skeptic

Don't they have a device that jams signals? I read about some restaurants that were using them. That would be an easy fix I would think.

DesertRat;

I got back into the program in Spring, 1976 and was quite surprised at the materials I found. Fortunately, I was in the Topanga District of the old GWC in the San Fernando Valley, and did my introductory training with the infamous Patrones, who were old school for sure. When I went to Philmont for commissioner training in 77, the talk was all about the loss of traditional scouters and the start of the change back to "real" scouting. But I was really glad to see the new handbook that year. I remember getting a free copy that spring given by a scouter there in the Valley to all the active leaders and commissioners. Still have that copy in my collection with the dedication sheet inside.

Lisabob;

While it is still nascent, and a long shot, I will not be overly surprised if the drive for a rewritten constitution comes to fruition. Even though so many no longer vote, they might still choose to completely redo the whole governing structure.

A few other things that could happen, at least on paper, would be limiting pay to all politicians, taking away perks such as cars and per diem for those earning over a certain amount, and some kind of control on judges that make politically skewed decisions against the will of the people and not based on solid law. As long as the proposition apparatus is in effect, almost anything that takes a club to the so called "governing body" will pass, as people are simply tired of the "business as usual" attitude.

I am far more fortunate than many, mostly due to being raised by parents and grand parents that lived through the depression and WWII. Our condo is paid for, and I have a small house in the desert as well. But the next few generations are going to have to relive much of what my parents and grandparents did I am afraid. On the other hand, it could be a major factor in bringing families back together, due to necessity. Time will tell.

We brought it on ourselves. Hardly anybody is willing to look past the next moment in time and make needed adjustments for the future. I have it, let me spend it. In today's recession, those who have been prudent are okay, though perhaps a bit leaner; most have problems due to their poor decisions and blinders.

Our state governments are just the same, or worse. In California, Grey Davis spent the surplus rather than save it for a rainy day. Now the monsoon has hit and guess what, the floods are inundating the state economy and its population. Still, the idiots in the capitol are playing "politics". And in the last election, the turnout was so low that it was almost non-existent in some areas. Either people just choose not to be involved, the "someone else will take care of it" syndrome, they somehow feel "not voting" is a slap at the political machines, or they simply do not understand and so don't. Yet, most of the most upset are in the "did not vote" category.

Economically, California has already dropped into the ocean. I am simply waiting for it to start drifting towards Asia, since they own half the debt.

We keep waiting for the "person on a white horse". But we control the stable, and we need to MUCK IT OUT!

Actually Eamonn, that is exactly what happened here when the infamous "Inner City" program was put in place that pretty much put the "outing" out on the periphery of the program. From what I have seen in historical material, that is when they lost the most "old time" scouters; and many never returned even when much was put back in place, either because they "were" old to start with and disappeared, or they were so upset they simply chose not to. And, I think that would happen again if they decided to go that far overboard.

Anyone who looks at the successful troops can immediately see that they are active "outdoors". While many are true high adventure groups, many simply base camp and do fun activities from there. But, they are out and doing things in the natural environment and away from the worst of civilization. And the boys love it, or they leave.

Frankly, the idea that we can keep them all is silly. Some scout age boys simply will never take to the outdoors, for who knows why for sure.

Just my personal observation.

"A Scout is Hungry"; he eats when he can, all he can, and whatever he can.

The 13th point dates at least back to the 50's, and likely much farther.

Merlyn:

So, you have made our point; "YOU CANNOT prove God exists, but you also CANNOT PROVE God does not exist". Perhaps he/she is simply out in the universe riding the unicorn.

Once again, we need to reintroduce "Mr. Common Sense". What makes so many of us think that we are qualified just because we did it, or read about it, or took a beginning course, then participated with a certified group leader? I took "climb on safety" at camp a couple of years ago. So, technically I should be able to lead a climbing outing; right? Wrong! I may know the basic precautions, but I am not really qualified and would not do it unless I had someone truly certified to do the real experience. I have been swimming all my life and earned the life-saving merit badge. Have taken CPR numerous times, as well as first aide courses. In an emergency I know more or less what to do. Am I qualified to teach swimming or life-saving or first aide and CPR; not really, though I could assist. Point being, we need to not let that "little bit of knowledge" cloud our "common sense" judgment as to our qualifications for many activities. Safety is, or should be the absolute qualifier. If that means not going because we have not found the truly able person to do it, then so be it.

JMO

The percentages have been closer to these reported now for a while from my perception. They just had not been accurately quoted, either due to lack of awareness or because 1-2 percent sounds better. It is higher, I feel, because there is more emphasis put on it in many troops, and also it still has a reputation of high achievement and capability.

