T2Eagle

Have fun, come back and tell us what you heard that you didn't know before, or what you heard that was either different from what you had heard before or different from what you thought you knew.

The gentleman who handles our checking account can barely do email, we're a medium size troop and I don't think we would save much time taking credit cards.  We would never get near 100% so we would always be processing checks.

Not sure about troop accounts, but I haven't physically deposited a check in my own account in about a year.  Take a picture on the phone, press the right buttons, write deposited on the check and put it in the file.

I agree with Beav that advancement isn't the issue participation is.  With very few exceptions a Troop should be providing an opportunity for every scout to camp once a month.  There are a lot of ways to do this, most troops just do things that everyone in the troop can both handle and enjoy, Krampus' troop provides a good model of having varying levels of activity within the same outing.  Troops that support, truly support, patrols camping independently of the troop is another, but truly support means that the leaders, SM, ASMs, CM etc,. provide the necessary adult participation and troop resources for those trips not just a lip service of "sure, you can do that if you figure everything out for it."

Your son's role is to understand what his scout leaders tell him and he should try to understand the program as they see it.  You can have conversations with the adult leadership; see if what you have experienced is an anomaly or is this the pattern you can expect to continue.

The point of Boy Scouts is to achieve our aims through a camping program.  If you're not camping how can you be achieving those aims?  The BSA talks about first class/first year, and points to statistics that show that scouts who engage in advancement at that level stay with the program longer.  A year is ambitious but doable with our troop, but I have always thought that what underlies the statistics is that advancement is a natural outgrowth of camping, if you camp you will learn the skills needed to advance, and so it is the going camping, the getting out in the woods and having fun, that gets young men to engage in and stay with the program.   

If the troop your in isn't providing your son the opportunities he needs to do scouting then I strongly encourage him, with you, to check out other troops in the area that may be better able to provide him the opportunities the program should have to offer.

Have him be a College Reserve Scouter or whatever the term is and come on campouts and help out.  Manage the other adult scouters so they don't cause problems.  The scouts love guys like this, and that's what's important.

We almost always naturally form into two groups.  There are real differences in ability between scouts, it doesn't matter if the difference is from age or conditioning, and there are also just differences in desire.      

What is the compelling reason for staying as one group, "just because we're all one group" has never seemed to me to be a self evident reason.  Most of the time the point of the hike is the enjoyment of the journey not just the getting from one place to another, so why make one group miss that enjoyment.  Some guys will enjoy, and/or will naturally just moving faster, and some guys will be happier with the saunter and dawdle.  As long as they're getting where they're supposed to be, what's the problem, there is no ONE CORRECT PACE.  

I agree with Calico, the chances that a freshly built bird house will be used within the first month of being up are really low.  I have several bird houses in my yard built when my sons were, I think, working on Bears.  It was a couple years before they were inhabited by anything, maybe just in time for a Merit Badge.  Two of the houses now have wrens most summers, one came down in a storm, and one was occupied part time by a squirrel.

He  should talk to his counselor; I think he fulfilled the requirement.  Keep an eye on the house it could have occupants sooner or later. 

Yes - in my college backpacking class one of our assignments was to try to figure out ways to lighten the load.  One of the vegetarians in the class thought of cutting the corner off a bag of kidney beans and filling it with water to soak the beans.  She was thinking just like you.  It worked a treat as the Two Fat Ladies might say except it really worked a trick.  After 8 hours the beans had soaked up a lot of the water (they are dry beans - soaking in the water helps to rehydrate them).  The bag was bulging to near bursting and the beans were oozing out of the top - those that couldn't "escape" the bag were crushed by their neighboring beans - if you want mashed beans - this will work (unless the bag does actually burst - would hate to have to clean up that mess).

 

There is a solution though.  The problem is that the bag the beans come in is too small - so she tried again, this time transfering the beans in to a gallon ziploc - that actually did work well - plenty of room for the beans to expand in to.

Isn't there a physics problem with your initial example?  If you ad water to the beans in a bag, unless you don't seal the bag there's no way the beans expand any bigger than the container.  The beans can only expand to the extent that they absorb the volume of water added.  They don't, I don't think, form crystalline structures like ice, and certainly cannot do that if the bag is sealed.

This story has actually bothered me for a couple days and I just couldn't put my finger on why until now.

