sst3rd

ScoutMom22,

I respect your son not wanting to leave his current troop because of his friends, etc..

But what do you think is going to be the troop environment for your son when you pull off this show at the committee meeting?

I'm just saying...............................................

sst3rd

ScoutMom22,

I too have been locked out for a couple of days. Here is my response as of two days ago.

As a long time Scoutmaster and given the situation as presented, I would congratulate the Scout on completing a difficult merit badge at such a young age. I would verify the qualifications of the merit badge counselor in case the other Scouts would like to contact him. What did the counselor give your Scout upon completion of the merit badge? Anything?

I would also encourage this Scout that getting a blue card in advance is the better way to go. Scoutmasters, believe it or not, are not required to be available for immediate communication. We have lives and responsibilities outside of Scouting. I don't mind the occasional phone call, but texts, tweets, e-mails, phone calls, facebook entries, etc., etc., is impossible to keep up with. I personally make sure our Scouts know the preferred communication method we all can use. Keeps it simple. Almost everything can wait until the weekly meeting.

Scoutmasters aren't the gatekeepers of the blue cards, and I would never turn down a request. I would ask for a few details and encourage their efforts. And yes, your Scoutmaster and Committee are breaking the rules by adding their requirements to the BSA advancement program. It's documented in the advancement guide (or whatever it's now called). I'd find another troop that follows the program. These folks are not going to change. We want your son to stay in Scouting. Take some friends with him.

Take care,

sst3rd

jamist649,

If the PLC is handling what they should be handling, you adults can only support their program in a limited way. Don't allow yourselves to be overloaded. Chill. The program has to be simplified as needed, to account for the limited parent support. Work with the PLC in planning a great weekly troop meeting program, that leads up to fun and exciting camping trips, and don't look back. As long as the Scouts pay for the camping trips the meeting before the event, nobody loses money. Then, if and when a scouts bails on a trip, it's his loss.

I'd love to have 20+ Scouts, but would still have to support a fairly simple program as I too have just a couple of committed leaders. Get the parents involved in at least transportation. After that, the troop's program will always be limited by the lack of parents willing to take on the basic roles of leaders and committee. Until more parents see the relationship between more adult leaders and a full scout program, you keep things simple. When the Scouts want more program, parents will start to see the light. Be patient.

sst3rd

christineka,

I'm still trying to figure out, "His 11 year old leader (LDS troop) lets him have his blue cards." My years of experience as a SM had me create files for each Scout where they could put all of their paperwork. I had too many Scouts lose advancement stuff through the years, and it was a lot of work to fix those problems. The files are available to all of the Scouts at all times. I handed out blue cards with my signature at summer camps as well as all other advancement opportunities. When I received incomplete merit badge cards for their files, I would always encourage the Scout to finish them soon. I hate incomplete merit badges. So, I guess some troops have an advancement committee member, and that's great, but as Scoutmaster, I encourage Scouts to check into merit badges all of the time, and hand out those signed blue cards.

It works for us.

sst3rd

And our lodge does not charge back dues. Pay just the annual dues when you get back involved. Paying back dues discourages inactive members once they make a decision to get back involved. Keep making those great all inclusive rules.

sprout18,

If those Scouts have earned their AOL, they can join a Scout Troop NOW! I'm guessing that these leaders are following some old traditions, like calling the shots, their way or the highway, etc..,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but if these AOL's have parents who know the Boy Scout program, they'd get them into a troop NOW. Anything else is doing a disservice to these Scouts (they've got to be bored). And they don't have to join the troop attached to their pack's charter organization. If that troop doesn't want them now, check out other troops. Don't wait, operators are standing by......so to speak. It's not that I don't care what your Cubmaster/Scoutmaster thinks, he's just not running the programs correctly.

sst3rd

Atom,

I'm sure you'll get more on this, but the bottom line is an ASPL isn't supposed to be in a patrol. The SPL, and if any ASPL, are on their own as far as the Troop organization. These positions are troop Staff positions. If this is corrected, you would no longer have this conflict in your patrol. Talk with your Scoutmaster. Have him review his "troop organizational chart" in his Scoutmaster's handbook. Or have your SPL review his "troop organizational chart" in his SPL handbook.

Point is, do they still have those charts? It's been a few years.............

sst3rd

Signman,

There are national rules and protocols. I guess every Lodge may choose to use them or not, or some combination. Having an adult OA member in the Troop certainly allows the knowledge of these elections and call-outs used in your council. With this knowledge, problems can be addressed in a pro-active manner.

