sst3rd

Perdidochas,

The Troop of which I served as SM, attended Camp Daniel Boone about 10 years ago, for two years. The Scouts loved it. Excellent staff, good facilities, very good program. Of course, there may have been changes since then, but one thing I don't think has changed over the years, is the extremely cold lake. It was almost unusable. After the swim checks Sunday afternoon, most of my Scouts didn't want to go back. The Staff asked us SM's early on to encourage our Scouts to go to the lake, and of course the best way to set the example, is to go yourself. I did. But it was COLD. There are variables each year I'm sure, so maybe someone will speak up who attended this past summer. Maybe they built a pool. I'm interested to hear.

sst3rd

Old448,

Thanks for the update. Sounds like he's got a good head on his shoulders. I'm glad he knows that he can always find another program that better fits his wants and needs. Maybe others will follow. I like the fact he made his decision and set a good example. Our district has a few hard headed Scoutmasters that refuse to give the OA program a chance with the Troops that they serve. It happens.

Moving forward,

sst3rd

448,

Embarrassing is all I can say. What a baby (that Scoutmaster). Talk about setting a lousy example. It's hard changing troops if the OA issue is the only concern.So, stay with this troop and know what you've got, or take your time and help your son find a more complete Scouting program including the OA. If he's not getting ready to turn 18 soon, he'll have time to make friends and build a good reputation. For your son to want to face this adversity head on, I'm impressed. Continue to support him as he moves forward.

sst3rd

BD,

Hey, I was just trying to give 448 a little background. Don't bite my head off. You wonder why some folks don't participate here. In short, there are no rules to MAKE the Scoutmaster execute an OA Election. The Scoutmaster answers to the Committee Chairperson, Charter Organization Representative, and Institutional Head. They can ORDER him to do it. And when he still says NO, he quits or gets fired. How's that?

So 448, find another Troop.

sst3rd

448,

This subject comes up occasionally. There's no written rule addressing this. With 40 years as a Scoutmaster with two different troops but the same council/lodge, I felt comfortable in leading this effort of an annual OA Election. Paperwork needs Scoutmaster's signature. The last requirement for a Scout to stand in an OA Election, is the Scoutmaster's approval. This allowed me to talk with current youth OA members about each upcoming election. I even talk to the potential nominees, as some turned the opportunity down that year. We never missed one, however, we did have an election (under the old rules) where none of the nominees had enough votes. We had a great Tap-Out Ceremony on a camping trip down by a lake, where the Team tapped no one. The OA Scouts wanted to make a point. They did. I still value the OA. For us, it's not free labor. Evidently our lodge has a "balanced" experience. Scoutmaster's should weed out the sash and dash Scouts. It looks bad for the Troop.

sst3rd

Krampus,

My district follows the program. I said you were living a Scoutmaster's nightmare, not that you were that nightmare. Parents should trust the Scout leaders of their son's Troop, to execute the BSA program. Your parents don't, and demand documentation for all decisions made by your Troop's adult leadership. This "culture thing" evidently is the nightmare, and your whole district operates this way. Wow, how sad. How do you have time to be a Scoutmaster, when you're too busy trying to satisfy the demands of your parents? And you're not having any fun? The stress has got to be through the roof. This isn't a Scout program. There's got to be a Troop somewhere that actually runs the BSA program. Go there, fast. I wish you the best.

sst3rd

Krampus,

You're living a Scoutmaster's nightmare. You can't create enough guidelines to satisfy yourself and these parents. Get out while you can. The Cub Scouts have used an unofficial guideline for years: KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid. For crying out loud, back off or back out. You're creating problems where there are none. You obviously are not having fun as a Scout leader, and it shows. Your Scouts see this as well. The level of trust parents have in the adult leaders to provide the Scout's support for their program, should be very high. This should include your ability to make a decision about a Scout's qualifications to be approved (as the Scoutmaster) as a candidate for an Order of the Arrow Election. Trustworthy.

