T2Eagle

I have some friends and relatives there, I haven't had a chance to see what their take on all this is.  Cruising the Council website there is a blog from the SE with some mare details http://www.cvcboyscouts.org/blog

Most COs I've known and heard of don't want that.  It's going to be a lot of work for the CO Treasurer.

First piece of advice is sit down with the Treasurer and make sure you understand what rules they have, and whether they really want everything passing through their hands.  For instance, you're heading to a state park this weekend.  You might collect money at the scout meeting Wednesday, you might still be collecting money Friday (you'll wish this wasn't so but if wishes were fishes...).  How does the Treasurer want to handle this.  Even if you collect money no later than the meeting how do you handle it.

You also want to make sure you're clear on what documentation they want for reimbursements and payments.

And even with their Treasurer handling things you're probably going to have to track things within the troop -- who's paid, how much, etc.

Frankly, I'd encouragethe Treasurer and COR to talk to other organizatons and your District folks so they understand just how different this is from the norm. getting payments made., and how longit takes

Krampus,

Can you give an example how that works?  

Let's say you're selling candy bars.  Scout A is very good and/or lucky and/or has a parent who can take them to work to sell them. Scout B isn't a good salesperson, doesn't get lucky, and has a parent who is not allowed to sell at work.  Does scout A have to stop after he sells his quota?  Does Scout B have to buy any candy bars he doesn't manage to sell?

Here's the first sentence in the Scouting article: "Despite what you might’ve heard, the Boy Scouts of America’s rules do allow for individual Scout accounts."

Stosh's way can work, if you do it his way there will be winners and losers, some scouts who fundraise a lot may be subsidizing others who do not.  That's not a bad outcome, but it will leave some people disgruntled until they get used to the idea.

If you don't want to move entirely away from ISA's it is critically important that everyone understands going in that although you can decide to designate portions of a fundraiser be used for the scout who provided the efforts to raise the funds it is not that scout's money, they are not entitled to it.  The money is actually raised for and belongs to the Chartered Org and they have the ultimate say in how it's spent.

One of the things you may want to look at is whether you want to try to find a group fundraising activity or activities as alternatives to the "go sell this" fundraisers.  When primarily individual effort is what results in the funds it is difficult for folks to want to not have that individual effort rewarded.  We have one big fundraiser a year, we sell Christmas wreaths at our church.  Everyone is expected to help unless they are out of town that weekend, the bulk of the funds go into the general kitty.  We provide some small extra incentive for scouts who work more than the minimum expected.  No one has a problem with this being a general funds fundraiser, and because it is just a once a year effort we have a high participation rate.

We support the selling of popcorn and allow each individual scout's effort to be designated to his ISA, but we don't push hard for this as a group effort. Scouts who enjoy selling tend to sell quite a bit, many scouts don't sell any at all.

Welcome,

My first suggestion to you is to 1) read the books, and 2) take all the training.  You can do both these things without any involvement from anyone else.  The handbooks at all levels have a lot of information and go a long way towards explaining the basic programs, too few adults take the time to sit down and read them.  The training that I'm referring to is all available online.  For Cubs there are three different positions: Den Leader, Cubmaster, Committee Member, and for each position there are three modules: Before the First Meeting, First 30  Days, Position Trained. 

I'd recommend both Den Leader and Cubmaster to really understand the program.

Good luck!

Most interesting was when an SPL who was trying to get the other guys to step up their game got together with one of the other older guys and laid out white table cloth, china, linen napkins and silverware.  He made a Thai chicken, coconut sauce dish.  It worked, the other patrols started putting more effort into their meals.

Maybe the best scout prepared meal I've had was a cedar planked salmon, the equivalent of some of the best and most expensive entrees I've ever been served in a restaurant.

One of my best scouts is an absolutely terrible cook, such that outside of completing his requirements his patrol doesn't let him anywhere near the stove.  We, meaning both myself and his troopmates, have worked with him plenty of times, he just genuinely seems to have no aptitude for it.

I earned a living as a cook for awhile, and I know it's considered heresy around here, but I don't care much for Dutch oven cooking.  Unless you're braising inexpensive less tender cuts of meat, almost anything that can be cooked in a Dutch oven can be cooked even easier using conventional pans and methods.

Several posters have talked about Council having records, losing records, wrong dates etc.  Just to clarify, "Council" is no longer the keeper of the records.  I believe this is universal although I could be wrong.  The BSA has a national database, Internet Advancement, that is where all ranks, merit badges, and special awards are entered and the records maintained.  If you ask your council for a report of either a particular scout or an entire troop's advancement this is the database they will pull from.  Someone, or several someones, from your troop should also have access to this system.  If you want to know the details: ranks, merit badges, dates, etc., for a scout or unit it should take about as long to get the information as it took me to post this.  

