theysawyoucomin'

Lisa You never inferred about "My loins are taking over". I think many people have the view that "Well there going to do it anyway........ That is wrong!!! I also don't know why folks think that a trip to the Doctor for Suzy would make it all better and Johnny could still get his Eagle. That is the furthest thing from my mind. My point was that some folks regard that Eagle badge with such high value that I think that maybe it would give some cause to think of the penalty. I would not want the SM to have to ask. In my community everyone would know. Funny thing, is before about 1969 such an occurance would have been enough to say no to a boy that acted in this fashion and got the results I am speaking about. And I would wager there would have been no place to appeal it to. His Dad would have said "It serves you right " and the matter would have stopped at the Troop. Scoutldr you don't say if that was the reason the Eagle was denied or if there were other grounds. A change of venue can sometime be beneficial when being judged. Which is what every SM conference and BOR does everytime they convene. Now we have come a long way since then but the results are the same for the child. Of course the gov't has all kinds of parachutes to help you. And the numbers for such behavior are thru the roof and climbing. They are exponentially higher than in the days when "shame" was still a word in the American vernacular. So we have one for doing something or at least daring to bring it up, ev who is pondering it and many against. BP once said something like: We should not forbid a boy to do something because it instantly become adventurous, rather we should show the boy why such behavior isn't beneficial. (Or something along those lines) Thank you all for a lively and spirited discussion.

Scoutldr thank you for speaking up about the EBOR. I thought John in KC was bats. It sure would tick off some folks. But it would also show a position on a subject. This behavior will not be tolerated. IT'S SIMPLY NOT GOOD FOR ANYBODY INVOLVED, SHOULD I GAMBLE HERE AND LOSE! Just because movie stars and Tom Brady (QB NE PATS) think that fatherhood ends at conception doesn't mean we all have to drive down that road. And no I'm not advocating abortion. Banning Scouters? Now there's another topic! Lisabob wrote: Such a position reminds me of advice that was once commonly given to boys (but not usually to girls): "Do what you want but don't get caught." Further, such a position would encourage boys NOT TO take responsibility for their actions if such actions resulted in a girl becoming pregnant. That is not ethical. Lisa, your post is insulting in that you could possibly think my position "would encourage boys NOT TO take responsibility for their actions if such actions resulted in a girl becoming pregnant. That is not ethical." Further: Such a position reminds me of advice that was once commonly given to boys (but not usually to girls): "Do what you want but don't get caught." I can see your preconceived notions can lead you to think that about other people, yet you have only disclosed what you may feel yourself. "Do what you want but don't get caught." I missed where I wrote that. I was addressing a national disgrace. A national situation that leads to poverty, child abuse, substance abuse by children as they grow up. A financial burden on taxpayers and national health care,a drain on public education. All because of the lack of self control. "I'm out of control because my loins have taken over" Makes us sound like a bunch of primates! May God send a lightning bolt though my heart if I ever say to my son, "Do what you want but don't get caught." The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law. Trustworthy-I am with another Man's daughter. Would I want a young man to behave this way with my daughter. Reverent- I don't think I need explain. Kind- I am gambling with my future, her future and another possible human being's future. Would it be kind to have something bad happen here? helpful- I am helping only myself. Clean---- mind and body...you decide Loyal- Am I being loyal to my parents who love me, I may shackle them with a financial responsibility as I am not able to provide all a child needs on my McDonalds salary. Delivery is in excess of $5k and that's just the first few hours of life. And Lisa bob thought I meant "giddy up and go!"

Get that router fired up Gonzo and carve away!

What would you think of a national directive that said: Any boy fathering a child outside of wedlock would be permanently ineligible for advancement. Most religions don't support such behavior. Common sense tells us that kids do best with a loving Mom and Dad in an emotionally, financially stable home. This would be a little more direct than pg 376 of the Scout handbook. I think it is a national problem in that life is tough enough these days, the child born into such circumstances is the "victim", not a problem to be labeled. It is the two idiots that created the situation who are to blame. Many times the rest of "the village" ends up paying to support the child. The child is not given the benefit of a loving nuclear family. Might give some Scouts cause to think about their actions. As the libs say about banning guns and other matters, "if it saves (helps) one life it would be worth it. Your thoughts please.

