SR540Beaver

Darn! I was hoping it was to finally give ME the well deserved recognition I'm due on my 48th birthday! Maybe next year.

Lynda, Thank you for "getting" the concept of allowing boys to fail in a controlled environment. You teach them, you train them and you allow them to make decisions. If they choose to ignore the training and make a bad decision, they get to suffer the consequences and learn the lesson the hard way. It has a whole lot more influence than the book learning. Allowing boys to fail in a controlled environment does not mean allowing harm, danger or sickness to come to them. Obviously an adult steps in if that is going to occur. But when a boy purposely decides to leave his rain gear in the tent at summer camp and allow himself to get wet, let him. He'll eventually get tired of being wet and when he realizes that no one is going to bail him out or feel sorry for him, he will put 2 and 2 together and put his rain gear on. The difference of when/if you step in is if the temps are 95 or 35.

Seattle, On page 6 it is still the wrong approach. Sitting down next to him and explaining to him that as the leader of his patrol, he needed to get the boys moving and get everyone fed was good. Throwing the hotdog in the fire was just vindictive.

Remind me to never camp with Packsaddle. Sheesh, what a stick in the mud!

Good comments flowerchild. Our troop does not provide tents. Many of the boys have their own tents and occasionally will bunk together. We had one boy show up for a campout and found out after we got to camp that he did not bring a tent and just assumed someone would let him bunk with them. He is one of those boys that the rest kind of tolerate and don't really want to bunk with. Someone let him and it worked out OK. We explained to him later that he needs to make those arrangements BEFORE going to camp. I'm sure others do what we do. Especially since we are a new and young troop. This weekend we will be day hiking. But for the "older" boys (been in a year) we expect them to carry a full backpack. We will cook lunch on the trail. Even though it isn't a true backpacking trip, it is an introduction to backpacking. What we are doing is having the boys bring their backpacks packed to tonight's troop meeting. That way, we can see what they plan on bringing and make suggestions of what they really need and what they can cut out. This lessens the problem of someone coming to camp unprepared and allows them to learn what to do in somewhat of a classroom environment. Now, if they show up to the meeting without raingear and are told they need to pack some and then show up at camp without it, they will probably be allowed to get wet for a while until someone bails them out. Our other purpose behind this is that our boys are bringing far too much to camp. We had one boy show up with a cabin tent big enough for 6 people, an air bed on a metal frame and two huge plastic containers on wheels.......for an overnighter. For this campout, they are limited to their backpack and a tent that doesn't have to fit in the pack. They really can get along without the kitchen sink, they just don't know it yet.

My mom always told me to put on clean underwear in case I was in an accident! As long as you do that, I figure you are covered on being prepared.

Dug, We are one of those new troops. We'll be a year old the middle of June. We started with all 11 and 12 year old boys who had crossed over to another troop the previous February. My son was elected as SPL on 02/01 when he was still 11 years old. He turned 12 on 02/26. On 06/01, he will have completed the 4 months in a POR for his Star rank. His term won't be over until 08/01. He has half his service hours in and will have the 4 Eagle required MB's and 2 elective MB's completed by the time summer camp is over in mid-June. He is active, having never missed a single campout and only missed a couple of meetings for some school meetings it was important for him to attend. Our SM wrongly told the boys in the troop that they shouldn't expect to waltz to the upper ranks after getting 1st class. He practically guaranteed them that it will be the end off this year before any of them achieve this rank at the earliest. My son will be ready by the end of June. I know that you question how "good" of an SPL he can be at 12 years old. Pretty darn good. My son is the first up and the last down at camp. He has an agenda for each troop meeting and runs it. He and the SM together conduct the COH's. Could a 15 or 16 year old boy do better? Probably. Does that negate the job my son does at 12? No. He knows the requirements and is doing them to the best of his ability and experience. Do we offer suggestions? Of course we do. We would if he was 16 too since our job is to train the leaders. Is my son exceptional. Well, I like to think he is since I'm his dad......but I also see him as a normal boy. Is he more mature than many of his peers? Yes. Are his peers incapable of doing the same job he does? I don't think so. Should our SM try to hold my son's advancement to Star until the end of the year when he has fulfilled all of the requirements satisfactorily by June, we will cross that bridge when we come to it. Nowhere does the requirements say that you have to satisfy the SM with your character or maturity unless you lump that into Scout Spirit. Since our SM always praises my son on his SS, I see no reason why he should not advance. If he decides to work hard and fulfills two 6 month POR's, does his service hours, does his MB's and shows scout spirit over the next year and completes an Eagle project, there is no reason he can't make Eagle at 14. I won't push him, it has to be his decision and his work. But I'll be darned if I'll let some SM put artificial limits on his advancement just because he thinks no one should Eagle before 16.....which our Eagle SM does in fact think.