Scouts need to have a positive experience in "their" troop. How did your son accidentally get called-out? Wow, it's now behind you. Become knowledable about these processes for the future, and make sure the election and call-out programs are a positive experience for your troop.

Many years ago, and as a young non-OA Scoutmaster, I promoted the OA and requested our first election. A father-son Election Team showed up and worked with me and the Scouts through our election. All went well until the adult adviser started acting uppity and wouldn't give me the election results (because I was a non-member). I reminded him that I was the Scoutmaster and expected a transparent process. He again refused to show me the results. I asked for this rule in "writing." Obviously, he couldn't produce anything. I dismissed both of them from our meeting and declared (privately to this election team) the OA Election voided. He said "I couldn't do that", and I said "I just did."

As I escorted both of them out the door, he started backpedaling. All went well after that. Knowledge is power. Know what is supposed to be happening in the OA, and guide your Troop through them.

As far as I've seen over the many years, our lodge as had appropriate elections, call-outs, and ceremonies. No secrets were ever found. Let's please do right by our Scouts. It's hard to un-ring a bell.

Signman, if the OA needs to be removed from your Troop until things are straightened out, do it.

sst3rd

KJ,

Get out now. Nothing is going to change. Let her take it on. Find a troop that's running the Scouting program.

sst3rd

Andysmom,

Was this your son's first summer camp experience? I'm impressed by the combination of merit badges he took and successfully completed. He came to camp prepared and ready to go. I hope he also had some fun as well. His taking personal responsibility is impressive as well. Maybe this was a second or third year, but sounds like he's getting some great support and encouragement from you. He's got a great Scouting future ahead.

No doubt over the thirty odd years I've been a SM attending summer camps, programs have changed to meet demand. Out of nowhere this year, my home camp seemed to be offering every merit badge in existence. How could they do that? You know how............

sst3rd

Old_OX,

Point taken on "unselfish service", but it's still the Scoutmaster's decision, as he/she may not be an OA member.

sst3rd

KDD,

The requirement is as follows:

"While a First Class Scout, take part in service project(s) totaling at least six hours of work. These projects must be approved by your Scoutmaster."

So, if the Scout gets approval from his Scoutmaster, it's all good.

sst3rd

Calico,

And I wish him and his supporters the very best as they clean up after the parade. It's really that simple.

sst3rd

David CO,

"why would OA encourage a boy to leave his troop in order to join OA?"

Where do you get that from?

sst3rd

Thomas,

There is obviously nothing that we can say that will deter you from wanting to bring your fixed blade knives. Whether you're a youth or an adult, you simply don't need more than a simple pocket knife in the Boy Scouts. Your troop doesn't want sheathe knifes. Let it go. There is much more to the Scout program than knives.

But I'm sure that's not the answer you wanted to hear. So, find a Troop that accepts your knives, or quit Scouting.

sst3rd

Oldscout448,

Our lodge has made a similar decision. The Lodge Executive Committee made the decision last month to move all Ordeal Ceremonies to before dinner, so that all new members can enjoy dinner free of restrictions. This will open the evening to fellowship and chapter meetings that will better explain the OA and how it is organized. Of course, all of this is the answer to increased membership retention and growing the lodge. This is also the reason that our long time Lodge Adviser resigned. This also includes the chapter ceremony teams taking over the Ordeal Ceremonies Saturday afternoon, starting in 2015. I'll miss the night time ceremonies as well. It just gets better and better.

sst3rd

abc123,

I realize that you are a Scout, but as a former Scoutmaster of many years, the nomination and election process should have been explained to the troop before the annual election. And then, the OA Elections representative should have reviewed the OA election process to the troop just prior to the election. After all of the regular requirements for nomination for an OA election are met, one final requirement needs to be met. That is the Scoutmaster's approval. After all of this is done, I always wrote the nominated Scouts up on our blackboard for all to review several weeks prior to the election. This gives all Scouts nominated or not, an opportunity to talk with the Scoutmaster about any questions. The Scoutmaster should have been more involved with your OA Election. He signs the paperwork.

sst3rd

Another update,

Had our monthly chapter meeting. It was planned by the Scouts for training in our two most active committees, elections and ceremonies. But because of the weather, snow and ice, we had low attendance and concentrated on the ceremonies committee only. But before that was to happen, a district guy gave a long winded speech on OA Journey To Excellence. This wasn't on the schedule, but the chapter adviser didn't intercede. Then we went through chapter business. So, that gave my youth leader about 30 minutes for training for upcoming Arrow of Light Ceremonies. Oh well.