Mostly we let people walk all over us and come and go whenever the hades they please

I agree with Kudu. I agree with OGE on certification and many times I have spoke of the ideal once a month training for Scoutmasters for a year. I don't agree with the OGE thing about the knots. Napolean said a soldier would risk much for a small bit of cloth(or something like that). They can tell others if you fell off the turnip truck yesterday or if you have been around awhile. (I feel a thread spin coming) There should be a knot for Den Chiefs. A year of service, training. Should be like the AOL, forever. Says you knew what service to others was like even as a boy. There has to be integrity in the awarding of advancement. The run thru the car wash and out comes an eagle crap has to stop. Insist on mastery of skills. Make Backpacking required. Nothing, I say nothing can teach you more about the penalties of poor prior planning. This can extend to business, being the man of the family(aren't women always complaining there aren't any men to handle things-maturity) leadership in school, college , sports, heck even packing a picnic lunch. Read page one of the Scout Handbook...read it again. Are we delivering that?????????? How many people are playing sea lawyer and justifying lowering the bar to give a healthy "normal" kid a pass? Why keep bullies and malcontents who hamper us in delivering that promise? Why in the world does the Scoutcraft stop at First Class? Patrol leader should be required for Eagle. Untrainable Patrol leaders should be fired. We need more information on Add, ADHD, autism. We need more info on helping the handicapped Scout have a challenging meaningful experience. We need to have back up on requiring the Scouts to be civil, respectful, polite. We need to require that they mentor the younger scouts. Nothing teaches you about something more than having to teach it to others. The younger scouts need peer heroes. Boards of Review should be something that the boy remembers as tough and thorough. As a patrol leader he will insure "his" boys are ready. The Planet is baking, petro stocks are dwindling, most Americans live a life full of enjoyment but one which we must work hard to get what we need. Some think that 20 years from now life will be much harder. Are we helping boys by lowering the bar? Make a Boy Scout something that is like a seal of approval again. Does anybody that holds down a household think that life isn't demanding. Let's prepare the boys for what life is really like and help them in the process to be the kind of neighbor we would want to have living next door. PS I don't really believe the planet is baking.

Lisa wrote: Well now wait a moment, as SM don't you have the ability to decide whether or not this scout is demonstrating scout spirit? Who does determine this? Troop Committee? The absent lads parents? Please.

This is one of the fundamental problems with the program. Who did the Life Scout mentor whilst he was away? What leadership example did he show to the younger boys in the Troop during his absence? So now our Cowboy blows back into town for something HE wants. He will possible ask the yearlings and the 7th grade scouts for labor for his Eagle project. They barely even know him!!!!! WHY HASN'T HE MADE AN EFFORT TO ATTEND A CAR CAMPING CAMPOREE SEMI ANNUALLY? HAS HE SHOWN ANY SCOUT SPIRIT SITTING AROUND A FIRE WITH A YOUNGER SCOUT LEADING BY EXAMPLE, SHOWING THE WAY BY HIS ACTIONS? OTHER THINGS TOOK PRIORITY, BUT NOW HE NEEDS THIS FOR HIS COLLEGE APPLICATIONS NEXT YEAR. THE LEGAL ARGUMENT official requirements (active for at least 6 months as a Life Scout, no matter when those 6 months were) then you shouldn't hold him back based on this criterion. The BSA allows this but they shouldn't. This is why the Patrol method is so difficult. National allows people not to show up for the patrol to be led. But hey give it to him cause if you don't : The parents will whine to the DE and their congressman and all their other "lower the bar" friends. You'll help the kid by lowering the bar. younger kids can be led by adults instead of the boys. dluders- I'm not yelling at you. You get high marks for seeing the problem and asking for advice. The National Policy needs to be re-written. We would have a lot less Cowboys breezing into town to get the goods, right after pledging "to do more for Scouting that Scouting has done for me", never having made an impression- never having mentored in the outdoors, and our Hero rides off into the sunset, and he didn't even get a chance to thank us.