There is no requirement to have a ceremony. Most people like to do it because they enjoy the recognition and enjoy the sense of brotherhood that developed thru WB. Another resaon is because your fellow WB'ers want to congratulate you. That being said, our coucil will do whatever you want, but they prefer that the beading be done at a roundtable, or a course like IOLS in order to adverise the value of WB to prospective participants. But, you can have it where, when and how you want.....even if that means mail them to me.

Whoa! For all of those who took exception to my "failing in a controlled environment" post, let's review. What do you not understand about the word controlled? We have back up plans like additional raingear. However, if you'll remember, I said the boy WITH the best rain gear walked around soaked all the time. He HAD rain gear. He decided not to wear it. Now, we could have taken a page from Ed's book and made him wear it because it was what we wanted him to do OR we could let him learn that walking around wet for days is miserable and decide on his own.....which he does now......most of the time. The dining fly? They had one. They decided not to put it up. After a few days of rain, they saw the value in it. It was summer camp, they didn't have to cook. It was mainly for sun or rain protection and to have a dry table to sit at. Again, it wasn't a matter of letting them fail, sucking it up and hoping they would come back to troop meetings after camp was over. They had it available to them the whole time and every time they ran for the adult fly when the rain would start, we would ask them to leave our area and reminded them that their fly was nice and dry in the trailer any time they wanted to get it out. They've never failed to set it up since then. The kid with the wet canvas shoes? One of the female committee members who came to summer camp drove into town to Wal-mart and bought many of the boys dry socks and cheap tennis shoes. That is what is called failing in a controlled environment. If safety or health becomes a concern, then we step in immediately. If not, we let them suffer the consequences of THEIR actions and learn from it. We could MAKE them do what we want and have them continue to resist or we can let them do it their way and discover that the way they were taught actually is better and make a choice to do it the right way. This isn't rocket science.

I'll take a stab at it with a rusty butter knife since I don't have any resources sitting in front of me. In a perfect world, a charter organization either decides they want to charter a boy scout troop and contact the council or the DE has made a call on them and stirred their interest. The first step is for the charter to recruit a charter organization rep. The COR recruits a committee chair. The CC recruits committee members and the scoutmaster. The scoutmaster recruits assistant scoutmasters. At the troop level, the CC is "in charge" overall and "answers" to the charter and COR. The SM works with the CC, but on paper, the CC is who problems of any nature are brought to ultimately within the troop.....even if the problem is the SM. The SM runs the boy side of things and the CC runs the business side of things and doing everything possible to accomodate the boys want out of the program. Bob White ccan certainly mop up any spills I've made here.

Dug: What lessons would be taught if scouts were allowed to skip out of responsabilities because they dont feel like doing them? Ever here of letting them fail in a controlled environment? Trial and error. I assume you were like most kids and thought you knew a lot more than the adults and just had to try something yourself to prove how smart you were. We discussed with the boys last year what they needed to bring to summer camp. Boots, preferably water proof. Rain gear. We arrived in camp on Sunday and shortly after getting camp set up, it started raining. It rained more on than off until Thursday afternoon. We had one patrol that was too lazy to set up their dining fly until around Tuesday when they were tired of huddling in their tents and the latrine. We had one kid who brought one pair of slip on canvas shoes and no socks. We had one kid who had the best rain gear in camp and decided to walk around soaked all the time. Since then, they've never failed to set their dining fly up immediately after setting up a lantern to see by. The kid with canvas shoes wears his boots and the kid with the great rain gear wears it....sometimes. Why? Because they tried it their way and got tired of being miserable and decided that maybe all of those lessons about camping that the silverbacks gave were worthwhile. We could have made them do what we wanted and they would still be resisting to this day. Instead, we let them find out on their own why there was value in our suggestions.

Biscuits and gravy.....mmmmmm, good eating! Chicken livers....great catfish bait if you leave them out in the sun for a few hours.

msnowman, You are a good man! God bless you!

Ed, You introduced the SPL and gear unloading earlier in the thread when you said, "OK. So when we get to camp telling the SPL to "get the gear unloaded" isn't the way to go? I should have a 10 minute conversation with the SPL so he understands why the gear needs to be unloaded? That way he will feel part of the decision making process? Do I have this correct?" I wasn'tsure what it had to do with ethics either when you brought it up.

By-laws are often like liver. The more you chew, the more it expands and the harder it is to swallow. My apologies to those strange folks who actually like eating liver.

Honestly Ed! What is with the switching gears thing? You have not been arguing for teaching the boy, planning and then leaving him in charge without interference to make good decisions. You've been arguing in favor of issuing orders and making a boy do what you want because it is the right thing to do. Having that discussion on the ride wouldn't be the short sweet direct approach you like so much.

Ed, I don't know, maybe you are using the words told and ordered interchangeably with ask and explain. While all of those words indicate some form of communication, they are not the same. Our job is to teach boys to help them make ethical decisions. A decision is a decision. A choice. Telling someone what to do or issuing and order negates a choice or decision on their part. They are learning. We are teaching. This isn't boot camp where we yell and tell them to get off their lazy can and mop the floor or drop and give me 50. That is indeed a method.....of the military whose mission is far different than ours. It isn't a method of scouting.