At the end of the meeting, our chapter adviser talked to all of the members about the upcoming changes. This is appearing more and more specifically about our lodge only. The changes are to keep and increase membership. In reference to the lodge and chapter ceremony teams, I became even more confused. He said that the Lodge Executive Committee was discussing having the chapter ceremonial teams perform Ordeal ceremonies at the Service (formerly Ordeal) Weekends. But they want these chapter teams to be part of the lodge ceremony team. What? How is that supposed to work? Something about grouping everyone together, creating Ordeal Ceremony Teams from all of the chapters, ranking them in performance levels, and then assigning them to perform at multiple Ordeal Ceremonies at multiple sites throughout camp at the same time. They also want the Ordeal ceremonies to be done in the early afternoon (no darkness) and completed, so that the new OA members can enjoy supper and the entire evening of activities, as full OA members. This would allow them to participate fully, and feel accepted. This is supposed to keep them involved and interested. Anyway, he went on to say that nothing will happen until 2015.

My question is, if I'm to advise our chapter ceremonial team in performing the full Ordeal Ceremony by 2015, we would need to start NOW.

That's all for now. I don't expect any other information for a while. We have six chapters, and what I consider overall, an active lodge, so I'm not sure why we're making all of these changes. Oh yeah, that's right, to increase membership. I'm sure we have a lot of those sash and dash OA members, but we have a good bunch of dedicated OA Scouts as well. Did anyone ask the Scouts how to improve our chapters and lodge? Didn't think so.

Thanks for listening,

sst3rd

Update;

Our chapter adviser e-mailed me, that having attended this recent Lodge Executive Committee meeting, he took away the following:

all OA members must be members of a lodge AND chapter committee. He seems to think the LEC thinks all of our current lodge committees are currently poorly attended, thus inactive, and need an infusion of sorts.

The youth chairman, of the OA Chapter Ceremony Committee that I advise, called me last night and said:

the Lodge Ceremony Team is asking all chapters to recruit for their lodge ceremony team (no deadline mentioned), as they will do the Ordeal Ceremonies at the three scheduled Service (Ordeal) Weekends for 2014. If their membership doesn't grow, they will dump the Ordeal Ceremony program responsibilities onto the chapter ceremony teams. He also mentioned that the national OA approved Ordeal Ceremony script would be used. When I mentioned to him about ceremony associated equipment needed, he said, that wasn't discussed.

So, I'm getting closer to what's going on. It doesn't change the fact that out of six chapters in our lodge, that only three have somewhat active ceremony teams. What happens if a team can't perform? Incoming Ordeal member gets no ceremony? I guess so. You can't MAKE these Scouts do this. Anyway, just my two cents.

WWW

sst3rd

Hitawtunhe and jpstodwftexas,

Thanks for the responses. I know of what you speak. As I stated earlier, I received this info from the dad of two Scouts that attended this LEC meeting. The younger brother is the current chapter ceremony chairman. The older brother happens to be the prior chapter ceremony chairman. So we can say I received this info second hand.

I've had e-mails and phone calls to the Chapter Adviser who also attended this Lodge Executive Committee meeting I spoke of earlier. Haven't had any responses as of yet. Our next chapter meeting is training for the ceremony and election committees anyway. We're getting ready for the upcoming AOL/Blue and Gold season. I'll see what the Chapter Adviser has to say. It may be all about nothing.

Take care,

sst3rd

Old_OX_Eagle83,

Thanks for the response. I've advised the chapter ceremony team for many years. Experience has shown me that Scouts have less and less time for extra Scouting responsibilities. We are able to perform Arrow of Light Ceremonies for Packs usually during the February/March time frame (graduations and Blue and Golds), and perform Call-Out Ceremonies throughout the year at a Troop's request. It's worked for the 35 years I've been involved. I haven't been able to find out the details of what changed on the lodge level, but I will eventually. Your thoughts on execution, mentoring, and evaluation, are steps currently being used, by other names. Your mentioning "negative spin" and "better answers" don't work in this situation, as when a Scout is elected into the OA, there has always been an Ordeal Ceremony at the Service Weekend (formerly the Ordeal Weekend, and offered three times a year) on that Saturday night. It has always been the lodge's responsibility that this happens, having the lodge's ceremonial team perform the Ordeal ceremony.

