sst3rd

This is going to be a bit "scattered", but I thought I would look into this process.

I was a Webolos in the late 60's. I received my AOL, and was brought into our Troop as a Tenderfoot in 1968 (give or take, it's been a year or two). That's all I can tell you. It worked for me and my brother.

I don't have my specific handbooks available, but I have a collection of older Scout handbooks, but I don't have any Cub Scout books to reference from, sorry.

In the 1959 copyright handbook, page 28 simply mentions the age of 11, and nothing else, to become a Boy Scout. Page 29 mentions how to find a Troop, and then page 30 mentions "Meeting the Tenderfoot Tests." It also states that, "if you are a Cub Scout, you will learn the tests while you work for your Webolos badge in your Webolos den."

"When your patrol leader is confident that you know your stuff (I see no mention of testing or retesting),he'll get you a Scout application form."

It then mentions having you sign it, the parents sign it, and then take the application to the Scoutmaster with your fee. It says that "Your Scoutmaster will go over the Tenderfoot tests with you to make sure that you know them and understand them (again, I see no mention of testing or retesting). When he is satisfied, he will send your application and your membership fee to the National Council of the Boy Scouts of America......". So, could this be how Webolos come into the Troop as a Tenderfoot? It just so happens it was the first rank that you worked on.

The 1965 copyrighted handbook says the same things.

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One last bit, again scattered, the 1979 copyrighted book on page 531 in listing the Tenderfoot Rank requirements, has as requirement number 1) Be active in your troop and patrol for at least 2 months.* And then there is a footnote that says, "The Scoutmaster may waive the 2 - month service requirement for the Tenderfoot rank for a new Scout who has earned the Arrow of Light Award as a Webolos Scout."

Hey, just some thoughts...............

sst3rd

Sounds like this Scoutmaster "owns" the program and the Committee is taking their queue from him. Since this Troop's program stinks, run don't walk to that other troop.

Yes, I'm being blunt. But in this case, let's be selfish in favor of your son. He deserves the best Scout program available. Let your old Troop proceed on its path of self destruction.

As far as you feeling guilty that the old Troop can't get that second adult on Troop activites without you, speaks volumes again as to the poor quality of their program. For the sake of your son and you, take your support to that other Troop. Help support and enhance their programs, which are obviously headed in the right direction.

sst3rd

Owl62,

I understand your frustration. I have long since made the decision to not support FOS (and the prior SME). Justify it anyway you like, my limited Scouting designated contributions go to the unit program.

Our Council has for years assigned FOS goals for the Troops and hung a chart with all of this info at every Roundtable. Gee, why the public show? Our Troop's Committee Chairperson and I (SM) would just laugh, usually in front of the DE who would always be stationed in front of this poster.

Our Committee does discuss FOS every year, and with the continued increasing pressure, we continue to concentrate on the Troop, it's programs and operations, only. We are families of limited resources, and our Scout dollars go to the unit.

At our December Roundtable. the DE required every units FOS representative's name, address, and phone number, so they could get the training info to them. Plus, the DE wanted the dates of everyone's Christmas dinners, banquets, and/or Court of Honors for the FOS presentations. Most units didn't give him this info. He wasn't very happy.

FOS will continue to be a non-issue for our Troop. Program for the Scouts comes first. Period.

sst3rd

No.

Oren,

I really do respect the "cross-generational admiration" that was achieved by combining a Troop Court of Honor with a Beading Ceremony, but I strongly feel that Troop Court of Honors need to be separate, and stand alone. The program is for the Scouts, not adults.

Clyde,

I respect your desire to have a big party for your Woodbadger, but this is a leadership training program to improve the Scout's program. Making such a huge deal for this person is off the mark. Just my opinion. Congratulations to this leader on his continued committment to Scouting.

If we put all of this incredible energy into the Scout's program and not recognizing adult leaders with big celebrations, think of the improvements in your unit's program.

sst3rd

SE-499-31

ASM59,

Yes, I've heard of other Troops having this problem. But I'll admit, as the current SM at the Troop that I serve, I keep on top of advancement. I know when a Scout is approaching completion of a rank. No, we don't ask the Scouts to set up their own Boards of Review. But we don't spoon feed BOR's either. The Scout has to make the move, but it usually happens as the Scout is having his Scoutmaster's Conference.