Come on Ed, this isn't hard. First off, assuming that the boy didn't know what his assigned duty was, the PL "asks" him to perform a task. If he refuses, the PL takes it to the SPL. If he still refuses, the SPL takes it to the SM. They have an SM conference to discuss how his actions are living up to the scout oath and law. If the boy is belligerent, becomes a distraction to the program or a harm to himself or others he ccould be sent home. The next step would be to have a BOR with the troop committee. You've been around long enough that you know how it works.

Hmmmm, maybe our troop is strange or something? By the second campout a new boy goes on, he knows that the first thing we do is unload and set up camp. Patrol equipment first, individual equipment second. The PLC even has a duty roster made a week before camp of who will be responsible for what while unloading and setting up.

Fuzzy, You left out fire ants!

fgoodwin, What a heathen!!!

There is a rumor (and I don't know if it is true or not) about a large local troop where the SM rarely camps with the troop. The have a large program with many ASM's who have specific roles in the troop. The SM runs the overall program while the ASM's run the various aspects of it. I don't know if it is age, work or health that "prevents" the SM from camping, but evidently it works for them.

Sad to say, 48 next week. I agree, kids today can have many of the same experiences we had. But they do have many alternatives and distractions that we didn't. While TV was popular when I was a kid, you had NBC, ABC and CBS and the local stations quit broadcasting from midnight to 6:00 AM. No 5 or 6 channels of Nick or Cartoon Network or the Disney channel. My 12 year old son may spend an hour or two playing a game on the PC, but he'll turn right around and spend an hour or two shooting baskets too. If there is camping, boating, swimming, etc available, he is the first in line. He enjoys scouting. His 13 year old buddy around the corner I mentioned has absolutely no interest in scouting. He "thinks" he camps too, but it is in a big 5th wheel trailer with a game console, color TV, VCR, microwave, air conditioner and shower. When he does venture out of the trailer at "camp", it is to ride in their big power boat in his color coordinated Nike swim suit, visor and flip flops. Yep, it IS all in how you are raised regardless of the times.

fgoodwin, Thank you for an excellent article. I grew up in that generation that spent our days outdoors. Back then, moms stayed home and few if any houses had air conditioners. TV had 3 channels and the afternoon was filled with Soap operas. Yuck! WE played army, cops and robbers, cowboys and indians, lived on our bicycles, dug fox holes in our backyards, went to the corner store for candy and balloons, had water balloon fights, shot off saved fireworks, started secret clubs and bought ice cream from the ice cream truck every chance we got. We got dirty. I recently talked with a neighbor of mine and we were comparing our childhoods with our son's. Mine likes the outdoors and would prefer to play outside, but he likes his "screen" time too. The other guy's wife is over protective of their son. He won't go outside if it is too hot or too cold. He won't go outside because he might get west nile from a misquito. He wears very trendy clothes and everything is matched sets. His mom makes him carry a two way radio with him when he does leave the house and she calls him every 10 minutes to make sure he is still alive. He can't go to our neighborhood association pool by himself even though we have trained and paid lifeguards on duty. We have become our own worst enemy and our children will suffer because of it.

We are pretty much in the same boat as Schleining. We started a new troop with 11 year olds last June. Four of them have made 1st class so far and we have a few others still at Tenderfoot or 2nd class. We just added 6 new boys and formed a NSP. Over the past year, we have really struggled with camp cooking. We get the same sniffing of the adult food and complaints about how good we eat. We go thru the same lessons of, "you can eat this way too if you want". They have been taught. While I realize they are 12, many of them are a very immature 12 and playing is far more important to them than cooking. They are happy with Raman until they finish it and are still hungry. We kept waiting for reality to sink in along with the instruction and the light to click on that they actually CAN cook and they CAN cook good food. So far, it is still touch and go. Several of them think they can speed up the cooking process by turning up the stove full blast. Of course, that results in food that is burned on the outside and raw on the inside which is not good when you are talking sausage instead of carrots. The boys also tried to get away with meals consisting of pop tart and such. Since they are under our care and guidance and the parents do have an expectation of us bringing home healthy kids, we have had to go the route of others here. The boys have to adhere to the handbooks guidance on nutritious meals and they have to get the menu approved by the SM or an ASM. They do have to cook what is on their menu. We've had them buy the food that was on their approved menu only to have them decide once they got to camp that they would only cook about a third of the menu items. I've started some cooking demos at meetings and am urging them to find well balanced recipes that they WILL eat and that they try out cooking themselves at home. We are hoping to have a cook off campout in the near future. Scouting is supposed to be fun. We want them to understand that cooking can actually be creative and fun and that they get to eat the delicious reward of their efforts. So far, swinging sticks and falling in creeks holds more appeal to them. Once we get this group "trained", we are hoping we can be less hands off and the "older" boys will take over in inspiring the new scouts.