Thank you for your quick response Kudu. If carried out properly and the boy leader left alone to lead, I can imagine no better leadership developement course for a boy in the age group we serve. I have displayed the small unit leadership methods the Marine Corps uses, businessman Harvey McKay has called it a mini MBA (or words to that effect) most all those can be applied to leading a patrol. I can name several people that make more than $500000/year that should have been Patrol leaders in their youth. They would have a lot more on the ball right now as adults. I wish the GS program had Patrol Leaders. The gold award has some mangement in it and I see my daughter gain leadership skills and good old grit and determination. But nothing like a boy led Troop would have. Kudu wrote: People who object to the membership requirements of the BSA, and have an understanding of Scouting and access to adults with the appropriate outdoor skills, should consider establishing their own Scouting unit rather than wasting time on trying to change the BSA. Kudu I think some folks rather like tearing down an organization that has done so much good for so long. Some folks like beating America into the ground. It gets them alot closer to the non judgemental anarchy that they really want. The government pays the legal bills of the ACLU so they can fight for a costume cowboy wearing butt-less chaps to ride a float down Broadway, yet it takes a court battle to allow public school children to be allowed to write "Merry Christmas on a card for deployed Troops. The culture war is raging. They are winning.

Kudo wrote: I was referring to problems that a coed program would fix. OK, in a nutshell: 1) One "problem" that a coed program would fix is that American girls are short-changed because the GSUSA has few if any outdoor advancement requirements that are, you know, required. (CAPS ARE ONLY TO SHOW A STATEMENT AND ANSWER FORMAT) HOW CAN THE BOY SCOUT PROGRAM FIX THIS? YOU HAVE A VERY TRUE STATEMENT IN #2 THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN FIXED YESTERDAY. MY SENIOR IN HS DAUGHTER, GOLD AWARD CANDIDATE, GS SINCE KINDERGARTEN, TOOK IT UPON HERSELF, OF COURSE WITH PARENTS PAYING THE BILL TO CANOE THE ALLAGASH IN MAINE. MANY GS LEADERS, AND BS LEADERS DON'T WANT TO VENTURE OUT OF TOWN. ALOT OF GS LEADERS DON'T WANT ANYTHING TO DO WITH POOPING OUTSIDE. COMPARE THAT TO 50% OF FAMILIES HAVING OUTDOOR "PLUMBING" IN AMERICAN PRIOR TO WWII. BOTH PROGRAMS MUST SEEK THE OUTDOOR TYPE EVEN IF THEY HAVE TO HAVE THE "PRESS GANGS" OF OLD GO TO THE EMS STORE AND GET LIKELY CANDIDATES. 2) Likewise boys are short-changed because a BSA Scout may progress all the way to Eagle without ever having walked into the woods with a pack on his back. THIS IS A VERY GOOD REASON TO MAKE MANDATORY NIGHTS AFIELD FOR RANK ADVANCEMENT. I KNOW A COUPLE OF KIDS WHO HAVE OR WILL "CAMPOREE IT" ALL THE WAY TO EAGLE. I WOULD SAY LIFE TO EAGLE SHOULD REQUIRE A 50 MILE CANOE OR BACKPACK. NO HORSE FOR THAT REQUIREMENT. THE CAMPOREE CREDIT SHOULD STOP AT FIRST CLASS. BEYOND FIRST CLASS WHAT DOES A CAMPOREE REALLY HOLD FOR THE RUGGED, SELF RELIANT RODUCT WE WANT TO TURN OUT? OF COURSE HANDICAPPED KIDS MILEAGE WOULD VARY. THE CAR CAMPING, COOK OFF, KIDS SCREAMING WELL PAST TAPS CAMPOREE SHOULD BE A THING OF THE PAST. NOTHING BUILD COHESION FASTER THAN SHARED HARDSHIP 3) A Scouting program is best measured by its advancement requirements, not by what Scouts are allowed to do as an option when they happen to stumble upon a Troop with an inspired outdoor leader. HERE, HERE. WE NEED TO CHANGE THE REQUIREMENTS AND LIKEWISE THE LEADER TRAINING. 4) To solve these problems, a minority might consider the option of joining a Scouting program that: a) Uses Baden-Powell's Advancement program, based on more rigorous outdoor Advancement requirements than are currently practiced in the United States. DOES ANYBODY KNOW HOW WE LEFT THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE? b) Has identical requirements for both boys and girls. c) (My own preference is to have) male and female Troops within a Group that function independently enough from each other that adult supervision does not interfere with a truly adult-free Patrol System. d) Most importantly, does not involve convincing Americans such as yourself that there is a problem with their association that a coed program would fix. In other words, the problem with Scouting in the United States is not the program, the problem is the monopoly. I DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS KUDO CAN YOU EXPAND? uZ2BNOWL WONDERS? Why do we have so many responses to these topics, yet sometimes when people ask "how to's" they get very few responses? Why is it the job of either organization to help or fix the others problems?