In some respects, many of today's Eagles may very well be more rounded and of higher achievement than those of the pre project days. The project is overall a big challenge. Scouting skills on the other hand likely are less strong in many cases due to the current programs reduced emphasis on not only learning them, but also retaining them. Also, for those that do get Eagle, there is likely a higher percentage of questionable achievers due to "Eagle factories", poor oversight in some units, and too much parental involvement in some cases.

One of the reasons fewer scouts likely earned Eagle in the earlier time was that achieving First Class was considered to be the main goal. Remember, they did not even register boys as Star, Life, or Eagle until after WWII or during perhaps. They were listed as 1st Class with merit badges.

I have had the privilege to set on quite a few boards, and most have been well qualified, and a few either barely met the minimum and a few were so over the top that you wondered if they ever were a kid.

Possibly the best reflection will be what becomes of the more recent generation of Eagles, and whether the ideals, skills, and pride will be something which they wish to perpetuate in the future.

JMHO

Are we seriously missing a major part of this? In our council, if it even gets to them, they lean over backwards to avoid any friction or unhappy scouts or parents. Very odd indeed, based of course on the the info' which we have been given.

How things change with the times. As Eamonn says, we go looking for issues where there like are none. We are a society that glorifies certain elements of physical features and considers sexuality okay in the public, yet we are prudes in so many ways. Our schools no longer require showers after P.E. in the schools, as public showering "might" cause someone embarrassment or occasional teasing or taunting. Many gyms and pools have separate areas for youth and adults for similar reasons; or completely separate times. Most of us over 40 or 50 grew up okay while sharing the locker rooms and even occasionally skinny-dipping. There are photos of scouts swimming in the teens that "show nothing"; but they are obviously in the buff. Keep it out of common view and use common sense. This should apply to just about anything that could pertain to personal privacy. It only becomes an issue if you make it one somehow.

Thinly Read: Earning Eagle Scout rank says much

Submitted by SHNS on Wed, 06/03/2009 - 12:51.

* By BEN GRABOW, Scripps Howard News Service

* lifestyle

One way or another, people eventually find out you used to be a Boy Scout.

Maybe you show a preternatural ability for complicated knots. Or maybe you can't resist the urge to Do a Good Turn Daily. But once people find out, if they have any knowledge of the scouting enterprise, they'll always have the same question. Everyone wants to know if you earned your Eagle.

It's an oft-touted statistic that only 2 percent of all Boy Scouts make it to the Eagle rank. It's the pinnacle of the scouting world and it holds a certain cachet for everyone else, from the overall community to the corporate workplace.

This prestige may seem strange to some and downright surprising to those who were Scouts themselves. Especially those, like me, whose scouting experience involved finding new and exciting ways to set fire to ourselves and to others.

Using propellants from bug spray to powdered coffee creamer (you read that right, and don't try it at home), my less-advancement-minded friends and I made weekly Scout meetings a trial for our long-suffering adult supervisors.

Though many of these friends gradually drifted away, I stuck with scouting. I stuck with it for the backpacking, the caving and various other pursuits unavailable to the average suburbanite.

I stuck with it all the way through high school, earning ranks and Merit Badges in spite of myself. But the Eagle rank required more than just showing up.

In addition to a set amount of Merit Badges, the Eagle requires an Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project. This is something you do to better your community, from painting a building to organizing a fund-raiser. It's a volunteer effort requiring a team of other Scouts and a great deal of time.

According to one scouting parent, there are three things that keep an average teen-ager from his Eagle Project -- cash, cars and (ahem) chicks. The Eagle must be earned before a Scout's 18th birthday. And, at 17, a good job, access to a vehicle and a steady girlfriend hold far more sway than another patch on a uniform you'd never wear in public.

In that way, my story is similar to those of all other Scouts who got right up to it and never earned the Eagle. By the summer that I was 17, I was more interested in dating than painting an outbuilding.

But 10 years since that summer, I think I understand the value of that final patch.

To earn your Eagle requires planning, some sacrifice of your free time and, above all else, commitment. At 17 (or younger), you have to commit a significant amount of time and effort to one thing that is not a car, a job or a girl.

There are not many teen-age boys who are willing to do this. These days, there are not many grown men who are willing to do this. I myself didn't get around to this level of maturity until my mid-20s.

To earn your Eagle is to show your community, your family or even a prospective employer that, as a teen-ager, you were already prepared to make a serious commitment to your future.

One way or another, people will find out you were a Boy Scout. And for those 2 percent, it means more than a knack with knots.

(Ben Grabow writes for the young, the urban and the easily amused. Contact him at thinlyread(at)gmail.com.)

