Trevorum

Perhaps you misunderstand me. While I suspect that most atheists have, after much thought, consciously the rejected "archaic mythology" and "simplistic explanations" that characterize many religions, I also believe that most atheists have not embarked on any significant journey of spiritual exploration. There is much in the cosmos to be in awe of, much that will be eternally beyond human understanding. The labels you choose to apply are up to you; "God" is one that most people will relate to.

I've heard of the initiative and am in favor of anything that introduces scouting to a wider audience. Hispanics are seriously under-represented in BSA and National is trying to figure out how to fix the demographics. Soccer may be a good angle. One problem is that Scouting has not been a part of the culture of many recent immigrants - just a familiarity thing. Another may be that many recent Hispanic immigrants are wary of para-military uniforms and official organizations.

The 2005 requirements book is now available, meaning it had to be printed and distributed long ago. Does National give any sort of "heads up" that changes are coming, effective on January 1st of the coming year?

Skipper's Hornaday course (and MB fairs, etc.) could have used an advance warning to adjust their long-planned program.

Of course atheism is not a religion - it's a belief but is not a religion. (Religions are integrated systems composed of: theology; ritual; and ethical rules.)

In my experience, most self-proclaimed atheists are intellectually lazy. They say what they don't believe in, but don't make the effort to discover what they do believe in.

Spritual self-discovery is open to everyone.

BSA does NOT define God as the Judeo-Christian-Islamic deity of the Old Testament. "The BSA does not interpret God or religion. That is the role of the Scout's family and religious leaders." (BSA Position Statement 6/24/91)

So, Roosters' fellow who defines God "as a tree" is perfectly welcome in BSA, along with those who think God is the Milky Way and even those who think God is undefinable.

Hunt, BSA is NOT a "religious organization". It has membership requirements, yes, and emphasizes reverence, but religion is NOT part of the program.

Semper, you are right (as always!) insofar as your answer goes. However, I would further venture that until fairly recently, there was no religious "litmus" test for membership and that atheists were Scouts and Scouters all along, they just weren't confronted and required to sign an affidavit. Now however, as the country increasingly polarizes itself along so many different dimensions, the issue of Godlessness has become writ into BSA policy.

mhager, it pains me deeply knowing that our beloved BSA so ill treats Eagle Scouts.

IMO, BSA's policy is rooted in a traditional religious intolerance that equated "godlessness" with "immorality". This is patently untrue, as may be demonstrated by your own case. Nonetheless, it is policy and BSA cannot stand to lose face (or, more importantly, membership) by recanting.

ROFL!

That story is precisely the reason that one of the self-proclaimed "geeks" in our troop decided to earn the Atomic Energy MB!

He hasn't finished though and I'd like to be certain that he'll be able to do so.

OGE, your story resonates with me because we had a similar situation. So I asked my "Sam Jr." if he would be the new Chaplains Aide. It worked!

Also, our new Troop Chaplain is Woodbadge trained and is wonderfully inclusive.

BP, this is what I meant in the very first post on this thread: to some evangelicals, being tolerant is actually wrong. They are supposed to take every opportunity to "witness" to others, even if this is unwanted or offensive. I see this as a fundamental (pun!) conflict between BSA policies (as we have here reviewed) and their faith. However, I think we should allow them the freedom to be obnoxious to others because they are honestly trying to do good. It's just so darn annoying.

Skipper, that is news to me also! We have several fellows who will be attending Hornaday and they are expecting to work on Atomic Energy.

What about fellows who already have a partial - will they be allowed to complete? This is probably a common situation as National regularly changes/discontinues merit badges.

The Ad Altare Dei rquires a SM conference. Maybe others, as well.

I, too, thought the Woodbadge session on preparing a "Scout's Own" service was excellent. I especially appreciated the important distinction that was made between "non-sectarian" and "non-denominational". Many Scouters had not thought about this before.

I should have added that during regular SM conferences we will discuss how the he fulfills his Duty to God and how he shows Reverence in his daily life. I strongly feel there is no right or wrong answer to these obligations, as long as the candidate can express to me what he means by reference and what is his duty. These vary widely between faiths and it would be invasive for me to tell him that, say, Duty to God means attending church services, or praying, or anything else. That's for his family.

Packsaddle and I have similar approaches. Religious instruction is a matter for the family.

The one time when I will discuss specifics of relgious belief with a scout is during a SM conference for his religious award. Often, these will direct the SM to discuss with the candidate his personal growth regarding particular matters of faith. These conferences are enjoyable and enlightening for me as I always get to learn something new about other faiths.

Did he really say that? I guess I'm not surprised!

Our troop has several Pagans. They are good scouts.

SA, excellent analysis. I had never read the DRP in that light before, but I agree with you.

FWIW, I've never heard of a Scouter actually trying to prosletize. The Scouters I know are all considerate of the beliefs of others. I once pointed out to a camporee chaplain that his service was exclusionary to Jews and others. He sincerely apologized and thanked me for pointing out his blind spot.

Semper,

I agree, as long as you also let him share with you that "There is no God but Allah and Mohammed is His prophet."

If the two of you don't agree, then religious tolerance and mutual respect would suggest that you both to move on to other topics.

What criteria do your troops set for SPL elections?

We set Star and 14 years old. Next time, I'd also like to specify my expectations up front: commit to lead at least 4 of the 6 campouts, 5 PLCs, and 20 of the 25 troop meetings.

Has this type of thing worked (or not) for other troops?

"I know for a fact that you are wrong, but I will defend to the death your right to tell me I am wrong".

Eamonn, an interesting perspective, though I don't fully understand why you salute the American flag. I feel that a salute is not only a sign of respect but also a sign of alliegance; I would not want to salute the Zambian flag any more than I would the Union Jack. Although I must admit, I have never been in either situation and would most likely follow the correct protocol, whatever it turned out to be.

Hunt, again I agree with you. But, I think it was written this way on purpose. Clever wordsmiths can say something that seems to be crystal clear - and simultaneously to two opposing sides so that they can seem to agree with everyone and not be pinned down. (This is what politicians do) BSA's black box of policy makers are expert at this.

Hunt, in general I agree with you. Lively debate is healthy and enjoyable. However, I hope you would also agree that an adult should never use his/her position of authority to persuade youth "that their beliefs are wrong". That is a morally repugnant abuse of power and I would liken such to brainwashing.

Scout Sunday/Sabbath is coming up which is a good time to help boys understand the value of diversity, and tolerance for diversity. In our troop, we have scouts who are Catholic, Hindu, LDS, Buddhist, Wiccan, UU, as well as four or five denominations of Protestant.

A good definition: "Religious tolerance is not religious indifference. It is valuing the right of someone to hold beliefs which you know to be wrong"

troop251scout, good for you! I can tell you are a strong SPL.