Which leaves me with the following questions:

1) Can we assume that the Scoutmaster who said that he didn't have the Scoutmaster's Conference with this Scout, actually sign off that requirement? If not, and even with the Board's signatures, the rank is not completed. The Scoutmaster is charged with making sure the book is signed off before he has the Scoutmasters Conference, as this feeds into the notion that the Board also has to be sure all requirements are signed off.

2) You're correct, the Board is supposed to "review" the book for signatures for the requirements, and make sure everything is complete BEFORE they execute the Board.

So, you see. There are several checks and balances in the rank advancement process. Your Committee is not following common sense procedures.

Your Scoutmaster needs to "pick it up a notch." He's not following the "program."

Again. You have my permission to change Troops. You can fix all of these problems. And I think you being overwhelmed. Your son deserves better. "Just Do It."

sst3rd

You make correct points. Our Troop's committee always attends trips and all other activities in support of the Scouts. We have a couple of good ASM's, but the Scouts enjoy having the Committee along. They don't know the difference. Committee members can sign off requirements just like the SM's and ASM's can.

Your other thread; leave your current troop with no guilt. You and your son can find a Troop that would provide Scouting opportunities for you son, and for you to support.

sst3rd

I'll go along with everyone else, in that this guys involvement is not wanted.

I have a slightly different take on Eagle Ceremonies. As the Scoutmaster, I guide the Eagle Scout in his options of his Eagle Ceremony. I make sure he understands the purpose of this ceremony, and his choices. Each individual Eagle has his own ideas. I think the Scoutmaster helps flush them out and organizes the parts for this Scout. Let's face it, once the ceremony begins, the Eagle only participates.

Here's an example. I had an Eagle Scout who I assisted in his Ceremony. We got to the part about his parents and the parent pins and how he may want to present them during the ceremony, etc.. In the most appropriate manner, he said that he would like to present the parent pins to his folks at home privately. Although his parents supported him fully in Scouting, they never participated. He felt that recognizing them during his Eagle Ceremony public was overkill, and that his parents would be uncomfortable. Hey, he knows his parents better than I did. Wonderful folks though. They had a great time at the ceremony. All went well.

Again, I think it's up to the Scoutmaster to make sure the Eagle knows his options, and assists in making it happen.

sst3rd

The reason our Troop never goes to our council's camp, is because of the Staff and many other factors. They receive little pay and are overworked. Many quit after the first week and more continue to quit throughout the summer. The next year, a younger and brand new Staff. Inexperienced and low in knowledge, I'm sure they do their best, but it doesn't provide an outstanding program.

So, now that Jon has quit, whose going to cover his responsibilities? I guess the remaining pool/waterfront/aquatics staff?

As Scoutmaster, we review several camps throughout the year, and let our Scouts choose. It's usually a camp at Blue Ridge Mountains Council in Virginia. Outstanding program, Staff, and facilities.

It's about the Scouts.

sst3rd

Just got back this afternoon. Camp Powhatan continues to have an excellent program on almost all levels. Blue Ridge Mountains Council continues to offer many camps to choose from. Their Staff at Camp Powhatan, is second to none. From Sunday night's opening campfire to Friday night's closing campfire, this Staff continues to add to its mystique.

Facilities are a bit worn, but still work. Their programs continue to be outstanding.

The food is excellent. Portions are average. But sometimes food (only breakfast for some reason)is stone cold. Our Troop loves to help the Staff serve dinners for the Camp's two evening cook-outs (with live entertainment).

As well as everything this camp seems to do well, the big Friday night Closing Campfire opened with a video on a huge screen (yes, drive-in size) just as the sun was going down. This video was a collection of action shots from throughout our week's activities. When a Scout or group of Scouts showed up on the screen, you could hear the shouts of excitement. It was outstanding. Of course the video was available on DVD for a small price after the campfire. It soldout quickly (we did get ours). This will be a great recruitment tool !!!!

Weather was a bit wet most evenings, but warm during the day and cool at night. We're already signed up for next year, because this camp fills up by the end of each prior summer camp season.