sst3rd

I agree with BD on the quality control issue. Krampus, the unit leader approves or disapproves the Scout to be nominated for an OA Election. The unit leader has no written criteria by which to make this decision: no checklist. The unit leader takes the "big" picture approach, and then makes the call. If a Scout wants to know why he didn't get nominated, he can ask for a Scoutmaster's Conference. Or, if the Scoutmaster wants to be proactive (before the OA Election), he can have a Scoutmaster's Conference with each potential candidate, and let them know his decision there. Also, another reason I've been doing it this way for years, it gives you a great opportunity to talk with the Scouts about the OA, and its expectations. I've had Scouts remove their name from nomination, because they felt they didn't have the additional time to participate. Seriously, if you're going to do a sash and dash, don't bother wasting everyone's time, including your own. It's worked for us for over 38 years.

sst3rd

Mozartbrau,

You don't mention the date of the election of these Scouts. As I mentioned before, the clock started clicking for these Scouts to take their Ordeal up to one year after their election. I will assume that the Scoutmaster signed the election paperwork the night of the election, and the Election Team should have already turned in this paperwork to the Lodge. These Scouts should have already received their invitations to the very next Ordeal. While you are deciding about having a Call-Out/Tap-Out or not, I'm concerned that these Scouts will miss opportunities to complete their Ordeal. These are national OA procedures that I'm mentioning.

Again, no Call-Out/Tap-Out needed. Get them to an Ordeal of their choice soon. Can you do a unit Call-Out/Tap-Out? Yes, but not at the expense of these Scouts having the opportunity to attend the next available Ordeal program. I know you want the best for your Scouts, but stop worrying about the politics, and get them to an Ordeal.

WWW

sst3rd

Mozartbrau,

The Call-Out/Tap-Out you refer to, isn't really an official OA Ceremony. I'm not sure of its beginning, but it's been around for a long time and is a BIG part of OA traditions. I'm the adviser to our Chapter's Ceremonial Team. We do requested Troop Call-Out/Tap-Outs, and Pack Arrow of Light ceremonies for our district. I'm also a Scoutmaster, and a Call-Out ceremony is not required. In fact, you're burning up time. The year that these Scouts have to complete their Ordeal, starts after their OA Election. Our Lodge Dance and Ceremonial Teams never do Call-Outs. These are left to the Chapter Ceremonial Teams. Troops can announce their candidates right after the OA Election, or may choose to wait for a summer camp, camporee, or a troop's own Call-Out Ceremony. So yes, your troop can put something together.

So, to recap; no Call-Out required. They need to go to the next available Ordeal program within the year after their election. Good luck.

sst3rd

Basementdweller,

This is my first reply in a while, so I don't know if it will make it.

So, I wouldn't let these challenges happen more than once a month. I'm guessing your meetings are an hour and a half. With prepping for the next trip, advancement, introducing new skills, and games (fun), I'd keep these challenges as special activities for the patrols to look forward to. I like the ribbons idea. Cheap but very visual. I've always liked your positive attitude towards your Scouting responsibilities.

sst3rd

Bigbovine,

I'm sure others will respond but I'll start. Election procedures for youth OA members have changed over the years. Current rules have been in affect for quite a few years. Once the Scoutmaster creates a list of qualified candidates for the Troop's OA Election (including he Scoutmaster's Approval), he invites an OA Chapter Election Team to execute an election. They will explain the election rules to your Scouts. Yes, you can vote for more than one.

As far as adults being selected (not voted), usually the Troop Committee decides this, after applying the adult qualifications. I believe the Scoutmaster and the assistants can participate as well. You can have one OA election per year, and can only select an adult candidate, if your Troop has a youth election (and actually elect a youth member). You can actually select more than one adult per year, if you have a larger Troop membership (maybe after 50 Scouts or so). I'm sure others will expand on this.

Good Luck,

sst3rd

Now that you mention it, I've only seen one Obama/Biden sticker all season. I'm not really looking for them though. It had just their two names, no slogans or symbols. And just today, I saw a very plain Romney/Ryan sticker. I also realized that these vehicles had no other stickers on their bumpers. I guess bumper stickers are indeed no longer considered reliable or effective communication tools.

I don't do Twitter or Facebook, or anything similar. I just don't have the time. I feel these candidates are forgetting about a big block of voters who actually get out and vote. Oh well, their loss.

sst3rd

Thanks for your assistance.