Yeah - our Troop doesn't allow Crocs - and I won't be caught dead being seen with anyone wearing Crocs - not because they're bad for hiking (and they are that) but because they are the ugliest dang things anyone can ever put on their feet - and that includes those 5-toed running things.

The one endorsement I will give Crocs is for medicinal purposes.  If you ever have Plantar Fasciitis, wear crocs every minute that you're home --- never take a step in bare feet, and they'll speed the healing process.  Sure they're ugly, but like that worn out shirt your spouse wants to throw out, they're perfect as long as you're not seen in public wearing them.

Rather than ban sandals our camp, and the troop, bar open toed & open heeled anything.  So what you posted and things like crocs (with a back strap) would be fine with us.  The ban on open toes isn't so much about dropping stuff on them it's that they snag and slip and lead to twisted ankles and face plants.  I wear Keenes most of the time, starting about a week ago when the snow melted up until it gets cold again.  At summer camp I'll wear them in the camp site or for short walks.  If I'm putting any miles at all on I put on boots for the extra all around support.

You can't imagine how many times I have heard parents protest their kid's suspension using the very same words spoken in the posts on this thread.  It doesn't work.  The kid still gets suspended.

 

Is this over-reach?  It's an interesting question.  I'm glad you brought it up.

 

If it is, I can tell you that the trend in schools is moving toward ever-increasing over-reach.  The most recent example that comes to mind is that of social media bullying.

 

My school has recently adopted a policy making it an offense, punishable by the school, for one student to harass or bully another student on social media.  It doesn't matter if it occurs in-school or out-of-school.

 

Pre-existing policies have also been expanded to include more and more activities.  Rules that were designed just for sports teams are now being applied across the board to include all extracurricular activities, including scouting.

 

This is because many people feel it is unfair, even discriminatory, to impose strict zero-tolerance policies on athletes and give a pass to other clubs and activities.

 

If schools are going to have scout units, then people will have to accept the fact that they will have to comply with the same rules, policies, practices, and standards that all other school activities must follow.

 

Otherwise, there is only one alternative.  The schools must drop scouting.  Is that what you want?

I'm curious David, is your scout organization made up entirely of students from your school?

The cyber bullying/social media issues I would put in the same category as physical assaults and similar wrong doing.

You mentioned earlier about your school/CO having a reputation to protect.  That's always been a curious concept to me; I've always been skeptical of the idea that institutions were deserving of that kind of deference.  My concern is always with the the people I encounter, and in any conflict I might see between the best interests of any person versus the best interests of any institution I'll pick the human every time. 

Interesting question, outside of the examples you gave I believe it would be inappropriate for me to second guess the decisions someone makes as a parent, and I would consider it hubristically presumptuous for someone to second guess mine.

David CO gives alcohol as an example.  In my, and most states, parents can allow a minor to consume alcohol in their presence.  My own sons have had an occasional champagne toast at a family wedding and a glass of beer or wine with dinner at our family reunions.  It would never dawn on me to think that was any business of anyone besides mine and my wife's.  I was part of a conversation once where this came up regarding the Jesuit school they attended and the priest/administrator there said they certainly wouldn't think anything of it.

Closer I think to the topic that was being discussed, I've told scouts and parents about the ban on laser tag and paintball.  If they get the same people that would have been a patrol together and go play laser tag as a non scout activity that's no business of mine.

Seriously?  If I tie it left over right, right over left or right over left, left over right, or the bunny comes out of the hole, runs around the tree and jumps back in the hold, everyone should know that that isn't a square knot!  It's a reef knot.  Until my boys figure out how to tie the square knot instead of the reef knot,  they'll never get beyond Scout rank in my troop. 

Luckily, since it's your PLs signing off on this rather than you, they have probably long since realized the wisdom of qwazse's view and just have seen no need to bring you into it.

Really depends on how it is taught in your area and how hands-on it is. 

 

My advice to any leader is to learn what your boys will learn. For the first year Boy Scouts that's all the stuff from Scout to First Class. Learn it well and be able to explain how and why those skills are used. Use the EDGE method whenever possible.

 

Have fun with it.