Has he heard a loon call from a remote lake? Been scared on a COPE course and made it through while thinking under pressure? Backpacked another mile after thinking he just couldn't walk one more step? He can give first aid for a blister. Has he actually ever EARNED one? Paddled a canoe all day and enjoyed the fellowship of the group around a campfire? Has he portaged a canoe a mile and a quarter around the most beautiful rapids in the state? Caught a wild trout on a fly he tied? Has he broke a clay pigeon in search of the shotgunning merit badge? Been amazed at the amount of black powder smoke coming from a muzzleloader and reflected on how much smoke there was on a Rev War battlefield? Made a quinzee and slept overnight? Learned how to save a person from an overturned boat in the middle of a lake? Been on a pair of snowshoes for a couple days in a row, walking over three feet of snow? Will one of his Patrol members remember him the rest of his life for the leadership he provided on a rainsoaked camping trip? Stood on the side of a marsh and really listened to the call of the wood duck, splash of the muskrat working the early shift. Enjoyed the silence in the pre dawn only to have it broken by the racket of 20 Canada honkers moving to the cornfields. Most of all has he built lifelong friendships with his patrol members while sharing these experiences? Has he talked a kid into getting out of his sleeping bag, to get packed up and on the road when the kid can't walk another step? Is the lad Charles Kurault or Jeff Gordon? He is a Den Chief. His stock goes up tremendously in my opinion. He is doing everything he needs to. My assumption is that you are running a proper program. He is getting the meat and potatoes. None of the things I mentioned is required nor is the woggle tying. If you think I'm wrong fine let him go. He might be standing on the finish line wondering why he ran so fast, and wondering what he missed. McDonald's serves food and so does your Mom---- which place has the intangibles that are the spice of life, that we hold so dear? In a microwave society let him make memories from scratch.(This message has been edited by uz2bnowl)