So many other great things about this camp and its program, but too much to put here. It was our 20th year (had a few gaps here and there) going to Blue Ridge Mountains Council camps.

Yes, we're out of their council. We support our own council's camp (OA, Troop, and personal work weekends), but our council doesn't care to put the money into the camp and programs (and that's the short version).

sst3rd

All good info,

I want to bring up something that doesn't get brought up much. I think it's extremely important for the Scoutmaster to meet with each Scout eligible for the OA election. The Scoutmaster needs to review with each Scout the responsibilities of being an OA member, and how it relates to his Troop. Some Scouts may NOT want to have their name in nomination (yes, I use the term nomination) for the OA election. Even if a Scout meets the requirements and has the Scoutmaster's approval, they simply may not want to be involved with the OA. The Scout needs to make that decision. The list the Scoutmaster provides to the OA Election Committee for the Troop's election, should not include Scouts not wanting to be OA members. Then there are no wasted votes.

sst3rd

And a good life to you too, Dozy.

Your desire to always go up the ladder is amusing. The further up you go, the further away from the program you go.

You've been getting lot's of input from lots of folks. Some you don't agree with. Take what you will from these exchanges, and drop the rest. Your taking yourself too seriously. Breathe, please.............

Gee, your desire to follow the "book" is noble, but the Scouting program is so much more than that. It's people. Adults and youth. It's a team effort adult and youth leaders. Sounds like your adults don't want to work together, don't want to train the youth leaders, and really just don't want a Scout program. How long are you going to beat your head against the brick wall ????

Even if the adults get training or are already trained, they still need to work their responsibilities for the betterment of the Troop's program. It seems many of your adult leaders are in Scouting for the wrong reasons. They need to leave, be asked to leave, or if they won't, you need to leave. I don't see them changing.

I'd wish you luck, but it's really too late for that.

sst3rd

nldscout,

You sure are working hard to be critical of a district you know nothing about.

Featherbear's district nominated him into the OA. You have no right, authority, or responsibility to question his district's process and protocol with their OA Lodge.

Your quote of, "I am not sure how your district nominated you, but they did not follow the rules for district nomination as it appears your primary registration is in the Pack or Troop. Therefor you were not eligable for district nomination." But featherbear's district did nominate him !!!!

"This is why we have pushed for years to get ridd of district nominations, just because of this example." WOW, the OA police.

There are special situations where a district at large nomination is needed as an option. For example, a new Scout troop or a smaller rebuilding Scout Troop, that has mostly adult leaders who are new to the BSA. Yet, a seasoned and trained adult leader that deserves an OA nomination, can't get one because the Troop Committee is learning how to support the Troop program, and has no idea what the OA is about. It would help to get this adult on board in the OA, in order to get these new Scouts thinking about the OA. Sure, this new or small Troop can wait a few years until the Troop's Committee learns about the OA and maybe considers it for the Troop and their adult leaders, but that's time wasted. Sure, the local OA Chapter Election Committee can come out and do an election in this Troop before an adult is involved, but I think it works better the other way around.

featherbear, have a great Ordeal. The fellowship you are about to enter, will give you all of the ideas you want, on how to get the OA involved with the Packs, or why not to get them more involved. Personally, I think Crossovers and Arrow of Light Ceremonies are enough. I think the Packs do not need to be prematurely exposed to everything on the Boy Scout level. It's called age appropriate activities, and I think the Order of the Arrow fits into that category.

sst3rd

Once signed, the requirements are completed. Yes, the next place to catch all of this is at the Board of Review.

When ADD and similar labels became attached to negative behaviors and medication was despensed, I was told by a Scout's parent that I had (the Scoutmaster) to deal with her son whether he behaved or not on Scout activities, because he had an illness. I told her that I begged to differ. If her Scout does not apply himself to a certain level of responsibility (medicated or not), he was not welcome on those Scouting functions. Period. No arguments. And yes, since I'm responsible for the safety of all of the Scouts on these Troop activities, I get to set that level.

As scoutldr said, we just aren't aware of all of the details to this complicated situation. I'll stop there.

