T2Eagle

SP, I could be wrong about this, but I think the reason this seems easy to you is that you're creating more work for your council registrar and you have been fortunate that there is a lag time between when you submit recharter and your council finalizes it.

You weren't really finished rechartering. If you complete your rechartering the council registrar should have to do no more than a quick review that all the "t"s are crossed and "i"s dotted i.e. everyone is the right age, adult YPT is up to date, you have all the required spread of necessary adult leaders, etc. Instead you have the DE, who really shouldn't have to spend any time on it, gathering your info and having to pass it on in usable form to the registrar, who may have to go in and do extra data entry cleaning up your now renewed members. Also, once a charter is really finalized by the council any one you try to renew will actually become a new registrant requiring new paper application, new round of signatures, and in the case of an adult new background check with all the attendant expense.

Your method seems easy in the same way that lunch seems free.

I agree with scoutgripper that the uniformly "leave it to beaver" households are a thing of the past, if they ever really existed, and since our goal is to present a good program that should be the test of whether something is a good idea.

It may seem shocking to some people, but there are usually several different good ways to accomplish a task.

"We go because we need drivers, adults to be able to remind the boys of a few rules now and again, and in case of a problem but by in large the scouts have their camp site, the adults have theirs, etc. However, I do know there are some in our troop who would be very opposed to it and we've had events cancelled because of the troop policy..."

So it sounds like the troop is running the way it should with the minimal adult involvement on a campout. If your daughter's presence doesn't change that I don't know why anyone would care too much. The idea that a trip might be cancelled because of the policy, I'm assuming that means because there wouldn't be enough drivers or adults, seems like cutting off the nose to spite the face.

If anybody tells you there is a BSA policy, insurance problem, etc., tell them to show it to you --- they can't.

I would say you could probably find some balance between "my son can only go if my daughter gets to go every time" and having some weekends where you're home with your daughter and your son is off with the troop.

Mostly I do what jblake does.

I do have a short conversation with the scout. We have a district person who is effectively the Advancement Chair for eagle scouts, I make sure the scout has cleared the project with both that person and the recipient community organization. I then have the scout explain to me verbally what the project is and roughly how he intends to get it done.

The final plan gets a bit more scrutiny, mostly by a committee person we have. I'll scan it before signing, if it really looks like an unintelligible mess I'll have him work on it.

It's the execution of the plan that really matters, not so much the paperwork. And I don't think anyone beyond the district guy really reads them, so if he's happy with the paper I'm happy.

There aren't any rules for number of scouts. If you're not backpacking, so weight isn't a concern, we generally take the manufacturer's spec and reduce it by one. So a four man tent sleeps three, a three man tent sleeps two. TAHAWK is right, the more scouts in a tent the later they'lll be up and the louder they'll be. Not to be pedantic, but I think he means exponential not geometric curve. Three scouts aren't just half again as loud as two, they will be twice as loud.

A few years ago on a Tenderfoot weekend, the weekend in spring when we have our crossovers out for their first camping trip, my Troop Guide, QM, and SPL thought it would be a good idea to put six brand new scouts in a tent together. About 1:30, when the aforementioned trio still had not been able to get them settled down, I'd had enough and dragged them out and read them the riot act. When I asked the older scouts whose bright idea it was to put them all in one tent there were a lot of sheepish looks. We have n't made that mistake since.

SR540,

If you read back through the story, someone actually called the police specifically because the kids were walking home alone, and this wasn't the first time. CPS had previously told the mom that it was illegal for the six year old to be in a park supervised only by a 10 year old.

It's a crazy story. When I saw it here one thought I did have is that maybe the powers that be that won't allow Patrol campouts without an adult really do have our best interests at heart because the rest of the adult world has gone mad.

They can as long as they can stand each other's snoring.

Traveling by caravan or convoy is specifically prohibited. It used to be in the G2SS, it's now found in the Tour Plan Pledge of Performance.

"15. If more than one vehicle is used to transport our group, we will establish rendezvous points at the start of each day and not attempt to have drivers closely follow the group vehicle in front of them..."

The rationale for not traveling in convoy/caravan is that when you attempt to do so you drive differently than you normally would and therefore differently than other drivers expect you to – both of these are the recipe for accidents to happen.. Some examples: five cars traveling together, a light turns yellow, a driver who would normally stop instead goes through the yellow/red rather than lose or hold up the convoy. Alternatively, several cars make the light but some don’t, the caravan pulls over, now a truck with trailer and three other cars are on the shoulder of the road, other cars have to decide why and then proceed around them.

Pick rally points to meet at. Let people who aren't driving keep in touch with cell phones. Trying to drive in a convoy is distracting from the important task of concentrating on your driving.

You and your son have a tough decision to make. The SM is clearly wrong, and so is the committee. You can find the rules that show this in the Guide to Advancement. You can probably push the issue and get the merit badge approved, but you are probably going to sour some relationships so think hard about it. How committed are you and your son to this troop? Is it the right fit for you? Are there other troops in the area that are an equal or better fit for you?

