Trevorum

Here's one from a fine young man who just passed his Life conference:

Generous

One reason I asked is that our troop has a long history of making the Class B our regular uniform for troop meetings during the hot summer months when the boys are outside and active and get sweaty and grimy (ugh). (Of course for any BoR, CoH, SM conference or other special event we require full Class A. )

At the start of every meeting, summer or winter, we say the Pledge of Allegiance and salute. I can see the other side of the issue, but I think we'll keep saluting.

Yes, of course you are right. I assumed that we were all talking about the programs that are recognized by BSA and the awards for which a boy may wear on his uniform.

To clarify: Under BSA's "rule of 25", the religious awards of only those faiths which are the chartering organization of at least 25 units nation wide will be recognized as valid for uniform wear, after review and approval by BSAs Religious Relationships Subcommittee.

I see the particular issue (liberal/conservative, red/blue, left/right, hawk/dove, idiot/thoughtful) as being irrelevant. Same thing regarding whether a boy agrees with his parents.

The issue is courteous behavior.

If I became aware of this happening, I would ask the SPL to take action and remind the boys that while differences of perspective are normal, and debate is healthy, we can avoid acrimony.

(and again, I'll apologize to Rooster, to whom I was discourteous a while back.)

Good point Sparkie! That's the solution. Women Cub leaders who prefer to wear tails outside should wear the yellow blouse.

But what about women scouters in trooops or crews? Do they have any options?

When I was a CM, I saw that our guys were quite proud to recieve that new neckerchief. They worked hard for it and it reinforced their accomplishment.

In the troop I'm with now, we use the same model. New neckerchiefs are awarded for Scout, T'foot, 1st Class, and Eagle. We use the same basic design and color scheme but with increasing elaboration of design (Eagles have gold trim).

Great link from Tidewater Council, thanks! It does not explicitly say that the honor guard salutes, but it has an illustration showing this.

I've always thought that they were to stand at attention but not salute (ready to catch the flag if it falls, I guess). but I was wong.

I have never heard that "being 'morally straight' includes foreswearing sex outside of marriage."

I know several single, adult scouters of both genders who are extremely moral and I can not believe that they are celibate. I can't believe that BSA would ever try to regulate it's (heterosexual) members' bedroom behavior.

Right, Semper, but how is "uniform" defined? Is the Class B considered to an "activity uniform" in distinction to the "Class A". If not, why do we call it a "uniform" ?

I agree with Semper (as usual!) that a pre-printed OA ballot is EXTREMELY helpful. It explicitly identifies those and only those boys who are eligible and makes voting and tabulation far easier.

However a caveat from our experience last year. Check and double check your list before printing. We had an eligible scout accidently omitted and he was naturally not elected. Afterwards, he was confused and disappointed, his dad was upset, I was mortified and apologetic. But, as scoutlr said, there is no "do-over".

Here's two saluting questions that I have never been certain about ---

1. Do scouts in the so-called "Class B" uniform (Troop T-shirt) salute or place their hand over heart? I've seen it both ways.

2. Do members of the color guard salute the US flag and say the Pledge with the Troop or do they just stand at attention. I think it is the latter, but again I've seen it both ways.

Thanks!

I would think that the tucking question would be up to the unit. I know that some women do not like to tuck in shirts, ever. As long as everyone is neat, maybe it doesn't matter.

However, everyone in uniform should salute, regardless of gender. Those not in uniform place their right palm over their heart.

That's the way it is in our troop and it works great. I am very happy to have a wonderful, dedicated volunteer who manages all of the troop records. I'm glad I don't have to spend my time on the troop computer. I give her data for input and she gives me printouts on request. Sure it takes a bit more coordination and teamwork, but the team is stronger for it.

FatherJim states, "All you have to do is get an organized religious group or Native Americans together and have them work up a criteria ... I would imagine almost any religious group could make up their religious award program..."