I found ILST, the "2011" version. Do I print it out, or is it available at the Council Service Shop? Is the 2011 the latest?

sst3rd

Just saw a television report that all of the US Olympic team's uniforms are designed by Ralph Lauren, and every item is made in China.

The US still can make some articles of clothing. Couldn't we have worked this one out somehow?

sst3rd

SM_Travis,

Sounds like everything is going in the right direction. Your steady efforts are paying off. But don't forget, sometimes the Scouts like to hear from the Scoutmaster.

sst3rd

Starfish2,

I have indeed read your posts.

I've been a Scoutmaster of a new community Scout Troop for about two years. The old Troop, of which I was a youth member, I was the Scoutmaster for over 33 years. The sponsor is the church I've belonged to all of my life. Out of no where, the church caved to a loud mouthed parent. The long time COR had no idea how to respond, so he caved. He had no idea how a Scout Troop and sponsor are structured. It was extremely hurtful, but I retired immediately. There had been lots of drama, but I walked away from a Troop very dear to me. And a heavy weight was lifted. After a two year break, my community wanted an "active" Scout Troop. They asked me to help, and off we went.

Walking away from this mess is not giving up. It's lifting a huge weight off of you and your family. It's taking care of you and your family. If you choose to get your son involved in a "real" Scout Troop, he would be able to experience the real Scouting trail. Be strong and move forward and away from this poisonous situation.

Take care,

sst3rd

Oak Tree brings up an important point. After discussing the OA with the Troop before your election, be sure that all Scoutmaster approved Scouts have given their desire to have their name on the ballot.

Years ago when the voting procedures were much more restrictive, Scouts on the ballot that had no intention on becoming OA members, messed it up for the other candidates.

If a Scoutmaster approves a candidate and they are voted into the OA, becomes a member, and then becomes inactive, as soon as that inactive Scout's annual membership expires, the OA flap comes off the uniform and the wearing of the sash is not allowed. That's the Scoutmaster's responsibility. Let's do it right for all of the active OA members.

sst3rd

I don't like having only two choices.

And I'm tired of voting "against" someone, instead of "for" someone.

I don't trust any of them.

sst3rd

emb021,

Many apologizes. The reply was in response to BadenP's comments. It's been a long day...........................

sst3rd

emb021,

The troop, district, and council I have been associated with all of my scouting career (38 years), have some of the most outstanding female leaders I've ever seen. And maybe it's just a matter of time. I just don't think it's any time soon. Maybe in the packs, but our troops run the program successfully on a variety of levels. Some troops are bigger than others for all of the normal reasons. But to incorporate girls in the mix, would dramatically change the dynamics as to completely change the program. I won't be there. And I am tired of hearing it.

sst3rd

To All,

For years, I've heard you folks talk about specific time frames for OA Elections. Our Lodge has had Ordeals (now called Service Weekends) in May/June, September, and March. Elections are held all year round. A Scout has a year to take his Ordeal from the date of his election. All of the Lodge's Chapter Election Teams promote elections all year long, and work with each Scoutmaster in scheduling the elections at their Troop's convenience. One election per calendar year is the rule.

Years of being involved at our Lodge, shows a fairly big turnout at the fall Service Weekend (to break down summer camp and put things away). We have a pretty big turnout for the winter Service Weekend (to maintain camp buildings and trails and/or upgrades). I consider our spring Service Weekend somewhat unique. It's a bit weak on Ordeal candidates, but we push for and get a good turnout of OA Scouts and Scouters because of the need to get the camp ready for upcoming summer camp (set up tents/platforms, clean all buildings, and everything else in preparation for camp inspection).

It works for us.

sst3rd

I was going to suggest you go to the source. Ask for 30 minutes of time at a Roundtable. Approach the subject in a positive manner. And ask for direct responses to your concerns. It might take a bit to get the conversation going, but be supportive. It may start off like pulling teeth, but be ready for challenging responses. It may be you just need to open a dialog with any of the Troop leaders available to you at the Roundtable. To me, direct contact will work best.

sst3rd

Ann,

Thanks for the update. Even with this restriction, maybe he could still be involved in some important way. Give it a bit of time. Keep him in the loop. But I'm glad it wasn't the "other" problem.

WWW

sst3rd