I am a big fan of the SM counseling the scout about what might be a good match for MBs and counselors. But the idea that it is up to a SM to determine that "no one younger than a third year scout should earn that MB" is a big red flag for me. That kind of broad generalization indicates someone who doesn't recognize that scouts can come in a lot of varieties and probably also someone who has a very narrow definition about what is the one right way to experience scouting. It is doubtful that this is his only quirk, and you are probably going to see a lot of my way is the only way issues.

If your committed to the troop, for whatever reason, and/or if you are OK with my way or the highway stick with the troop, if not do you and your son a favor, save some a lot of future aggravation, push the MB because your son earned it, and go find another troop now while he is still early in his scouting adventure.

Basically, they want to know if the camp operations are making money (or at least breaking even) for the council or if the property a drain on the council budget (spending more on maintenance, utilities, ect. than it brings in). A lot of councils are holding onto properties for emotional and sentimental reasons when they are killing them financially. NCAP makes the reason to continue or close a camp black-and-white --

This seems like they are evaluating the wrong thing. A council should be evaluated on how well it manages itself financially. Whether a camp does or does not break even is a component of that fiscal evaluation, but it is a subset of it, not an independent component. If a camp doesn't break even but the council is able to cover that with income from donations, endowments, profits from other properties etc. then the deficit spending on the camp is not a reason in and of itself to close it. Likewise, just because a camp is making money, if the council isn't otherwise able to sustain operations then maybe the camp needs to be sold in order to endow the rest of the program.

I will add that the really good news in the survey is that smoking is down from a peak of nearly 25% to 6.7%, and that's a steady decline not a fluctuation. For long term health outcomes that is tremendously good news since almost all smokers began smoking in high school and very few smokers begin past adolescence.

Jblake,

Out of curiosity I just looked at marijuana use in teenagers. Over the last 25 years, use of marijuana within the previous 12 months among high school seniors has fluctuated between roughly 35 and 40%. Those numbers are certainly going to be different among different demographic groups, and scouts are certainly going to be lower than the national level. But those numbers tell me that although I've never had to deal with a marijuana or alcohol issue in my troop that more likely means none of my scouts have been caught more than it means none of my scouts have done it. What do you think?

I think Packsaddle has some solid advice.

You can't change the decisions made already, if the suspension included stipulated conditions but no reporting mechanism then that's how it is today. You cannot change the past, even if you disagree with everything that was decided.

Something to keep in mind is that these decisions are about these kids. We sometimes get caught up worrying about whether a particular kid is really what an Eagle Scout should be, and because we want the kids who most deserve the award to be fully recognized for having really accomplished something we tend to think in terms of will this kid uphold the reputation. But it really doesn't work that way; lots of kids become Eagle scouts, some go on to great things, some go on to be terrible as representatives, but most fall somewhere in between and in the top half of that in-between at that. So don't think about whether these kids will or will not reflect well on the program down the road.

The task before you is to think only about these kids, today. You need to decide whether you believe they deserve to be Eagle scouts in light of all you know. If you don't think so, speak up, if other people think differently then they'll pick it up and they'll work within the system to allow them to demonstrate that they do. If that happens don't feel bad about it. There are plenty of good people who would decide differently than you, they're not wrong, just different. If you think these scouts should be allowed to continue then review their accomplishments, set them some tasks, and let them decide to complete or not complete their trail. Whatever happens, remember that these young men have probably been in scouting for more than a decade, we've had an effect on them, how much only time will tell.

Welcome to the forums, this probably one of the most fraught challenges you'll face.

First, decide where you stand and what you want to do regarding their membership in your unit and their progressing. There are plenty of scouters who would say "that's it, they're done" either meaning that they shouldn't be in the unit at all, or meaning they should not advance at all. If you feel that way speak up and say so now, it's not fair to them or to anyone else in the unit to not be Trustworthy about what your plans are. If you're going to do that then you need to get your CC and COR to either back you or override you, and then you need to let the Council and District know.

If you want the scouts to stay in your unit and advance, but you want, because of their transgressions, to set expectations for their behavior different from what you expect from others, then be honest and upfront about that also. And if that's what you want to do then you're going to need to find a way to do that within the guidelines we have for advancement. Look first at where they each are in terms of requirements completed. If you want them to show up at a specific number of meetings and outings in order to demonstrate their re-commitment to scouting then you're going to have to make that a requirement for either their PORs, their definition of Active, or their continuing membership in the troop. Again, if this is the path you want to take then get the CC, COR, and Council behind you.

As to the attitude of either the parents or scouts, it would be unrealistic to expect them to carry a penitent attitude for long, we humans just aren't built that way. You cannot know what's in someone's mind except through their behaviors. Determine what behaviors you believe will demonstrate their commitment to the Oath and Law and then hold them to it.

Again, I think the most important thing is to be very honest about what your plans are, everyone involved should know now what's going to happen. This isn't something you hold back on and then start fighting about just before an EBOR or 18th birthday.

In the Irish working class parish in which I grew up that would not have ended well. A lot of folks started celebrating Christmas Eve early and then went to midnight Mass with ruddy cheeks and Rudolph like red noses.