That's a good idea but it isn't that simple. The BSA Religious Relationships Subcommittee, which administers the religious awards program and reviews the curriculum of any newly proposed award, has adopted a "rule of 25" which states that to be eligible for the creation of a religious awards program, a faith must be the chartering organization of at least 25 units nation wide.

The purpose of this rule is to facilitate administration of the program by establishing a minimum threshold of interest. I can certainly understand them not wanting to administer 100 programs with a single congregation each. In practice however, it has been used to prevent minority and non-mainstream faiths from establishing an awards program and thereby achieving formal BSA recognition.

I don't know whether any Native American churches have expressed interest in an awards program. However, you may recall that several years ago, a minority faith, the Covenant of the Goddess, had their proposed Hart and Crescent program denied on the basis of the rule of 25. This was interpreted by many as religious discrimination against minorities. Others were relieved that BSA had grounds to deny a religious awards program to pagans.

At this point I would like to remind everyone that pagans and other minority faiths are welcome in Scouting. "BSA does not define what constitutes belief in God or the practice of religion" (BSA Position Statement 6/91)

I rather suspect that some SEs are under big pressure to report good numbers and cooking the books is the easiest or only way to do so. It's very sad that they have lost the big picture.

"I wonder what are they afraid will happen."

Barry, I am afraid that the Hindu Scout or the Jewish Scout will eventually get tired of being treated like they didn't count and will quit Scouts.

No one is worried about a service "converting" anybody. It is a matter of respect. How would you feel if every Scout service you attended named Zeus as the Supreme God? You wouldn't change your beliefs, certainly, but it would get tiresome. Wouldn't it be better to have a service which could be meaningful to everyone?

Barry, for the record:

2001 polling data show that "... 81% of American adults identify themselves with a specific religion... 52% of Americans identified themselves as Protestant; 24.5% are Roman Catholic; 1.3% are Jewish; 0.5% are Muslim... 14.1% do not follow any organized religion..."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm

hey Semper,

Thanks for that link!!! I've been wanting some Rockwell images also and these are terrific.

This forum is great!

Semper, I really don't think so. We just reflect the community. I suspect that most troops are similar. We're probably about 40% Protestant and 40% Catholic with the rest a variety of minority faiths.

As you can tell, being a minority, I am sensitive to folks in the majority blithely assuming that BSA somehow prefers one religion over another.

(And I know you are just joshing me about the Oath.)

I would recommend calling your District Executive at your local scout office. He/she will be able to help one way or another. There are surely some other packs in your council with uniform closets. Also, your local scout troops are filled with young men who don't wear their old blue uniforms anymore!

Lisa, glad you decided to take the plunge! You'll not regret it, I am sure! There's a lot of fun in store for your pack!

Yes, you can be both CM and a DL simultaneously. It's not the preferred option, but if there aren't enough volunteer parents around, it's better than having a den - or the pack - without a leader. I did it for 3 or 4 months and was then able to convince my Asst DL to take over. He did a super job.

I'll say it again, until I am blue in the face:

BSA doe NOT define "God" as the Judeo-Christian-Islamic deity known respectively as Yahweh, Jehovah, and Allah.

"BSA does not define what constitutes belief in God or the practice of religion" (BSA Position Statement, 6/91).

My favorite call is "Tattoo". Don't hear that one too often anymore. I guess it's gone the way of "Boots and Saddles"...

I would guess that about half of our scouts are members of our CO's church. Everyone is encouraged to attend that week's service in uniform, either at the CO or at their own church or temple. We also make a formal report to the CO congregation - how many scouts, how many new Eagles, etc.

Several years ago during the week of Scout Sunday we had a troop program on what it means to be "Reverent", guided by the material at http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/faiths/index.htm. It was well recieved and we might do that again this year.

pack265, just DO IT! Cubmaster is the best job in scouting! You will rise to the task, I am sure!

The CM is most of all a Master of Ceremonies for the pack meetings. Pack meetings that are FUN and lively and FUN and interesting and FUN will keep the cubs comin' back for more. (Did I mention fun?).