Krampus' advice is spot on.  I'll just add that my recommendation for how to "learn what your boys will learn"  is to, before the training, get a copy of the scout handbook, really familiarize with the Tenderfoot through First Class requirements, and then thoroughly read the associated pages for those requirements from the handbook.

Think of IOLS in terms of how you will help your scouts master these skills.

Yah, hmmm....

 

Seems to me if yeh have bigger fish to catch and fry then yeh should be doin' that, eh?   Not wastin' your time on bubble-ball bans.    Don't sweat the small stuff, mate.  I've never seen bubble-ball or orb stuff, but I hear it was great fun at OA, with no injuries.  So what's da problem?  We've been doin' wide field games in Scoutin' since da birth of the Movement.  As much as anything, that is scouting.  This is just wide field games in bubble wrap.   Yeh really are makin' your team look out of touch and foolish. 

 

Besides, if you're goin' to let the little ones go, then I reckon in a few years we won't have very many big fish in da program, eh?    Seems to me fun and frolic for the little ones is a fine thing.  

 

Beavah

I'm always a little jealous when I hear someone make a better argument than I can in favor of my own beliefs.  Thank you Beavah.

If you're really only doing this for the sake of tasking the boys with remembering something every week then why not choose something else to remember: a stick of gum, a pencil, maybe a marble.

If you want boys to be responsible then give them something meaningful to be responsible for, otherwise it's just busy work.

I've spent 7 years training my scouts that this is their process: their privilege and their responsibility.  The first time we took this away from the adults and gave it to the scouts was difficult, but they've gotten better with each year.  We do the planning on an early winter campout.  This year I asked them if they needed me, they said probably not, but we'll come get you if we do. A couple hours later they came to get me to tell me what we were doing for the year.

I guess I could try to take it back over, but I'm not sure they'd go along with it.

If I read the original question correctly there is somehow a vote by the committee after the SMC as to whether the scout even gets to have a BOR.  That is so wrong a process that I'm not sure whether it could even be fixed by a unit so clueless about how wrong the process is.

My suggestion is

1) think hard about another troop;

2) try to have a gown up conversation with the SM, Committee Chair, etc., just to see if they understand how far off they are;

3) If they're not willing to move back towards the program, get in touch with a DE and push the issue, then

4) think really hard about another troop.

My mouse is laser driven, it doesn't have the old roller ball.  Can I still use it?  PLEEEEZE!  Don't take my forum away, don't take my forum away, don't take my forum away.......

"What's a mouse?" says Mrs. T2E, who no longer owns any device that isn't a touch screen.

(She gets weirdly exasperated when I hand her my laptop to look at something and the screen won't respond no matter how often she swipes across it.)

ETA, I sometimes claim I'm using voice recognition software, but really I'm just arguing out loud with other idiots on the interwebs who can't actually hear me.

My experience is the same as Krampus, have had pros whose sons were in the unit and they took on leadership roles just like everyone else.  Their distinguishing feature was that when they were with  the Pack or Troop they didn't really want to be seen as a pro and avoided situations and conversations that would lead them to switch hats away from volunteer and back to pro.

Most units have volunteers that arise organically by having some existing relationship with the unit: former youth member, parent, member of CO.  If he wants to be involved with his church's unit that's great, if he just wants a unit I'd be more skeptical if I was in that unit.

So Richard B., as my old law professor used to chide us, "The clarity of your answer escapes me."

Are you saying you didn't actually have any actual data or information but decided to ban an activity that could be a fun way to help be physically fit, or you do have such information (my quick perusal of CPSC didn't hit on anything) but feel that we either wouldn't be able to understand it or just don't deign to share it with us because we're just not worth the trouble? 

Maybe there is an  unacceptable risk to this activity, and maybe there isn't.  
 

No one here is providing any data to demonstrate that it isn't risky, they're just making assertions.

The real problem is that National also isn't providing us any data.  There's this wonderful thing called the internet and hyperlinks.  Surely there's a white paper of some sort that shows what the data is and what they based their decision on, or maybe there isn't and the decision is based on the same emotional basis and unsupported assertions being laid out here for the notion that it's safe.

Richard B, you out there anywhere?  Can you give us some actual facts that could help us understand why this is being done.  When you don't trust people with data, they'll assume yours is no better than theirs, and they're as likely to go with their own gut despite your best wishes.  That's the unintended consequence of not trusting your own members.