For scouts who are closing in on Eagle we find it worthwhile to double check this before they get too close, just in case there have been any data entry errors.

Over the weekend I worked with two scouts finishing up their camping merit badge; came home, entered that into Internet Advancement so the Committee Member could pick up the badges for the COH this week.  

I will probably eventually sign their "blue cards" which are actually 8.5 x 11 sheets of white paper, but the most salient fact is that the scouts completed the requirements and earned the badge --- everything else is just bookkeeping.

 Then a local troop gives us this brand new large cabin-style tent. It's huge....

 

 

Beware SMs bearing gifts.

There previously was guidance in the G2SS that covered adults and youth sharing dormitory or barracks style cabins and other accommodations.  The gist of it was that you put up some type of sheet or curtain to provide privacy, especially for changing.  You never know with BSA when they rewrite things whether they intend to make drastic change, such as the idea that adults and kids can no longer share cabins, or whether it is just an oversight, or whether they want it to be deliberately vague.

Put all your Webelos in together, they'll have a blast but get no sleep.

Adults can make anything overly complicated.  It's great that the scout has his copies of the blue cards.  it will be nice if the Merit Badge counselors have their copies.  But all of that should be entirely unnecessary at this point.   Someone in the troop has, or should have, the responsibility to enter into BSA's Internet Advancement system the fact that the scout has earned these merit badges.  The scout and/or the SM (really the SM, since it looks like his mistake) should be able to just send an email to the Advancement Coordinator and have the facts recorded in the system.  End of story.  Anything more than that is just bureaucratic b.s.

People often confuse evidence of a fact with the fact itself.  A scout meets with a MB counselor and completes the requirements for the MB -- he has earned the MB.  Signed card, no signed card, the MB has been earned.  No one who knows of the fact that the scout has earned the badge, or believes the scout or anyone else with direct knowledge of that fact, should do anything other than make sure the scout is properly recognized.  Getting caught up in paperwork, or worrying about getting new cards signed, or any other bureaucratic nonsense is doing a disservice to the scouts we're supposed to be serving.

The first webinar from National was presented yesterday.  One of the changes for this Jamboree is "grocery store model" food provision.  I found a FAQ that said this was a model used at World Jamborees.  Does anyone have any experience with this, and can they give a brief descrition of how it has worked?

thanks,

I'm with David CO on this, and I'm often surprised at the outright scorn that some in this forum heap upon "parents" as if any of us aren't or weren't or didn't get involved or stay involved in scouting because we are in fact "parents".

Nothing that the OP relates gives any indication of where this parent wants the conversation to go, or if there's a problem what the problem is.

I am always willing to meet with a scout's parents.  I am always grateful for the opportunity that parents give me to pursue what I love --- helping the development of my scouts.  And I remind myself all the time that parents entrust me with that which is usually more precious to them than their own lives, their children.  We try to have some influence of the kids that parents entrust us with, but we need to remember with humility that we are partners, very junior partners, with the scout's actual parents.  

If we really want the program to work as it should and serve the scouts as it should than we need parents to understand the program, believe in it, and to the best of their and our ability reinforce it.  The better educated your parents are about how you believe the program should work for their scouts the better chance you have that it actually will work.

I know that I don't know everything: about the program, about scouts, and about my individual scouts, and I'm willing to at least to listen on the chance that I might learn something about any or all three.

I have been receiving the following error message all weekend when I've tried to get into the Internet Advancement system.

ORA-00936: missing expression 
The Load Roster process failed. You may try again but if the problem persists, please contact your council.

Has anyone else ever seen this message?  

Anyone else try to use the system this weekend successfully or unsuccessfully?

It says to contact my council, but they usually have no idea what's going on with BSA systems, why would they know what the error message is?

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss04.aspx

 

Alcohol

The following statement was approved by the National Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America:

It is the policy of the Boy Scouts of America that the use of alcoholic beverages and controlled substances is not permitted at encampments or activities on property owned and/or operated by the Boy Scouts of America, or at any activity involving participation of youth members.

When I read that statement I see it as assuming that scouts, scouters, and scouting have control over the event.  It does not say that scouts cannot participate or be present when alcohol is being served.  To read it as prohibiting scouts from being anywhere where alcohol is allowed would be almost absurd.  

