Trevorum

In our recent "shoebox campout" (see earlier thread), which was essentially a survival weekend, we had lots of plastic garbage bags as ground cloths, shelters, and ponchos. They worked great, but another troop camping nearby kidded us that we looked like a bunch of homeless people!

Fred, thanks for the cite! Seems pretty clear, at least for Cubs. But now I am confused. FScouter (whom I have always respected as the authority on uniform protocol) says yes. Can anyone clear up this issue for us?

It sounds like you are in favor of freedom of choice for yourself, but not for others. Surely you don't mean that. I'm very glad you were given the opportunity to choose for yourself; don't others deserve the same freedom?

Hi Neil, This young man has demonstrated bravery in more ways than one. My sincere wishes for his safe return to America.

AHG Mom, You emphasize freedom of choice. Do you support the right of each American to make an informed choice about the important issues that affect them, including matters of faith as well as health care, family planning, and choice of marriage partners?

"... the question of whether the Church of Satan members are actually atheists, which obviously raises a different question." NJ, I had the same thought, but then started thinking about the apparent similarities (at least from an outsiders perspective, and based solely on the summaries at that website) with Buddhist philosophy. In any event, I think that the scenario is most unlikely. I suspect that mosts Satanists tend to be rather counter-culturist and would not desire to join such a traditional organization as scouting; the two organizations are mutually self-exclusive despite the overlap in respect for nature, etc. I think more likely would be attempts to join BSA by other misunderstood minorities such as Druids or or by practictioners of traditional Native American shamanist faiths. I'd really like to know more about those types of interactions. Hmmm ... that's a great idea for a research topic! ... I wonder if I could get funding ...?

WONDERFUL photos! :) For all of our differences in language, Scouting is Scouting!

In the BSA, Scouts accept 3 kinds of duty: Duty to God and Country, Duty to Others, and Duty to Self (physically strong, mentally awake, morally straight). Our duty to country includes learning about our country, our history, our laws. etc. Before every Scout meeting and each morning in camp (raid?) we salute the flag and say in unison our Pledge of Allegience to our flag and country. Is it the same in France?

Religion and science are not incompatible. They are merely different 'ways of knowing'. They pose fundamentally different kinds of questions. Religion provides answers to the kinds of questions that science can not address, such as ... Why are we here? Why is there evil? What happens after we die?

When I started collecting CSPs, I looked for a map of councils with boundaries shown. No such animal, at least outside of the Sanctus Sanctorum in Irving. There are several good regional maps available, and pieces of historical maps. I tried creating one from examining dozens of websites and completed Texas before I gave up. Here is a list of all councils, effective July 2005: http://scouttrader.org/References/csp.shtml

Well, Fort Davis may be a bad example; when we did the progarm in 2003, the fellows got a cool cloth patch, not a cheap plastic badge!

Thanks, Yes, I am thinking of the program offered by the USS Lexingon (http://www.usslexington.com/aboard.shtml), or by the National Park Service at Fort Davis(http://www.nps.gov/foda/pphtml/forkids.html), for example.

That last sentence should read, "... why should BSA say that these people ..." (still unable to edit my own posts!)

Rooster, now that is an interesting question. I, too, don't know whether BSA has ever confronted the issue with self-proclaimed Satanists. I don't know much about that belief system, but a bit of quick reasearch has led me to suspect that BSA probably prefers to avoid the issue entirely; there appears to be a lot of hype about Satanism going way back to the witch-burning days, but the core beliefs don't seem to be incompatable with core BSA principles. from: http://www.religioustolerance.org/satanis1.htm "Religious Satanism is a valid religion, generally followed by adults. It is essentially unrelated to teen Satanic dabbling and to various other beliefs and practices that have been described as Satanism. The largest of the many traditions within Religious Satanism is the Church of Satan (CoS) ... The beliefs, practices and rituals of the Church of Satan have few, if any, points of similarity with the Christian or Muslim concept of Satan. The CoS' Satan is pre-Christian, and derived from the Pagan image of power, virility, sexuality and sensuality. Satan is viewed as a force of nature, not a living quasi-deity. Their Satan has nothing to do with Hell, demons, pitchforks, sadistic torture, demonic possession, and profound evil. ... Some of their beliefs and practices are: They do not worship a living deity. Major emphasis is placed on the power and authority of the individual Satanist, rather than on a god or goddess. They believe that "no redeemer liveth" - that each person is their own redeemer, fully responsible for the direction of their own life. Satanism respects and exalts life. Children and animals are the purest expressions of that life force, and as such are held sacred and precious. There are probably fewer than 10,000 religious Satanists in North America. In answer to your question, if Satanism (or your "unnamed religion") could be shown to violate the principles of the Scout Oath and Law (for example, by teaching that lying is good), then I believe members could not legitimately join BSA because they could not promise to uphold the Law and Oath. Rooster, yes, you are correct that "anyone can creat a religion". It happens all the time. Most of them fail (Jim Jones, David Koresh)), some gain a foothold (Ron Hubbard, Bah'u'llh), and some are spectacularly successful (Jesus, Mohammed). If Brad Pitt started a new religion tomorrow based on the teachings of the Big Bopper and revolving around the mysteries of some 'Master Talent' force and next week had 50,000 converts, who would BSA to say that these people could not be Scouts?

Can Scouts and Scouters wear patches that are not issued by BSA? For example, state park patches that may be earned by completing certain requirements.