Hey C-bolt, How did the talk with the Scoutmaster go? Harvey Mackay, whom I greatly admire, and who could teach us all a thing our two no matter what out profession must read scouter.com. Check out his latest weekly advice. If you are a senior C-bolt, I suggest his book "Dig you well before you're thisty" (best $16.00 I've ever spent) If I could I would give it to every senior in high School I would. Harvey Mackay by Harvey Mackay Author Biography Download Hi-Res Image Harvey Mackay is the founder, chairman of the board and chief executive officer of Mackay Envelope Corporation. He is an internationally sought after public speaker who was named one of the top five speakers in the world by Toastmasters International. His weekly column of inspirational career advice is distributed to newspapers by United Feature Syndicate. Mackay's fourth book of business advice, Dig Your Well Before You're Thirsty: The Only Networking Book You'll Ever Need (Currency/Doubleday) made The New York Times best seller list 12 days after its release. His Swim With the Sharks Without Being Eaten Alive was a New York Times No. 1 best seller for 54 weeks and was named the No. 1 business book in America in 1988. Mackay also wrote the best sellers Beware the Naked Man Who Offers You His Shirt and Sharkproof. His books have sold more than 7 million copies worldwide. An active civic leader, Mackay led the $6 million ticket buyout to keep the Minnesota Twins in Minnesota, was a catalyst for getting the Metrodome stadium built and was instrumental in bringing the Super Bowl to Minneapolis in 1992. He is a graduate of the University of Minnesota and the Stanford University Business School Advanced Management Program. Mackay's business insights have been featured in The Harvard Business Review, Inc., Reader's Digest and many other publications. Mackay is a member of numerous boards of directors including Robert Redford's Sundance Institute. Mackay and his wife have three children, five grandchildren, and reside near Minneapolis. Most Recent Column Attention: Leadership lessons from the Marines Follow the leader -- it's a game we learned as little kids. As I recall, we would follow whoever was in front of the line all over the neighborhood, through puddles and over fences. When it was finally your turn to be the leader, you tried to prove your worthiness, at least until everyone got tired of the game and found something else to do. Not much changed, except maybe the geography, as we grew up and went into business. Leadership became a major factor in our success: Could we convince our employees and associates that we had the right stuff to lead a company? Or would they get tired of the game and find other jobs? Some people are born leaders; they just know what needs to be done and how to motivate others to do it. However, if you don't fall in that category, I have good news for you: Leadership can be learned! A phenomenal lesson comes from our brave military, specifically the Marines, where good leadership can mean the difference between life and death. These 11 principles of leadership are found in the "Guidebook for Marines," published by the U.S. Marine Corps. The first sentence -- listed in bold -- is from the guide, and I've added my thoughts to each. Feel free to substitute employees for Marines to make it suit your situation. Study them, and hone your leadership skills. Know yourself and seek improvement. Be honest when you evaluate yourself. Seek the honest opinions of your friends or superiors to learn how to improve. Have a definite goal and a specific plan to achieve it. Be technically and tactically proficient. Know your job, and work to broaden your knowledge. Know your Marines and look out for their welfare. Know their problems, and make sure that they receive all appropriate help that they need. Encourage their individual development. Keep your Marines informed. Make sure that people know that they can always look to you for the truth. Provide information so that subordinates feel like part of the team and could carry on without your personal supervision if necessary. Set the example. How you conduct yourself says more than any instructions you may give. Set high personal standards and expect the same from your staff. Ensure the task is understood, supervised and accomplished. Employees must understand what is expected of them in order to complete a job or assignment. Follow through to make sure the job gets done. Train your Marines as a team. Employees should understand that the contribution that each one makes is critical to the entire effort. Make sound and timely decisions. Learn to think on your feet, to evaluate a situation and decide on a course of action in a reasonable amount of time. If you realize you have made a bad decision, correct it as quickly as possible. Develop a sense of responsibility among your subordinates. Delegate authority to give your subordinates the opportunity for professional development. Employ your command in accordance with its capabilities. Set goals that are achievable and make sure you are realistic about the tasks at hand. At the same time, don't underestimate your staff either. Seek responsibility and take responsibility for your actions. If you wish to lead, you must be willing to assume responsibility for your actions as well as those of the people who report to you. If your subordinates fail, determine if the fault lies with you. That set of lessons is a mini-MBA in management. Making it work demands that you are brutally honest with yourself about your abilities and strengths as well as your weaknesses. To help you evaluate yourself, here's the list of the 14 basic leadership traits identified by the Marines to help leaders earn the respect, confidence and cooperation of other Marines: justice, judgment, dependability, initiative, decisiveness, tact, integrity, enthusiasm, bearing, unselfishness, courage, knowledge, loyalty and endurance. Each of these traits is so important that the Marine Corps has developed an acronym to help remember them all: J.J. DID TIE BUCKLE (taken from the first letter of each trait.) Consider these lessons one more reason to be grateful for our brave men and women in uniform. Not only are they protecting our right to do business, they are setting a fine example of how to get the job done. Mackay's Moral: Good commanders look after their troops, and good troops look after their commanders. Harvey Mackay is author of the New York Times best-seller "Pushing the Envelope" (Ballantine Books). He can be reached through his Web site: www.mackay.com; or Mackay Envelope Corp., 2100 Elm St., Minneapolis, MN 55414. Copyright 2007, United Feature Syndicate, Inc. United Feature Syndicate Ya know C-bolt if you went to him with this and said, "I understand where you are going from Mr. Lejeune. But sometimes there is an absense of tact in the way you talk to us. Sometimes you lose your bearing when you yell at us. HOWEVER comma My fellow older Scouts and I see where we could do more to help our Troop. We are ready and make a COMMITMENT to take more of the lead in fixing some of the problems in our Troop. Please PARTNER with us, show us how to lead and then step back and let us run the show. Please let us know if you try this and how it works because I'd love to know the result and discuss this with the lads in our Troop.

Who hoo Whooooooooooo needs somebody to keep after them???? Make an appointment with yourself!!!! Next Thursday and Friday nights. The best word in the English language is FINISHED!!!! Just do It!!!!!! Job's isn't over 'till the paperwork is done. you can do it!!! Best wishes, Uz2bnowl

Do you really want "push-button Eagles"? Usually their parents are (fill in unscoutlike term here) I would try to interview the parents and the boys at the same time and then talk to the parents alone. Ask if they want more coddling or gradual steps to manhood. Any mother with a brain is going to want a strong self reliant young man. Ask the mom if she wants to curse her future daughter in law with a husband that can't think for himself. Ask the boy if he would like to be in a group that is led by the boys. In Cubs I had a Dad that admitted he never scrambled and cooked an egg in his life. This guy has 4 kids!!!!!