I trust MaScout in her evaluation of this Scout, and it sounds as if it has, and will continue to be, reviewed and supported to the best interest of this Scout. But let's not forget the disruption of the Troop and Patrol programs. Resolve it NOW, or it will tear down your program. Yes, speaking from experiences.

sst3rd

PL's are elected, and then they select their APL.

So, the APL replaces the PL as necessary.

This "go-getter", is he in the same Patrol? If so, yes maybe the APL, soon to be summer camp PL, may be guided to ask the "go-getter" to be his summer camp APL. If the "go-getter" isn't even in this affected Patrol, it's not an issue and shouldn't be brought up as an option.

In the end, the APL (summer camp PL) should be supported to make "his" choice for an APL for summer camp.

That's the BSA program.

sst3rd

oldsm,

Our Troop just started registering all of our MB counselors with MB and adult leader applications last year. We were also told that they would have to go through this process every year. So, our Advancement Committee person just started to put this year's paperwork together, and our Council sent out a letter to all MB counselors saying that they DO NOT have to "re-up" every year, and that only if they wish to be dropped as MB counselors, do they need to get in touch with the Council.

Maybe this is a Council by Council choice. National wasn't mentioned.

I'm happy,

sst3rd

Its Me,

You're absolutely right. No return on your investment. And let's face it, your investment is all that it's about. Nothing in the BSA that you and your family can't do otherwise. Get out of the program now!!!!

sst3rd

mikeb,

Not mean't to be harsh. You said, "I think I'm going to discreetly ask a few more questions to the young man and some of the Troop leaders." Key words being "more" and "some".

I figured you'd roll out your Scouting background if challenged. Since you have all of this Scouting background, training, and knowledge but still question the OA Election process of your new Troop, why not talk with, not challenge, but talk with the Scoutmaster about your discussion with this Scout. I would guess that he/she would not mind explaining his/her decision and thoughts. Then again, maybe not.

You write, "In fact the more I think about the grief it could bring to this young man to know he could have been elected (if that's the case,) the more I think I should just leave this alone." You evidently still don't trust these Scout leaders to have done it right for the Troop, but especially for this one Scout. You've already made up your mind.

"BTW, how would you feel if it were your son?" If my son was questioning the reason he was not allowed to be nominated, I'd have a meeting with the Scoutmaster, myself, and my son. We're all here for the same reason. The Scouts. Let's get everything clarified. That's how we all learn.

I'm done. Yours In Scouting,

sst3rd

mikeb,

Everything I've read up to this point clears things a bit. What I don't understand is, since you and your son have just graduated into this Troop one month ago, why are you trying to make waves so soon? You don't mention that you are an OA member or have past experience with the OA or Scouting for that matter.

Has it not occured to you that this Scoutmaster and adult Staff know the qualifications for OA youth election nominations? The Chapter Election Committee, with an adult advisor, is charged with working with this Troop's Scoutmaster in running the annual OA Election. Do you not think they are trained in the OA election process? Do you not think that this Troop has had prior OA Elections and knows what they're doing?

Although the Scouts vote in this annual election, OA nomination requirements must be met. The very last requirement that must be met, is the "Scoutmaster's Approval." Have you ever thought that maybe the Scoutmaster has lots of past knowledge of this particular Scout, and may not think he shows Scouting Spirit to the level he feels meets his approval?

So you want to discreetly ask a few "more" questions (meaning I guess that you've already started stirring the pot) of this young man and "some" of the Troop leaders. Do you have any idea what this sounds like you're trying to do?

You mentioned that this was your youngest son graduating. Does this mean that you had an older son in Scouting. In this Troop? If you are new with this Troop, have you joined as an adult leader yet. What position? Have you had Troop adult leader training yet? If you are still a supportive parent with the Troop, and not yet a registered adult leader, why are you so interested in correcting this perceived "wrong"?

I guess I would suggest that you talk to the Scoutmaster about all of this, but I just don't see why you think it is any of your business.

I may be "way" wrong about your presented situation. I can only go by what you have given. But, you asked what we thought.

sst3rd

Eamonn,

The unit is where the action is. That's where the Scouts benefit. That's where my efforts go.

jkhny,

You are bitter. Spin all you want. Use your resources up complaining and whining. I'm not saying you're not right. You don't like the way things are, but obviously can't do anything about it. You are spinning your wheels. If this is how you want to spend your energy, have at it. Our Council is doing okay. It's not perfect, but we get the support across the board that we unit leaders need. That's it. Our units are doing well.

