SSScout

"Arrrgh... The Pirates' Code... we be thinkin' it be only guidelines, really..." Capt. Barbossa.

"Morality cannot be legislated, but behavior can be regulated. Judicial decrees may not change the heart, but they can restrain the heartless." Martin Luther King Jr.

"No turtle ever made progress but he stuck his head out" unknown.

(Justice Scalia): Counsel, let's posit the following situation. A church sponsors a Scout Troop and Pack. Scout Sunday comes up, and the Troop and Pack participate. Lovely uniformed Scouts sit in the up front pews. Previously unexpectedly to the Scouts, the Pastor gets up and announces that the collection today will be "dedicated to our Scout units". Question: According to BSA regulations, may the Scout units accept the collected plate donations? It seems to me that the church, being the sponsoring organization, represents the Scout units and may not solicit on their behalf. Am I mistaken in this?

(Counsel BW:)

What infoscouter said.

Gold Shoulder Cord: Be a Den Chief. see www.scouting.org , Cub Scouts, Den Chief.

Red white and Blue Shoulder Cord: Den Chief Service Award. Take the training, be a Den Chief for a year, and do some other stuff.

Encourage'm. How they gonna be DenChief if'n they don't know they could be?

Train'em. How they gonna be a good Den Chief if'n they don't know what they should do?

Use'm. How they gonna feel good about bein' a Den Chief if'n they don't do it?

Attaboy'em. How they gonna keep doin' it if'n they don't know they doin' it good?

jblake: Keep pushing for the Council/District to offer the training. Help'em do it. Can't do anything but be good.

YiS

GW: Llikely, BW llooks to describe the lliscensing rulles the llocal units need to folllow. Often, I don't think llocall lleaders reallly consider the "officiall" rulles when they pllan their fund raising. After alll, when you're concern is paying the billls and sending the boys to camp, one might not stop at merelly sellling popcorn.

Then too, other non-Scout follks might take it on themsellves to help raise a llittlle money from the spare change that comes into their store, and then pass that on to the Scouts.

More worms in the can! They put the sign on the bottlle tht says ""FOR THE SCOUTS"" and then pass on the unsollicited funds to the llocal Scout Unit, which has not asked the llocal merchant to colllect for them. This is bad?

Q: How many highlly paid llawyers does it take to sue the merchant to make him stop colllecting the dolllars that he passes on to the Scout unit?

Anyone out there named Lloyd?

To be specific, the Den Chief does not absolutely require "official" training, but it is definitely a good idea. Check with your Council, there is a DC training curriculum, about half a day. Also, there is a good on-line training at www.olc.scouting.org and look to the right column. Den Chief is not necessarily included in the NYLT, but it should be.

My experience is that if the boy completes the District/Council NYLT, he gets the "Trained" strip, but not Troop sponsored training. Hasn't happened for the DC course, which has always been a seperate Saturday morning.

One more particulararity, I guess.

Good Den Chief, better Cubs, more Scouts. Simple equation.

YiS

Show "Bridge Over the River Kwai"...

J-u-s-t k-d-d-i-n-g....

Oh the tangled webs we weave...no that's not right...

Do as I say, not as I do... nope, not quite...

Danged if'n I do and danged if'n I don't... mmmmm, getting closer...

Because I'm the daddy, that's why... mmmm. no.

Is you is or is you ain't my baby?...

I agree we would rather our Scouts earn their way. Sell something of worth, do a service for a price and not go around with their hand out saying please.

However, what do we say when someone points to our United Way connection, or the DE's duty to "fund raise" or even the (shudder) FoS campaign? I know for a fact that many a DE solicits (and that is the correct term) the communiy business leaders. And howbout the Jamboree Troops that enlist "sponsors" to help buy the new equipment and trip tickets? I seem to remember a Troop in '05 that proudly posted the name of a local Pizza Restaurant on their gateway. And the corporate sponsors (who provided the Official Jamboree cars and trucks? Dare I say donation? And tax deduction?) that were in, admiitedly low key, attendance.

District leader came to me and said his company was considering their corporate contributions for the upcoming year. Would we accept a donation toward our CSDC park rental fee? What do you think I said to him?

So the division seems to be between Unit/Youth and District & Council/Adult.

Is that about right?

My Llama. . .

(sings)

The most beautiful sound I ever heard:

My Llama, my Llama, my Llama, my Llama . . .

All the beautiful sounds of the world in a single word . .

