls in the world in place it is still possible to figure out a way to embezzle or defraud. You may or may not get caught (or you may think you won't get caught). But internal controls at least stop the easy stuff, like troops of John Doe. Let me preface my next statement by saying that I believe in the importance of honesty at almost any cost and I have been honest in situations where it cost me dearly. But it's just not reasonable to put that much pressure on people and then make it easy for them to be dishonest. If it were your mortgage on the line (as in losing your job)? It's putting unfair temptation in their way. On the SSN issue - just because an application asks for it doesn't mean you have to give it. I gave the BSA mine because they needed it for the background check. They don't have either of my son's SSN's. Vicki

I think I'd probably sit down with the CM first and ask him exactly what he thinks he's doing (in as nonconfrontational a way as possible). It almost sounds like he just went to a training class or talked to somebody who said, "this is the way you should be doing it" and jumped without thinking. You're assistant CM, in an ideal world, since you're supposed to be on the same page as the CM, he should have at least let you know what he was planning, if not gotten some input from you. On the money thing - yes, the money should go to a Pack Treasurer in an ideal world. In the real world, I'd think only "big-ticket" items like payments for the B&G banquet, etc., are handled that way (usually). This needs to be dealt with quickly though - that Arrow of Light is too important! Knots can be handled any time... Vicki

As long as the parental involvement requirement (above Tigers) doesn't include necessarily having to stay for every meeting, I agree with it. Let's use my younger son's den - they meet right after school. No way can I be at any meeting at that time. I wasn't asked when meetings would be convenient for me - no problem. But the consequence is that I won't be there. If it's my turn to provide the snack, I make arrangements to get it there ahead of time. If they need another registered adult for camping, I'm there (although I'm troop-registered and trained, not Cub). But I want my son to learn independence so I don't go on every campout. Not to mention that I camp with the troop, too:

Semper, your loss:

We have taken a page from the schools' book - when we get an updated medical, we also have a form the parents sign giving us permission to give them normal OTC stuff like Advil or Tylenol and put down the dose. Also, and you'll howl at this one - when it comes to chafing and jock itch, somehow (lost in the mists of time), someone discovered that Vagisil is the best thing going for treatment. No, I am not kidding or pulling your leg. Try it in secret next time, if you don't believe me:

A timeless answer, Knotty Fox, from the first resource. Thanks, Vicki

I think their award should be recognized along with the other boys at the B&G. The more "den as a unit" emphasis the better, if for no other reason. If I convert this to troop - our scouts get their rank advancement right away in front of the troop. Then, at the next court of honor, they and their parents are called up and the SPL gives the parent's pin to the scout who gives it (99% of the time) to his mom. Once in front of the troop, once in front of parents, guests and troop (or pack). Vicki

>Bottom line, if you are registered and have any dealing with the boys (that includes Committee members),> Eamonn and SRxxxBeaver have illustrated our troop's rule with the above statement. In fact, this is almost exactly what I was told when I asked if I should buy a uniform as the Treasurer who also camps. After registration, before I was trained, I bought a shirt. A few weeks later I got the rest, "in for a penny, in for a pound", after all. Shirt was awfully plain, but that got fixed in a hurry:

Yep, forgot the SPLs role. Don't know why I did that - our SPL has been a rock. 16 years old, level-headed and looked up to by all. Still 16, but generally a really good guy. I would think your SPL should at least be kept in the loop and part of any discussion you had with the PL. Vicki

We have a boy with very serious behavioral problems. He is under professional care. Actually we have several boys under professional care, but he is the most obvious. On campouts we dole out several medicines very carefully. The only way we've been able to handle him as an active member of the troop is a) work very closely with his mother (single parent with some of the same issues he has) and b) the SM, ASMs and our cadre of camping leaders keep a weather eye out for when he's getting out of control. That's not to say adults are on him all the time, far from it, as a troop we take a very hands off approach. Usually just a mild admonition brings him back, sometimes the SM needs to take him aside. But, and this is where Eamonn is spot on - if his medications are off or have been changed, it's obvious. His mother always lets us know to watch him in those situations and we always let her know whether or not there's been a problem (other than stuff that stays at the campfire). BL, I think your PL might need some more support and guidance from you. In my relatively limited (but growing) experience, I think you've gotten some very good advice from the others here. Vicki

anarchist wrote "if the question has come up a year plus out from boys scouts do you suppose it was dropped on vickie buy a driveby rabbit? " anarchist, I believe I've gotten what I needed on this topic from this forum, district, the boy's parents, other people involved with special needs, etc. Did need to respond to this however - it came up in a discussion with the boy's mother about two years ago at a Cub Pack function when she and I were working a game table together. She was anxious about how her son would fit in and what would happen if he got discouraged because he couldn't do the activities. He is an over-achiever, a good thing. She had no clue who to approach or that the BSA would even have any other avenue besides the published one applicable to totally-abled people (Semper, you were right on in your description). So when I went to Wood Badge, my TG and I agreed that it would be a good thing to try to alleviate her (and her husband's) anxieties through exploring the issue. End of story - no driveby rabbit. Vicki

Check out this site http://www.scout.org/front/index.shtml It's the World Organization of the Scout Movement. You'll find loads of information there and some pictures of other uniforms (I remember a Scouter from Kenya featured in one). I'd also do various permutations of what you're looking for in Google. For example, search on "world scout uniforms." If you don't get what you want then search on "boy scout international uniforms." You get the idea. Vicki

and three free checkups with your neighborhood dentist! Wow. I can just imagine his mom on the extension (as they mention in the article) - "I'm sorry sir, would you repeat that?" Vicki

foto, what I've done is allay this scouts' parents concerns about the BSA program and their son's place in it. I've let them know that should the need arise, the BSA is there with a way to help them answer any further questions. I haven't prejudged anything and, if you think so, then possibly you haven't read my posts very carefully. I came seeking guidance and I appreciate those who have provided it. Vicki

Let me ask a second, follow-on type of question - how many of you have been asked to plan any part of your ceremony? The input I'm getting from other resources is that most of the time the recipient invites the guests and provides the refreshments and that's about it unless they specifically request input. Thanks again, Vicki

I will be getting my beads on March 10th at our troop meeting (where my ceremony will be the lion's share). Very excited, also apprehensive - I understand the ceremony is supposed to be about 30 minutes long and the Scoutmaster's actual presentation only takes about 15 of those minutes. I have been told that I should come up with something memorable and appropriate that will encourage others to participate in scouting in meaningful ways (Scouts and Scouters). Food will obviously be involved (duh). I have enough pictures and "stuff" for an exhibit table. More thoughts: have the Woodbadgers already in our troop (about six) stand up and be recognized and have the members of my patrol who can make it share their most memorable moment. That could actually do it. But, and here's the point of my post, what have you done or seen that you thought was really great in a troop meeting setting? Thanks in advance, Vicki C-12-04 "Energetic 8-clawed Bears"

...a good ol' Bear, too. Have a good time. Make sure to breathe and take time to look around. It's really easy to get caught up in the "gotta get this done" aspect and lose sight of the big picture. Even amongst the adults, it's all about the scouts. A couple of other posters are right - it's not that it's a big huge secret, it's just important to get the experience all at one time for yourself rather than get it through somebody else's eyes. Just finished my ticket after taking the fall course - getting my beads March 10th! Vicki Hampton C-12-04