NJCS's remark about doing some fundraising but also relying on donations made me realize that none of us (probably) really fully pays his own way.

Scouting is and has always been the recipient of millions of dollars of freebies. People give us money, people give us land, people give us discounts on purchases, in kind donations, etc. If that hasn't made all of us entitled freeloaders then there's no reason to think that it will make these boys believe they should be.

I should add that the time when I was most concerned about a scout and this issue I made a point to attend the EBOR as an observer in case things went south. As it was he was asked an innocuous question and gave an innocuous answer.

As a SM I have counseled scouts who I know to have unconventional religious beliefs to be ready for some type of question about their beliefs.

My understanding is that as long as you are not an atheist or agnostic then you are within the BSA guidelines, and if a scout says "I am not an A or A, I can't really articulate exactly what I believe, but I am comfortable that I personally Do My Duty to God, and I'm not really comfortable being examined about my beliefs" that that should be enough for an EBOR. After all a scout doesn't have to be a member of a particular religion, and no matter what he believes it's not really for us to judge whether he is right or wrong about it.

A person could believe in God and answer the questions you thought of in a way that you would probably totally disagree with:

1) I believe there is a God but I believe he has left it to us to determine what is right and wrong

2) I don't think any of us know what happens when we die

3) I think that both matter and God have simply always existed.

I think questions about respecting other people's beliefs under Reverent are more to the point if you really want to examine how well a scout is living this part of the Law.

But be wary of them too, I once had a scout (not in my unit and not during a BOR) tell me that since everyone who didn't believe as he did was going to hell he thought that doing anything other then tell other people that they were wrong and condemned was a breach of his Duty.

As a practical matter I would suggest you ask for some help partnering with some suburban units to actually carry out your trips. Our unit has done this a couple times with some Scoutreach units, and we have or have easy access to more than enough equipment to bring an extra dozen and a half scouts along with us, and some older scouts that would enjoy the opportunity to pass along some scouting skills.

So these kids and their families were driven from their homes and homeland by war, bad governments, worse warlords, or some combination thereof. After spending time in a refugee camp they came to a country where they don't speak the language, don't look like everyone else, have an entirely different culture and history, and will at best work at the lowest jobs the economy provides.

I think life has pretty well convinced them that not only are they not entitled to freebies, but even those things they are entitled to, like homes, country, freedom, can in fact be taken away from them without reason or recourse. I don't think any assistance you provide them could ever overcome that lesson.

Go ahead and buy them food, take them camping, help them navigate their new homes and lives. You'll be more than paid back later in one way or another.

Good luck and God Bless.

First, you didn't do anything wrong. What you may have seen would have been a violation of BSA rules but it wasn't the kind of thing that was in and of itself so wrong or unsafe that you HAD to take action.

But yes you could have done better. My experience is that the no alcohol on scout outings is violated more at the Cub level than at the Boy Scout level. I suspect this as much out of ignorance as anything else. When I was a Cub leader I always explicitly told everyone ahead of time about the no alcohol rule in order to head things off at the pass.

In your case you could have stopped and just asked casually if what you thought you saw was indeed what it looked like. And if it was a quick word that assumed their ignorance, telling them about the BSA rules, would have been appropriate and probably not too badly received. I think the key to these interactions is to be a provider of information rather than an enforcer of rules. If you get an argument then that changes things, but usually just having said something is enough.

Woodbadge isn't for everyone. I have friends who I respect who loved it. I was very frustrated by it. I felt that the substance of it was OK, especially if you haven't been to a lot of leadership and training seminars, but there was, in my opinion, a lot of time wasted on fluff that was more related to joining a fraternal order -- silly songs, marching, legends about its origins, and some head games with "surprises" designed to keep you guessing about what came next.

Find someone who knows you who has gone and will be able to judge whether you as an individual will really enjoy it. I have told some people I think they'd be OK with it, and I've warned others that I think they'd go as crazy as I did.

This can take a lot of one on one coaching and leadership, and at this point it's probably beyond the capability of a PL or SPL to accomplish. Sit down with him before the camp out, probably at the meeting right before, and detail the specific tasks that you want him to accomplish. Get him to buy in and agree to them. Everyone believes, in theory, that they should do their share. Emphasize that his duties are his irrespective of what others are doing. An easy excuse is well so and so didn't do his thing, nip that before it starts. Talk to him again friday night when the trip starts, concentrate on the specific tasks again. This is a process, you're not going to get change right away, what you want is progress. Explain to his PL that he should refrain from giving him additional tasks, just concentrate on the ones he agreed to. If he's doing them praise him, if he's missing them pull him aside and remind him of your conversations. You're going to need to do this for several trips before he even begins to have ingrained in him that he needs to do this on his own, but you can achieve success.

I would add that if you think it would be helpful ask his parents to have the same talk with him right before the campout.

We have that so I think the answer is yes. Unit Commissioner is a District position so nothing poses a technical conflict during the chartering/rechartering process.

I didn't hear anything more. My scout had some other ideas he was considering and chose one of those.