My Llama, my Llama my Llama, my Llama . . .

My Llama!

I've just met a ruminant named Llama,

And suddenly that name

Will never be the same

To me.

My Llama!

I've just kissed a south American mountain ruminant named Llama!

And suddenly I've found

How wonderful a sound

Can be!

My Llama!

Say it loud and there's music playing,

Say it soft and it's almost like praying.

My Llama,

I'll never stop saying my Llama!!!!

Vicki has a valid observation. So does BW. And so they may never come to a meeting of the minds.

If I see a Scout that wears a First Class badge, I think " yep, First Class Scout. I earned First Class umpteen years ago". But then I realize that MY First Class is different, not quite the same as his First Class. I learned Morse Code, among other things, he didn't. Both First Class, but different. Who defined the standards to be met? Who certified that the young Scout then and now knows his stuff, and met the standard? National/Irving is / was different, from National/New Brunswick. Different but sort of the same.

One of my WB tickets is the creation of an activity whereby Scouts will do some things and earn a patch for their trouble (Bumper sticker: "WILL WORK FOR COLORFUL SCRAPS OF CLOTH"). In this case, I define the requirements. Someday in the future, if, as I hope, my activity becomes a regular affair of the District, someone else may take over the organization of it. Then he/she may change the requirements to suit the new times (instead of "plan your hike..." maybe "charge your levipad..."?).

A BW notes, the folks that "own" the award define the rquirements to earn it. AND if I may paraphrase Vicki's observation, if the standards of the award are changed (broadened?), the older holders of the award may wonder if THAT award means the same as it DID.

Is my First Class the "same" as the modern Scout's? No. Different requirements. Is it "comparable"? Oh yes, I've little doubt. Why the changes ? Changing times. I have had discussions with son and other Scouts. They don't see the need to learn Morse Code (example). Could they benefit from learning Morse Code? Undoubtedly, but why teach/learn it? not my place to decide that. But we really should note our concerns to National.

Changing times.

Oh btw, anyone TRIED to contact National lately?

YiS

When I was a little younger, "the truck" we refered to held ice cream...

Google "flag carrying belts"

Then, too, they do make duct tape in colors now...

A way out west, they've got a name

For wind and rain and fire.

The rain is Tess the fire's Joe and they call the wind my llama!

My llama! My llama!

They called the wind my llama!

My llama blows the stars around and sets the clouds a-flyin',

My llama makes the andes sound like folks was up there, dyin'...

My llama blow my llama to me, I need my llama beside me....

My llama! My llama!

They call the wind my llama!

Andes is how to peruse good music.(This message has been edited by SSScout)

Thank you Liz, for speaking a good deal of my mind. See the previous thread:

Pledges, Promises and Creeds: On My Honor...

Wearing a uniform is another issue. What is ON the uniform is (was?) the issue in this thread.

I knew a troop that wore the state flag on the sleeve under the USFlag. Had little replicas made up special. Looked good. Official BSA? ummmmmprobably not. Course, then too, I know another Troop orders their Patrol Badges from Canada because they like the look better. No one has called them on that either.

Oh, Welcome to the Forums, Liz...

Well, arguing from the other end, if the BSA is NOT a "RO", what are we doing worrying about the Scout's religiious obeisance? Should not the twelve point be "A Scout is Respectful"? instead of...?

When I teach "flag ettiquette" to Cub Scouts (see Wolf... #2G), the toughest thing is learning to fold the US flag in the triangle. But when they 'get it', boy, are they proud of themselves. For some reason, kids these days aren't as ''manipulative'' as I remember, I sometimes have to actually take their hand and turn it the proper way to get that right triangle. The mantra is "thumb under", "thumb under". The average 7 or 8 or 9 year old tends to let his hands STAY palm up, no matter what, so the folds get messed up, UNTIL they realize they must turn the hand OVER with the folding, starting with the "thumb UNDER" the flag, then flipping the fold over on the edge, thus keeping the triangle the same shape.

My small research showed that the special fold of the USFlag originated in (alledgedly) a Royal navy method of packaging a flag so it would 'pop' open at the top of the haul (see jblake47's post). It is 'traditional', not "official". It is done that way because it can be done that way. The proportions of the USFlag just happen to lend themselves to the success of this method. It is, to my knowledge, the only special folding method for a national flag. I tell my Cubs, if they were to fold the flag of Brazil, or Japan, or Germany, they would fold it with due ceremony and respect but no differently then their mom's table cloth.