C-bolt, This thread has evolved from the original post. I think the thing you must do is get the senior Scouts together and confront the adult leadership. Maybe they will listen maybe not. If you present it in a gentlemanly fashion I would think they have to listen to you. Also know that they are probably tying to help you do your best. Perfect Leadership has been described as, "When all is said and done, the task accomplished, the people led by the perfect leader will say, "we did this ourselves" It doesn't seem you have this. For one more meeting before talking to the adults look at what goes on.----Are you pleased? what is good? what corrections would you make? Maybe the adults are trying to correct those problems. The Scouts is not a mini Marine Corps. Not even close. However comma some, nay many of the small unit leadership skills and techniques do have a place. 1.know yourself and seek self-improvement. 2.be technically and tactically proficient. 3.develop a sense of responsibility among your subordinates. 4.make sound and timely decisions. 5.set the example. 6.know your _____________ and look out for their welfare. 7.keep your _____________ informed. 8.seek responsibility and take responsibility for your actions. 9.ensure assigned tasks are understood, supervised, and accomplished. 10.train your ___________ as a team. 11.employ your command in accordance with its capabilities. Fill in the word Scouts instead of Marines and suddenly his culture is not all that different from yours. To give you the mindset of the Marine SM I give you the NCO creed. Maybe this will give you an idea of his possible view. I am the backbone of the United States Marine Corps, I am a Marine Non-Commissioned Officer. I serve as part of the vital link between my commander (and all officers) and enlisted Marines. I will never forget who I am or what I represent. I will challenge myself to the limit and be ever attentive to duty. I am now, more than ever, committed to excellence in all that I do, so that I can set the proper example for other Marines. I will demand of myself all the energy, knowledge and skills I possess, so that I can instill confidence in those I teach. I will constantly strive to perfect my own skills and to become a good leader. Above all I will be truthful in all I say or do. My integrity shall be impeccable as my appearance. I will be honest with myself, with those under my charge and with my superiors. I pledge to do my best to incorporate all the leadership traits into my character. For such is the heritage I have received from that long, illustrious line of professionals who have worn the bloodstripe so proudly before me. I must give the very best I have for my Marines, my Corps and my Country for though today I instruct and supervise in peace, tomorrow, I may lead in war. The first day you enter the Marine Corps you hear the term "attention to detail". This is a foreign term to most American youth. Yet "attention to detail" is what makes you wear you uniform properly with pride. It causes you(after 15 hours of work) to properly tighten one of the million screws on a Marine vertical takeoff Harrier jet, that allows the pilot to return to his wife and young child, allows him to deliver bombs on bad guys so a bunch of 19 year old grunts can return to their families. That same attention to detail allows a heart surgeon to properly install a stint in some little girl's grandfathers heart so he can push her on the swing again. Only you know if the problem is them or you, or shared. Good luck and best wishes, telling somebody they are wrong takes courage. Do your best to make the unit the best in the movement.

Well now, we are having a discussion..... Firstly when it comes to football, Tom Landry is the greatest man who ever graced the Gridiron. I don't come from Texas either. Mr. Landry had bearing. From what you have said here, it is time for you to "cowboy up" and get the leadership back in the hands of the boys. Work with you PLC and your senior Scouts and decide if you all wish to lead the Troop. You conduct the meeting. You conduct the activities. You plan the campouts. You hold the uniform inspection. Look at the title of the thread. YOU are a leader in your Troop. How are YOU? Nobody should be yelling at you unless you are doing something unsafe and are about to get hurt. Are they really yelling or is that your perception? Feedback is a gift. Give the adults some and become a boy led unit. Get together and tell the SM what you want. Once you commit to this you and the older Scouts"own it". You make corrections and set the standards, If you cannot commit to this they you just will be whining. If you and your cohorts don't run the unit somebody is going to have to. If as you said, for now the only thing you are doing is writing a thank you speech then it's no wonder you don't have a boy led unit. You have "a tall hat but no cows" Image but no substance. How did YOUR unit get like this?

Thank you Dug, I need to learn to proofread. I wish I had your 23 yr old SM when I was a boy.