The example the OP uses is certainly a common one, think of all the others where scouts would be expected to be and to participate but somehow the provision of beer by someone having nothing to do with scouting precludes them.  As someone mentioned, professional sports where they have scout nights or scouts presenting  the colors: if that sentence really meant scouts weren't allowed to participate don't you think someone with the authority to enforce the rule would have noticed by now?  Do you really think that it's the intent of the National Executive Board to prohibit any scout group from ever attending a professional sports event?  Fourth of July parade ends at the town Fourth of July picnic --- sorry, no scouts allowed.  Local movie theater sells beer, sorry Tigers no Go See IT to the movie theater.  Lots and lots of COs like the VFW, American Legion, Knights of Columbus, they have a bar --- sorry, scouts can't go in the building.  Blue Angels coming to town --- there's going to be a beer vendor at the air show --- no scouts allowed.

Read the policy, think of its logic, it is talking about what scouting is prohibited from doing: serving alcohol on any scout premises, at any scout encampment or at any function where scouts are the participants.  It is not prohibiting scouts from being out in public just because somewhere someone at the event is doing something that has nothing to do with the scouts.

I have used them a fair amount --- they're primarily toys, not any kind of substitute for a kayak or canoe if you're thinking of really going anywhere.  A really high end one will have a way to strap a small dry bag on the bow, other than that you're not going to have anything with you except maybe water, and very few even have a place for a water bottle so you need to have a hydration pack.  

My brother said about them, "what do they do that something else doesn't already do better?"  The answer is nothing.  They are a good way to get in a paddle workout if you want a change up from a kayak or canoe.  By the same token they're a slightly different way to paddle anywhere just as a change from kayaks or canoes.

As I think about it, like Qwazse I have a niece who does yoga and gymnastics on a board in San Diego bay.  I really don't think you could do that in a kayak (OK maybe you could or she could, I can't even do that stuff on dry land), but clearly a flat board is superior to round bottom vessel for that. 

The caveat to all this is that my experience has been on lakes and bays; I have seen videos of people paddling into surf with them, but I've never had one in any kind of wave action, let alone the surf.

I think the best analogy would be that paddle boards are to kayaks as wind surfers are to day sailers. They're fun and if you have the cash for a hobby there are worse ways to spend it.

Scouting achieves its aims: character development, citizenship training, and personal fitness, through an outdoor program.. None of that is gender specific.  The outdoors is the outdoors, building a fire is building a fire, pitching a tent is pitching a tent.  There is nothing about outdoor skills that girls would learn any differently, any more slowly, or any more quickly, any better, or any worse than our boys currently do.

One of the things that I see scouting doing well in my troop is giving boys a space where some of the usual societal competitions are set aside.  Boys are free to more openly be themselves without the peer pressure to be "cool" and conform to a rigid set of behaviors that slots you into a social pecking order. So one thing that would concern me is can we, and how would we, maintain that safe space, that unstudied atmosphere, if girls join the program.

The answer lies in understanding why scouting is that safe place and deciding if whether with girls it would be maintained. I think that scouting is safe because of a certain amount of self selection along with a strong culture of being a place where you can be yourself.  Kids who not only want to be at the top of the social hierarchy but who also want to place pressure on other kids to conform to that hierarchy tend to not stay long in our program.  Kids who are happy being cool, but don't care if others are tend to do fine with us, and kids who aren't cool also tend to do fine.

The second part, strong culture, is where we would need to maintain our standards.  We have a culture because most boys come up through the Cub program and so are molded from an early age to behave a certain why while at scouts.  This gets reinforced when they crossover,as most do, into existing troops.  In my troop, and most of those I know, from the very beginning the older scouts, and the adults, and the scouts just a year or two into the program, enforce that culture of tolerance for the different.

So I think the key to adding girls to the program would be to go slowly, start them early, and to do the best we could to bring them into existing troops that already have a strong culture rather than try to rapidly expand with new troops full of new scouts and new leaders who don't yet have the strong cultural sense of what it means to be a scout.

Our nation, our society, today is co-ed in a way that was unimaginable in Baden Powell's time and light years more even than when most of us were in our formative years.  Our kids will live their lives in a world that has an ever shrinking separation by gender, in their schooling, in their workplace, and even in their families.  I heard an interesting talk from our Council President at summer camp this year.  He was talking about having female leaders at camp and pointed out that if we don't teach our scouts how to interact with women who are their peers, who are their superiors, and who are their subordinates, we will leave them with a deficit of knowledge as they encounter the larger world outside scouts.

I sort of agree with Eagledad that thinking of it as a way to just add numbers to the membership isn't a good way to view it.  There are things good and bad that could boost membership, and I don't think that should be the driving force behind this kind of change to the program.  I disagree that girls have a comparable scouting program and that this discussion should not be about our nation's young women.

Broadly, I think it has to be acknowledged that adding girls would cause changes and have both benefits and draw backs.  Which brings me to some threshold questions.  