" wow, that is sooo neat!!"

Please see http://www.snopes.com/military/flagfold.asp

Ev: Right on, brother!

Now, since we ask the Scout to "do my duty to God", to the best of his ability, what exactly is the Scout required to do? We can observe his skill at knot tying, and we can test his knowledge of aviation and award him a Merit Badge in Aviation. We can number the nights he camps out of doors, we can count the miles he hikes and award him ranks thereby.

How to judge his doing of duty?

Does not our organizational "requirement" of a religious duty require us to be a religious organization?

Howbout that Killebrew, uh?

Okay, so I think we are in agreement about what a "religion" is, but not as to what a "religious organization" is.

We have a group nearby named the Community Interfaith Service Committee. It is made up of representatives from many churches, synagogues, mosques and Meetings. I have done work for it. The CISC has counseling, homeless assistance, teen activities, and other things. Is this a "religious organization"?

By comparison, there are many other groups that do alot of the same good works, but have no religious connections, either in support or purpose. NOT "religious organization"?

Closer to home, I support the American Friends Service Committee. They work in Appalachia and other places to rebuild houses and tutor kids and feed the hungry (among other things!). Since it is based on our desire to serve the Lord by serving others, I would think the AFSC is a "religious Organization" but since it does not seek to get people to worship as we do, it is not a "religion". The AFSC is a legally seperate group.

Habitat for Humanity is not religiously based, but I know lots of churches and Meetings that support it. Does that make HfH a "religious organization"?

How we doin'?

Howbout that Maravich?

Glad I could help. You are always welcome to join us in silent worship.

"Still not the same"

Which is not the same as what?

Howbout them Terrapins?

Eeyep. This is not a "who's on first" situation...

The first day of the week is (in ordinary company, on the usual calender) called "sunday" (named after that bright circle in the sky that provides all that we need). Visit your neighborhood Baptist church and your kids will attend the "Sunday School". If you attend your local Friends' Meeting, ("worship after the manner of Friends"), they will escort your child to the appropriate "Firstday Class". There, they will find out why the Religious Society of Friends will also answer to Quaker. Thus, not honoring the pagan god, "sun".

.

Somewhere along the way, the Church decided to honor the Lord by celebrating worship on the first day of the week instead of the seventh, upon which the Lord "rested". Go figure. You might also check with your Seventh Day Adventist neighbor. They worship on Seventhday (saturday), because they believe the church was wrong in it's declaration umpteen years ago.

Howbout them Astros?

(This message has been edited by SSScout)

A Scout is asked to recite a promise, and be true to it's implications. We ask Scouts to base their lives and actions on a list of adjectives.

How best to show him (or her) the benefit of doing so?

How best to encourage the avoidance of hypocracy?

Ev: Traditionally, Quakers eschewed using the "usual" names for the days of the week (and the usual names of the months, too) because they were named to honor pagan gods (and pagan Roman emporers). Instead, they quite logically numbered the days (First day, Second day, etc.) and numbered the months. So, Not getting too much into the eclesiastical problems the church created in the calendar(we no longer "rest" on the seventh day, but on the first?), suffice to say that the Religious Society of Friends ( a religion), in more formal situations, refers to days by number rather than by name. ALTHOUGH most Friends just accept the names as names, in usual conversation. Therefore, (check your calendar), today is 7th day, 13 ninth month. And tommorrow, 14 ninth month, we will go to Meeting and son will attend his First Day School. To learn about his birth-right faith. So he can accept or reject it. When he figures it out.

"Sun" day = First day.

So why is "september" (latin for 'seven' month?) the ninth month? Another time...

Howbout them Celtics?

Well, Nike is spot on about BSA's situation.

evmori doesn't see things as I do here, and maybe I can't convince him otherwise, however...

If my son's school has a class in "World's Religions", and requires the students to study and be knowledgeable about various faiths (no one in particular), that is not a religious organization.

If my son participates in his First Day School class and learns about his birth-right faith, which he may/maynot accept or reject ultimately, that's a religion.

If he joins a group that asks him to "do my duty to God" but does not define what that duty is (leaving it to the boy to decide that), that is , to my mind, a "religious" organization.

If he joined a group that asked him to "scrub the floor really well", but does not define how the floor should be scrubbed (leaving the methodology to the boy), then that organization is a volunteer cleaning club, not a cleaning company, which must meet gov't standards.

Howbout them Mudhens?