Could you elaborate on the distinction between the two as it pertains to State governments?

 

But succinctly: State governments as well as municipal governments have duties; therefore they have rights. For example, a State has the duty to protect its citizens; therefore it has the right to do so as well.

Peregrinator, I believe you're misreading the Hohfeld Right-Duty Correlative with regards to states and their citizens.  The duty is imposed upon the state, the right is an entitlement of the citizen.  The state has a duty to protect its citizens, the citizens have a right to be protected by the state.  Rights and duties are about relationships between parties.  You do not have both a right and duty with respect to someone or something, you have either a right OR duty with respect to another party.

Our council gives "wolf claws" or something like that to youth who complete NYTLT.  Essentially something that looks kinda like WB beads.  These are doodads I don't think it's anything either official or in violation of anything. 

No need to go all the way to Philmont and cough up $500.00 when if you Google "Millennial's Boy Scouts of America" the BSA already has several pdf's and power point presentations with information on the millennial demographic and what they supposedly are into. 

 

According to their studies, these parents "want to be involved and want to volunteer".  I personally would love to know where to find these people because if you look around at our den meetings, the parents are not really involved and are off somewhere in the sanctuary or outside on their phones or pads.  I almost want to see if we can initiate in our pack something like what is happening at Chick Fil-A.  http://inside.chick-fil-a.com/all-cooped-up-how-one-chick-fil-a-operator-is-redefining-the-phrase/.  

 

Maybe if these parents can get the screen out of their face and actually see what all happens during meetings and camping they can see that help is needed.  We have the same 5 or 6 people doing almost everything.  Its ridiculous when we have a pack of over 40 boys.  I have a crazy work schedule( like have to be at work everyday at 3am) just like everyone else yet I am doing way more than my "one hour a week".   You are bringing your child for that one hour a week, why not actually get involved?  Then there will be no one to b*tch about how slowly the pinewood derby is going or that its taking so long for meals to come out when we are camping.   Or complaining about how much various activities cost for camping or other events.  They fail to do any of the fundraisers.  

 

These millennial's need a swift kick in the pants if you ask me.  I almost have to wonder if the disconnect with them is the whole "vote" issue and they think that scouting is outdated and that they think that scouting will not have an impact on their child's life and they won't learn anything useful. 

So I did Google as you suggested.  There was of course a fair amount of fluff, but there was also some good stuff.

One of the power points seemed to address the challenge you were having about getting folks to help out.

We know Millennials want to help –

èbut, they need to be asked

è-remember they are accustomed to being scheduled by their parents.

èExpect volunteering to be a collaborative effort

èThey want to be involved in the planning stages–

èAccustomed to structure –

èneed to know what is expected of them, when it is expected, and why it is expected

Don’t handle open-ended job assignments well - they don’t do as well if left alone to make it happen

This has been my experience, and not just with Millennials.  If you don't specifically ask for help at all, people assume you don't need it.  If you stand in the front of the room, or send out an email, asking for volunteers you'll get the usual suspects.

If you want people to help you, ask them personally to do a specific task.  Tell them exactly what you want and when you want it: "John, we need fifty balloons for the Pack meeting.  Could you please pick them up, bring them to the meeting, and then get three other people to help you blow them up so they're ready by 7."

"Mary, this word search is our gathering activity for the den meeting.  As people come in could you make sure each scout has a sheet and a crayon and sits at the table and works on it.  You could probably ask Maria to help you."

When I used to take my kids to baseball or hockey practice I didn't automatically assume I was going out on the ice or the field unless I was asked specifically to do so.

It is similar to what we try teaching the scouts.  When my PLs complain that nobody's doing any work I ask them where their duty roster is and who is actually assigned to the task they're moaning about.

Before you do anything else sit down and talk to the scouts.  Do they know you see them as not enthusiastic and helpful?  Do they know you believe they go on campouts because their parents want them to more than they want to?

Did you talk to either of them about these things during your last SM conference?

Adolescents are rarely so self aware that they will recognize their deficiencies on their own.

If you want them to improve, or think they need to improve, then tell them what that improvement would look like.  Give them concrete examples of when you've seen them being unhelpful and unenthusiastic and give them ways that they can specifically demonstrate that they have made the improvements you're looking for.