We currently can only serve half of the population, is that acceptable to us?  I believe that scouting provides a real and unique benefit to the boys in it, why is it OK to not provide those benefits to girls?  I believe scouting makes not only the individuals in it stronger but our commonwealth writ large stronger, would providing its benefits to the other half of our population be an even better benefit to our commonwealth?  Finally, is there any component of our structure of Aims and Methods that we would think would not be as beneficial to the young women of our nation as it is to its young men? 

Yes, we had a scout have everything ready to go to build a bouldering wall at a school, everything signed off and ready, including their lawyer and insurance guys, dates set, hadn't actually purchased any supplies.  Someone at the school in charge of facilities either hadn't been consulted or had second thoughts -- we could never really get a straight story --- and convinced everyone to deep six the project.  Made for a scramble, but he identified another project and ended up working up until a few days before 18 to get it done.

It's their property and there's nothing really binding about the agreements they enter into.  It would be good grounds for getting an extension but it's pretty deflating.

I don't see a problem with promotional giveaways like a rocket or something similar when you register.  These types of promotions are tried and true marketing devices, any particular one may or may not be effective, but there's good research behind their efficacy as a marketing tool.  The real sales pitch is what happens after the scout registers, if the program is good and the kid is interested they'll stick around.  Frankly, if something can help get them through the door I have confidence I can take it from there.

As to the "free" neckers etc.  We provide a troop necker, epaulets, and handbook to our crossovers, but it's not really free, the dues you pay for the first six months pretty much cover the cost. 

Wikipedia seems to indicate that we are talking about non-US Citizens.  And it seems almost inconceivable that with the numbers we're talking about, roughly 15 million, that there are 7.5 million expat American Mormon missionaries living outside the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints_membership_statistics#South_America

can anyone explain why the LDS church never took advantage of that and created BSA units in their overseas stakes, thus providing them with the same youth program for those boys?

 

 

As a guess, a BSA program for Mormons who are not Americans just wouldn't make any sense.

The people who become members of the LDS in other countries convert to Mormonism not Americanism.

It would be the equivalent of having every Catholic troop in the US be members of Scouting Italy or all the Lutheran troops be part of Scouting Germany.  Although there is a world wide scouting movement of which we're a part, if you look at BSA there is a lot of it that is very culturally and nationally specific.  How would Citizenship in the Nation as a merit badge make sense if you were Brazilian?

In my area alternative seasonal jobs are actually not that easy to find.  The service and retail sectors hire adults who a generation or two back would have worked in factories, and if a student wants a job the employer wants a commitment that they'll work through the school year.  In addition, companies that used to hire summer interns now offer the internships only as unpaid work.  When I was a teen companies would hire kids for the summer in order to cover vacations --- those jobs are exceedingly rare.  There are a few truly seasonal employers like pools and ice cream stands, but they just don't add up to a lot in absolute numbers.

I suspect that many if not most of the kids working summer camp come from strong scouting families, and so the family is essentially subsidizing the staffer and the camp by allowing the staffer to accept a lower wage in return for the positive experience.  A very similar phenomenon is occurring with the unpaid summer internships I mentioned.  Families are accepting that their kids will work for nothing in the hope that the resume building aspect of the internship will pay off in the long run.

I think this is good news for scouting.  But from the outside it does look like the LDS has an unresolved issue with their ministry to youth.  With the caveat that I have a very limited understanding of the LDS religion, It would seem to be a very real problem that something that is a very large component of their youth ministry is available to only half their Church's youth members.  

I have no idea what the LDS will do about this, and I wouldn't presume to give them advice, but having, almost uniquely, evolved from a religion that was almost entirely existent in the United States on to a global religion, the reliance on a US only youth program does not seem to be a sustainable model.  

  Do not believe councils can add local charges on top of the National fees, though could be wrong.  

I've always been puzzled by this.  It would save a lot of nickel and diming along with at least some of the push to sell popcorn if the Councils could just charge some of what it actually costs to run the council.

So I just went poking around in the training section for my unit.  Found a couple of problems.  Saw a report that said 80% of my leaders weren't fully trained, which I was sure was wrong so I dug a little deeper.  Turns out that, for Committee members, only E-Learning Committee Challenge is counted by the system as qualifying, so if you took it in person and/or prior to there being an online course, you are listed, at least for the my.my.my.oh.my system as not being fully trained.

The other weird thing I found was that there is only room for nine courses in the reporting fields, you can look someone up using my.scouting.org Training Validation and find 6 or 7 pages of training course competed, but in the .......  interface the magic number is always nine.

The first problem only bothers me because it makes a tool that could be useful --- a quick snapshot of where you stand with training --- and makes it useless.  The second problem bothers me more because I'm concerned that the full listing of training may become hidden away and inaccessible.

Anyone have any thoughts or insights on this.