Hunt - atheism is not a "religion" because, by definition, it does not embrace a theology (beliefs in supernatural entities or forces). Rooster, I am still very curious why you claim, "Not every religion is openly accepted by the BSA."

... if we take our obligation as mentors seriously, we should not mindlessly accept whatever a Scout happens to spew out. I think I understand why you feel this way. However, do you realize that this is in direct contradiction to official BSA policy which says that BSA is "absolutely non-sectarian" in matters of religion. Moreover, the BSA bylaws state that " ... activities of the members of the Boy Scouts of America shall be carried on under conditions which show respect to the convictions of others in matters of custom and religion." By expressing disapproval of a scout's religious beliefs you are violating this bylaw. You don't have to accept his beliefs, but you must allow him to freely believe in them.

Not every religion is openly accepted by the BSA. I find this staement puzzling. Why do you say this? While some religions do not have their own religious award recognized by BSA, I've never heard of BSA actually refusing to accept ANY religion.

Yes. ... A better question might be: What will you do TOMORROW to fulfill your 'Duty to God'?

An anthropologists view of religion goes something along these lines. Religion is a social contruct that maintains community cohesiveness by integrating 3 key elements: Theology, Ritual, and Morality. Theology usually is expressed as an integrated system of beliefs in a variety of supernatural entities and forces (gods, demons, etc.). Ritual is a system of stylized behaviors which self-identify the individual as a member of the group and which reinforce and tie together the various supernatural elements. Morality is a system of behavioral rules which allow people to live together in harmony; often the consequences of violation of the rules are tied back to the supernatural aspects. In this school of thought, a god is a supernatural entity often (but not always) with special powers. Some gods are interested in human affairs, other are not. Some gods are eternal and/or all powerful, other gods have definite limitations, sometimes including mortality. Some gods are good, other gods are evil, some are both, others are just mischievous. All religions contain each of these 3 elements. If a social system does not include all 3, then it is not a religion. However, different religions integrate these 3 elements in different ways and often emphasize one element over another. For example, Christianity puts more emphasis on theology than Shinto, which in turn emphasizes morality and proper living more than Christianity. In the same way, some sects of Christianity are more ritualized than others. This social view of religion does not deny the benefits to the individual: a sense of belonging and fathomable answers to mankinds eternal questions (why are we born?, what happens after we die?, why is there evil?). Of course, there is also the school of thought that says religions are just cults with more members.

Hugs and Alki, between the two of you, I am now understanding much more about Scouting in France. It is different in structure, yes, but I suspect it is very similar at the grass roots level (for the boys) Alki, I presume you were on an LDS mission?. Here in the BSA, most troops (11-17 year old Scouts) will go camping once every month. Being outdoors is one of our important methods (pedagogie!) Most monthly adventures will have a theme (backpacking, caving, swimming, boating, etc.) There are 8 methods we use in BSA: 1. Ideals (Scout Law: Trustworthy, Loyal, etc.) 2. Patrols (small groups of boys working together 3. Outdoors 4. Advancement (working on badges, earning awards) 5. Personal Growth (character, mind, body) 6. Adult Association (adults a good examples) 7. Leadership Development 8. Uniform Back to outdoors. Most troops also go on a week long camp once every summer where boys have special opportunities for adventure (rapelling, sailing, etc.). The older boys (14-17 years old) within a troop may also choose to do something more adventurous like canoeing down a river, or backpacking through the montains (3,000 m!) or SCUBA diving in the ocean. Separate from troops are the coed (boys and girls) units called Venturing Crews (not Scout troops). These are also within BSA, but are for boys and girls 14-20 years old. These crews do adventures that are more appropriate for the older teenagers. All coed Crews have both men and women as adult leaders. Your mention of "raid without food in the bag" made me smile, because we do the same thing. We call it "survival camping". Scouts learn how to survive "in the wild" with little or no special equipment. This is always very popular and fun with our boys. This year we taught them how to start a fire using ONLY an aluminum drink can (like coca cola) and a tube of toothpaste! Once a year, many troops in the same town also join together in a big 'camporee'. This has 10-20 troops and maybe 300-500 boys. The troops compete against each other in skill games such as pioneering (building structures from from logs and rope) and other scout skills. Every 4 years, scouts from all over the USA have our National Jamboree. We just finished this last month. There were 32,000 scouts and 8,000 leaders together in one giant encampment. I am not sure what you are asking about Scoutmasters. Can you re-ask the question please? BSA offers many, many different kinds of excellent training. The leader of a troop (Scoutmaster) is chosen by the troop's committee of adults and is approved by the troop's sponsor (the local church for example). Usually the Scoutmaster is already very experienced in Scouting, but not always. Scoutmasters new to scouting have several training sessions (both video, classroom, and outdoors) so they can learn how to lead a troop of boys. We also take safety (securitie?) very seriously. In addition to several very basic principles (scouts always use the 'buddy system' [are never alone while outdoors], an adult may not be alone with a scout, etc), we have many common-sense safety rules in our booklet "Guide to Safe Scouting", such as always using flotation jackets while boating, etc.

LOL! so its both yanking our chain AND asleep in high school science class! Say, have you heard about this great new theory, "Intelligent Falling" that refutes the problematic theory of gravity? http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4133&n=2

"The great thing about books is sometimes there is pictures!"

jd, you're grinding your teeth ... I can hear it ...

Wow! Great link and great adventure! THAT'S what I miss about California!! I especially liked the advice to bring gloves so that you wouldn't fall to your death or get blisters (yes, let's certainly avoid that! )