Wow, I hear the title Marine being bandied about like it's an STD or something. As a former member of the Union Street Marble Club I don't bark orders like a cable reality show tyrant. I have a couple of pet peeves: I don't like when someone is speaking and two Scouts in the crowd are talking. Especially when the speaker is an SPL trying to do his job. I don't like when the boys punch each other. Especially when one is smaller. I don't like that the ASPL wears brightly colored basketball shorts in February(at 8 degrees) with his uniform shirt(Troop wears uniforms first Troop meeting of the month and then Troop T-shirts second meeting.) nearly all the boys proudly wear their FULL uniform the first meeting. I don't like it that the parents don't RSVP whilst I'm busting my tail planning a trip to Washington DC. I do like: Mature Scouts that mentor younger new Scouts. Checking on them, teaching them, reminding them of tips they gave. Mature Scouts that help new Scouts with requirements. Seeing boys advance and truly have mastered the skils they need. Seeing boys do safe and adventurous things that they would not be able to do with their family. Seeing an overweight Scout hang tough on a 6 mile mountain hike having never backpacked before. Seeing the boy leaders schedule a bowling party, negotiate the price and have the Troop attend a great time. Our committee is a varied lot. Some just do popcorn supervision, some just facilitate Christmas tree sale, some parents never go on trips because their son's are older (but their wise counsel is always good). One or two have no idea what the patrol method is but they own a van and trip other peoples sons to Gettysburg and Hershey Park. One is so patient his methods will be part of the Troop for a long time. One is an uncle to one of the Scouts who goes on every outing and purchased a pick up truck just to haul gear. He photographs every outing. Runs BOR. I wish I had more patience but I planned the Gettysburg/Hershey Trip, the backpacking trip, a freeze out. I attend Summer Camp all week long. I attended Wood Badge and all the other training to be a SM or ASM but I like being a comm member. I spent some money becoming an NRA rifle instructor so I can run a shooting event in a safe manner. I will do the same for shotgun and muzzleloader. I have repeatedly let the older boys know that "the inmates run the assylum" and "you plan it we'll do it" So my question to you lad is what kind of Adult leadership do you want? If one of the older boys came to me and said, "Mr.Gyrene we want to have a troop silly string shoot". As long as the G2SS does not prohibit it and everybody gets a can what the heck do I care if you want to do that. Tell the SPL and make it happen I'd rather mentor the shooters, boys rappeling, canoeing and backpacking. I'll leave you with a little story. There are "carny" type games all over Hershey Park(what a trashy shame). My son wanted to play this one game. I showed him how it was darned near impossible to win. He decide to save his money. Next a younger boy in the Troop rushed up and slammed his money down. My son tried for several minutes to explain to the younger boys that it was a raw deal. The younger Scout didn't listen and was soon parted with his money. Dejected, my son came back to me and said, "He just wouldn't listen Dad.I knew he would lose his money but he just wouldn't listen." I told him, "Now you see how tough it is to be a Dad sometimes". The leaders are trying to help you. They aren't perfect and neither are you. God isn't finished with any of us yet. Please understand their faults and strengths as they try to deal with yours. I know some adults are impossible, as some boys are. If you really can't stand it the BSA allows you to vote with your feet. Grab your buddies and go to another Troop. the Adults will get the message. This is a boy led activity, lead it. Be prepared for a post on this website from another boy in this Troop saying, "We do silly string in our Troop and I think it's a waste of time and money, how do I find a good Troop?" What activities have you planned? Want to change the Troop? Start with the young man in the mirror. You're an Eagle. You and your senior Life peers should be shaping the culture of that unit. Just as Marine NCO's are the backbone of the 'Corps. Do the inmates run your assylum? Is their a leadership vacuum that the adults have had to fill? Think about it. I didn't raise my "voice" one time here. Let us know.

Today I called John Howard with the NRA about the RSO cert. IF it comes....... Any NRA rifle instructor can take the RSO course by home study. Materials are like $20, recert is another $20 or so. Good news.

I'm with "y'all" The YMCA way doesn't make the boys plan. They are really not in charge of anything. What responsibilty do thay learn? They have a great program it's just different from Scouts. A 14 year old boy ought to be in charge of something. Heck they don't police themselves at that age they may as well be the quartermaster. Gives them an investment in the unit.

Scott thank you for explaining that. John I never meant to say the BSA and NRA were breaking their relationship. I'm only asking how the time is allotted. What did I type that gave you the idea they were ending their cooperation? I was a radio operator when I was in 10th Marines, not a part of a gun crew.