I did find out that the Lodge Ceremonial Team is writing the script by which each Chapter Ceremonial Team will perform the Ordeal Ceremony. So, they don't want the responsibility anymore, but can dictate how it's done? It keeps getting better.

Take care,

sst3rd

jpstodwftexas,

Wow. So many questions. Thanks. I'll try to answer some of them.

I've been in this lodge for many years, so here's how we're organized. Our council= our lodge

Each of our districts= each of our chapters

We follow all OA rules, procedures, and protocols with the Lodge Executive Committee taking the lead.

Our three service weekends are what were our Ordeals. The program is the same, service too the camp, with Ordeal and Brotherhood Ceremonies done Saturday night.

The three active committees for the lodge, are the service, dance, and ceremony committees. Dance and Ceremony committees tend to be called teams. I know all of the advisers. They have open membership and actively have the members recruit all of the time.

On the chapter level, all of our districts have an associated OA Chapter, Some are more active then others. However, on the chapter level, the two most active committees, are the election and ceremony committees, also usually called a team. Again, I know all of the advisers, and membership is open. Recruitment is continuous.

As a chapter ceremony committee adviser, I was advised by a dad of my current ceremony committee chairperson (a Scout), that his son attended this past weekend, a normal quarterly Lodge Executive Committee meeting (LEC). A subject brought up, was the lodge ceremony team giving the Ordeal Ceremony responsibilities, to the Chapter Ceremony Teams. The reason given, was that Saturday night Ordeal Ceremonies took too much time. Of course, this has been this way for many years. Why the change? I don't know, but will find out. So, the lodge wants each chapter to have their own Ordeal Ceremony on Saturday night of each Service Weekend at the same time, instead of the one lodge Ordeal Ceremony in the lodge ceremony ring. I guess each meeting in their own separate specific campsite around our camp (we have only one). So, the lodge ceremony team would only be responsible for Friday night pre-ordeal ceremonies, brotherhood ceremonies, and vigil ceremonies (we have vigil once a year at our annual OA fellowship in October. Our fellowship weekend is for fun only).

Sorry I've gone on for too long. I'll find out more as time goes forward.

sst3rd

Our Lodge has three "service" weekends each year; September, March, and June. These used to be called Ordeal Weekends, but someone complained about the forced labor part of the cheerful service. I was informed tonight from our Chapter Adviser, that Ordeal Ceremonies will no longer be presented by the Lodge Ceremony Team at these service weekends, and will be presented by the Chapter Ceremony Teams. Three of the six chapters in our lodge, don't have a ceremony team (which traditionally provides Arrow of Light and Call-Out Ceremonies). Last weekend, our LEC made this decision. I'm not sure how they expect this to happen. So, any other Lodge do this? And if so, how?

Take care all,

sst3rd

The Order of the Arrow is what you do with it. If you expect your lodge/chapter to have an incredible program of which you get to pick and choose what you want to do, you will be very disappointed. It is unfair for any OA member to criticize the lodge or chapter, without getting directly involved. Scouts and Scouters make it work or not. I wish the OA hadn't opened up the nomination requirements, but they did. It is up to the Scoutmasters to make sure that if a Scout wants to be nominated for their annual OA Election, that they understand the benefits and responsibilities of the OA. The Scoutmaster's approval requirement for nomination for election, seems to be getting ignored a lot, and should be where potential OA members need to think if they really want to be a member or not. Over many years as a SM, I've had Scouts turn down having their name on the ballot for just that. Brotherhood of Cheerful Service. Go big, or go home.

We have an active lodge and chapter. Are they perfect? No. It's always a work in progress. You've got to get involved. It's another Scouting opportunity.

sst3rd

PA Scoutmaster,

The last requirement for a Scout to be eligible for an OA Election, is the Scoutmaster's approval. That's where you get rid of " the oldest, the biggest, or the funniest." You need to have a serious conversation with each qualified Scout about their future commitment to the Troop with the addition of being a member of the OA, and then make that decision. I've had approved candidates remove themselves from the election, because they wanted their Scout time to be with the Troop, and didn't have extra time for the OA. That's a mature choice. There's always next year.

Thanks for your service. Make it mean something.

sst3rd

(former SM, always OA)