The whole shebang boils down to:

1) the BSA is a "religious" organization but NOT a religion.

2) Folks that join are reminded about this (a)with the not-so-fine print on the application and (b)with conversations with leaders and © the reciting of the Cub Scout Promise and the Scout Promise and the Scout Law and (d) various well publicized court cases and (e) by overly zealous folks that wish to make BSA one kind of "religious" organization rather than another (which the rest of us have to do damage control about).

3)Those that join and participate are, 99.9% self selecting. They participate because they agree with what is proposed and promulgated and said and written. When they don't agree, in my experience, they ask questions and then either find greater agreement or allow for the differences ("BSA isn't really Christian after all?") or say "no thanks" and move on.

We had a wonderful woman, good parent, talented teacher, sign up to help with CSDC. She read thru the Adult Application and talked to me about the DRP. She said they did not teach their kids anything about religion, that they (the parents) weren't about to cloud their kids mind with such mythology. It had never been a question for her when her son aasked to be a Cub in his friends Pack. I replied that was certainly their responsibility, that Scouts weren't about to tell them what to believe. She and her Cub participated that year, but she later told us she had to resign and withdraw from Scouts because she ultimately could not find agreement with the DRP on the application. And that's how it should work. We were sorry to see her and her son go, but there you are. At that point, it is the parents who decide.

4) Scouting attracts folks with questions and folks whose minds are already made up. Our District hosts Troops sponsored by Muslim Mosques, Jewish Synagogues, ultra-Catholic home schooling associations, Volunteer Fire Companies, PTAs, and service clubs like Kiwanis and American Legion. Some overtly REQUIRE a certain type of belief and some do not ask the first question about it. It is, as one Scouter told me at a R/T, "none of our damn business".

5) Certain social mores are active here. In my bus system, you pay the fare and our bus will take you along the route. You can't tell the driver to CHANGE the route, you can only ride the bus from the station to 5th and Main, not Cedar and North. If you want to go to Cedar and North, you either a) get out and walk or b) pay for a taxi or c) find another bus company or d) start your own bus company. Oh, I forgot, You can also petition the Transit service to change the routes and if enough people ask for the change, it could happen. But probably not tomorrow.

Howbout them Cowboys?

The BSA is a religious organization, by definition. But it is NOT a religion (contrary to how some Scouters may treat their activities!). We've been thru that before.

As to the PoA, it IS a requirement that a Cub Scout needs to KNOW the PoA, but it is NOT a requirement to recite it, if it is counter to their religious belief. I may know the tenets of Das Kapital, but that does not mean I agree with or support it. Jehovah's Witnesses, Quakers, some Mennonite adherents, and other religions have qualms about repeating the PoA and back that up with their faith in a deity that requires them to not worship (pledge loyalty to?) a piece of cloth. This does not mean they do not show respect for the symbol of our nation, only that the saying of something they do not agree with ("trustworthy", frinstance, see also Mat 5:33, lJohn 5:21 and Ps 96:5) is not right.

Loyalty to country ("duty") has never correctly been defined as the mere reciting of any loyalty oath but as demonstrated by ones actions (or lack of?).

I have had very little conversation about anyone not reciting the PoA. It is a non-issue in my experience.

Thank you, Andy. It is for all boys who find agreement with Scoutings ideals and program. All food is for all boys, but squash is not for my son. So he says.

Thank you, Merlyn, for making us think, but there is no dancing in this one. Only a welcome lack of dogma and some understanding.

Ditto jet526. Cubs are not included in Scout watercraft activities except as G2SS allows. But Boy Scouts...

Ordinarily, Canoeing has to wait for summer camp. So:

Recruit one or more experienced adults as Canoeing Merit Badge Counselors. Include that in your canoeing program. If the boys have mastered the Canoeing MB, they are ready for medium rivers and ripples. Real white water is another thing again. Canoe rescue practice can be done in the community pool, with advance arrangements. Ask to use the pool way before regular hours and make sure the boats are CLEAN before you enter the pool. (!!measure to assure the boats will fit thru the doors!!)Red Cross does this all the time and other Scout units use the pool in our community thusly. For this I recommend leaving the aluminum boats at home and only bring the ABS boats. Don't bump the tile!

We have a lake nearby that is good for paddling practice, but it is part of the county's water supply, so no swimming allowed (no swamping on purpose!)

As the boys get experience, plan an overnight trip.

It's all down hill er, stream.