EK thank you for you kind words. I don't fear God either, he's great to me, my kids get fed every day and my toilet flushes what more does a man need? and I pray he blesses you also. I pray he finds a way to your heart. I hope she(Dee) was right there with me. There used to be somebody here that we wasted way too much of our collective breath on.

SHOOTING SPORTS (9) - Designed for shooting sports directors & rifle range officers of Cub Scout/Webelos Scout resident camps, Boy Scout/Varsity Scout resident camps & high adventure camps. This section includes archery & muzzle-loading rifle training, rifle & shotgun instructor training conducted & certified by a National Rifle Association instructor. Emphasis is on techniques for achieving the objectives of the Boy Scouts of America related to both Cub Scout/Webelos Scout resident camp & to Boy Scout/Varsity Scout resident camp. This is from the NE region Camp School, held I believe at Camp Squanto(loosely translated: leave those new neighbors alone, else they survive the first winter and drive us from the continent) So if the rumor is correct they have to add another 9 hours which we already figured is 48 hours not including archery. So 57 hours plus archery will make camp school over 7 days unless they are working 12 hour days. The only thing that makes NY any different is you have to be 12 to handle a firearm. No pistols without a permit, but that's moot because the G2SS prohibits pistols outside of the Venture program. That's until Mr. "F_Steamroller" Spitzer((ur new Gov.) calls for the melting of all lawfully owned guns and all the NYC legislators go right along with it. I don't know what you mean about 2 certs at the camp the boys go to. NRA Certified Instructors are made by NRA Training Counselors. The way I read the G2SS anything that is not an NRA instructor or NRA coach is just a helper and cannot be a MB counselor. I don't doubt you ran the range but if another certified person wasn't there you may have broken National's rules. Some boys leave camp with a partial because they don't achieve the required group size. That Scout would have to wait a whole year to get the MB without other MB counselors(not only at camp). I thought Powderhorn Training might be good. That's one reason not to got to Powderhorn, they don't certify you to shoot or instruct rappeling. It's just a sample. If you aren't going to teach what you've learned because the G2SS prohibits you what good is it?

SHOOTING SPORTS (9) - Designed for shooting sports directors & rifle range officers of Cub Scout/Webelos Scout resident camps, Boy Scout/Varsity Scout resident camps & high adventure camps. This section includes archery & muzzle-loading rifle training, rifle & shotgun instructor training conducted & certified by a National Rifle Association instructor. Emphasis is on techniques for achieving the objectives of the Boy Scouts of America related to both Cub Scout/Webelos Scout resident camp & to Boy Scout/Varsity Scout resident camp. This is from the NE region Camp School, held I believe at Camp Squanto(loosely translated: leave those new neighbors alone, else they survive the first winter and drive us from the continent) So if the rumor is correct they have to add another 9 hours which we already figured is 48 hours not including archery. So 57 hours plus archery will make camp school over 7 days unless they are working 12 hour days. The only thing that makes NY any different is you have to be 12 to handle a firearm. No pistols without a permit, but that's moot because the G2SS prohibits pistols outside of the Venture program. That's until Mr. "F_Steamroller" Spitzer((ur new Gov.) calls for the melting of all lawfully owned guns and all the NYC legislators go right along with it. I don't know what you mean about 2 certs at the camp the boys go to. NRA Certified Instructors are made by NRA Training Counselors. The way I read the G2SS anything that is not an NRA instructor or NRA coach is just a helper and cannot be a MB counselor. I don't doubt you ran the range but if another certified person wasn't there you may have broken National's rules. Some boys leave camp with a partial because they don't achieve the required group size. That Scout would have to wait a whole year to get the MB without other MB counselors(not only at camp). I thought Powderhorn Training might be good. That's one reason not to got to Powderhorn, they don't certify you to shoot or instruct rappeling. It's just a sample. If you aren't going to teach what you've learned because the G2SS prohibits you what good is it?

John our posts crossed as I broke for dinner with it half written. all you red legs have something in common-hearing loss. In 1981 I was in the only TAB Btry the Corps had. about that time all the smaller '05s got replaced with M198 155's which are amphibious as a fish. That's why the real king of the battlefield is Naval Gunfire. Your forefather Henry Knox dragged some smaller guns through my town on the way to Boston. Thank you for your service. And happy St. Barbara's Day.