(Distributed by Scripps Howard News Service, http://www.scrippsnews.com)

Interesting last comment; it seems someone took not at Tahquitz from Long Beach Area Council. They are offering Venture specific program at their camp, along with an already very advanced high adventure program, horses, and COPE. Camp is more laid back, and seems to have a strong draw for older scouts due to looser structure and more opportunity.

Kind of odd; I had just composed the following for a possible letter to the editor locally after having a parent hint that his committed older scout may not go to camp because he may not have enough to do and some friends dropped out that have been going since we planned it. Every year it has gotten harder to get any real commitment on many things. And it is not just in the troop.

Perhaps a spin off, or just related?

"What has become of commitment, the giving of our word that we will do something, or participate in an activity? Working within a youth organization, or any other type of group that plans things based on participation and schedules accordingly, has become a best guesstimate endeavor.

How are we to adequately plan anything if the numbers change constantly, or when the people committed to bringing material or helping with transportation suddenly have something come up that is more important, or seems more interesting or enjoyable? What are we teaching our children, when we adults seem to feel little or no responsibility to follow through with our commitments?

There are always going to be legitimate reasons for something to change that will make us unable follow through on our participation in an event. But, most of the time, it seems to simply be that we are no longer interested due to that something better that has come along.

It appears to me that this is just one more example of the me first attitude in todays society. There was a time when our word meant something. Too often now, that no longer appears to be the case."

Don't know; would swear I did it right; but it worked later. As one of our locals says; "I'm having an attack of 'old-timer's disease".

Thanks Kudu; that is the link. Gives a bit of info anyway; will be interesting to see the whole thing.

I tried to get into the OA restricted area with the admonition, and it says I am unauthorized. What is wrong? I double checked the spelling. Thanks.

I reviewed a link from a Scouts-L posting that gives an introduction to the new book. Like a dummy, I forgot to save the link, and I deleted it from my email. Maybe someone here saw it and was brighter. It was kind of interesting; included an index, and a few of the pages, as well as photos of the cover and so on.

Keeping my fingers crossed someone has it.

"everyone "should get a shot at that.""

Is he carrying the shotgun??

"Is it possible that SOME parents have completely out of the box unrealistic expectations?"

Yes!!!!!!!!!

In 1958, I had to pass the California Constitution test to graduate 8th grade. Most of us in scouts used it as the basis for the Nation merit badge at the same time. The test was very intensive, as some on this board may remember.

In high school, we had social science and history as separate classes. In social science we studied civics type of things for one, including voting importance, poly sci, geography, and so on. We also spent an entire quarter on income tax preparation in that class in my senior year; we were given raw data with which to prepare a long form then in use. We also studied banking issues and simple budgeting. Four years of history, four of social studies, 4 of math, 4 of P.E. (and you had to actually perform and deal with taking a public shower); 7 periods total every year. Campus was closed, and parents had to have a really valid reason to take you out of school; and when they did, you were not only responsible to catch up, but often were assigned a special report if the reason was some kind of trip. That was back when California was almost the best system in the country of course. It also was before personal responsibility was held in high esteem, and "honor" actually meant something. Ah, the good old days.

Or you could simply review all the old "Jaywalking" tapes.

Thanks for the clarification Eamonn. The "do my best" part is always part of my intro to a new scout and my expectations. I try to make it clear that they ultimately are their own judge of how well they live up to the various components of the Scouting guidelines. My observations and comments will be guided by how well I feel they may be doing based on what I have grown to understand about them, and they will become greater as they advance and grow in the Scouting program. The back of our troop T says "Live the Twelve", and they are spread throughout the landscape depicted as the coast of Ventura. The same phrase is atop our blackboard in block letters, soon to be replaced with a carved wood version they all have worked on to go above the board. With luck, they occasionally take that personal measure.

Last night our council had its annual Eagle Recognition dinner, and we had the privilege of having Alvin Townley as the key-note speaker. He really connected with the audience, and is extremely friendly and focused. Our council arranged to have every attendee receive a free copy of his new book (do not know, but probably taken from the budget for the event), and he patiently signed every one that requested it. I was able to visit a few minutes afterward with him, and felt he is truly attempting to highlight the best things about scouting, rather than spotlight the few things that make the movement so controversial. I look forward to his continued authorship of works that advance that goal.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

Embarrassing story from years back. We went on a training hike in the San Gabriel Mountains. We went in near Wrightwood, and our goal was to hike to the head water area of the San Gabriel River. As we prepared to leave, we dutifully spread our topo map on the hood of one of the vehicles to double check the route. It took us two or three minutes to realize our error; and it was a couple of the scouts who pointed it out as we "experienced leaders" scratched our heads trying to figure out why nothing looked quite right. Looking back, all I can say is duhhhhhhh! At least having an unseen nail in a table top makes more sense.