WWW

sst3rd

Our Council has done Scouting For Food for many years on the first and second weekends of November, as was the BSA's National Good Turn program. However, since the BSA has terminated that program and allowed each Council to do their own thing, our Council decided to keep all as is. We are the number "1" contributor to our local food bank. The first weekend the units distribute the bags to our assigned territories. The second weekend the units pick up the bags that have been set out with food.

What makes this program so successful and simple for our Scouts, is that each District in the Council, organizes its areas and assigns each unit (Pack, Troop, or other) a territory. A local grocer donates and prints special paper grocery bags for all of the units to use. On these bags are the dates and instructions for our Scouting For Food program. It's worked great for years, and the Scouts get a great sense of pride for helping our community.

sst3rd

Vigil is a level, not a rank.

Why do we have to have another method of Vigil recognition?

What's the "pay off? Is your ego not being fed enough?

Have you forgotten what the OA stands for?

For crying out loud, leave it alone and work on making your unit the best it can ever be. The energy you're putting into this baseless crusade, should be put into your unit's program.

So, I guess by now, this Vigil member has made it clear where he stands. Youth or adult BSA member, needs no additional Vigil recognition. You don't look for the Vigil, the Vigil looks for you. Do the program !!!!!!!

WWW

sst3rd

SueM,

When you hold your next election, it is very important that the Scouts that will run for those positions know in advance what is required of them. And if they win the elections, take the training, but refuse to follow the training, they simply will immediately be released from their position, not given credit for their next rank, and a new election will occur. Have quick simple Scoutmaster Conferences with each candidate before the election, and make sure they understand that "their" Troop runs the BSA program, and that they will be trained in that program and expected to follow it (talk about a run on sentence).

After your SPL is elected, after the new SPL selects his ASPL (with SM's approval, and if the Troop still needs one), then the Patrols have their elections. Then the new PL selects his APL. Then train them all.

I also think you may not be using the PLC as often as you should. The SPL, ASPL, and the PL's need to be guided in the PLC's responsibilities. With the PLC guided and trained to plan all of the meetings, camping trips, and other Troop activities, I think a lot of your problems will subside. When the PLC sees that their input is important and used in planning the Troop's programs, they will see that they have an investment in their Troop. Take these new leaders immediately into you confidence, accept only their best efforts, and there will be no need for them to "stand up" to their so called friends. Make the meetings and camping trips "full" of events and activities. The problems do occurr when there is free time. Our Troop never has any free time. There's just too much planned fun stuff to do. And that's the PLC's job.

sst3rd

funscout,

Yes, my basic knowledge of and my joy of cooking came from my Scout days.

sst3rd

I agree John-in-KC,

And this has been posted on many times before, but the Cooking merit badge needs to be returned to the required list.

sst3rd

SMT224,

Understood.

Everyone is approaching this appropriately. Great ideas all. What I think SMT224 is leading to, is that after a committment is made, long term or short term, an adult (leader or parent) will be held responsible to be sure all of this happens.

Whether it's the older woman or the requester asking for the help, once an ongoing service project like this starts, it won't end except on bad terms. When the Scout, Scouts, Patrol, or Troop tires of the service project (as in this case a variety of yardwork yearround), all sorts of excuses will be forthcoming as to why they can't make it the next project day. And then it winds up being that adult leader(or parent) and his/her son to grudgingly go rake the leaves.

In the end, the older woman or requester, will not talk to the Scout, they'll want to talk to an adult. They know it's the adult who can round up the Scouts when the need arrises. And the need will arise often.

As a Scoutmaster, we'll only take on "one" time projects like yard work. Any ongoing requests are told "no thanks" and I don't feel I owe them an explanation, because you'll be talking to a wall. You're right. I make those decisions with the Assistant Scoutmasters and the Committee, because in the end, we'll be the ones "stuck" with this project. Am I talking from many years of experience in this area? You bet.

What's that old Cub Scout saying? KISMIF.

Keep it simple, make it fun. It does apply here. Even to these older Scouts.

sst3rd