skeptic

Merlyn:

You are now doing what you so often accuse others of doing. Find anything that can prove that I ever made such a statement or comment about schools and atheists. While I may think the move does more harm than good, it is the legal ruling and therefore applicable. It was not applicable when some schools, with the backing of your favorite organization, were not given equal access to the use; and that too was brought to a legal ruling that must be met, even though some think it unfair for some reason.

But, as has been noted numerous times; you have no desire to EVER admit an error, or to accept that sometimes things take time to come to conclusions acceptable to all, even the "terribly majority".

Blather on now.

Meanwhile, if certain individuals or groups would simply let the internal, albeit, slow, process work its way out, you might finally see an acceptable solution. Confrontation too often simply causes stagnation.

But, no matter what happens, there will be someone who is not happy, or cannot live with having to see something they do not agree with or like.

Yes, let's end the charade. Just because they are owned by the same larger group, does not make them equal. That would be like trying to say that the disparate arms of a multi-national firm, each with its own operating program and structure, are all equally responsible for whatever one of the other branches does.

As pointed out by someone else, this is simply a continuing political issue that chooses to ruin good programs for the benefit of almost no one, because they have "undue power" based on PC idiocy.

So, let's see how long this one continues with the regurgitation of the same tripe over and over.

Have fun.

Keep hoping for a letter or some contact. I updated everything, but I am still in limbo. It is a bit disconcerting, in that I applied in September last year. Guess not playing on the regional and National stages may be a drawback. Oh well; still seem to be openings in some of the areas in which I would like to volunteer. Just would like to know, so I can make plans going forward.

Added verification of West's presence. Page 31 of the book noted:

........................................

"The last speaker on the program, and to us the most inspiring, was James E. West, our National Chief Scout Executive. He declared that Scouting was a great factor in developing fine citizenship and said that America was still in need of pioneers---in need of boys and young men of vision and ideals." ..............................

There are also a couple of black and white photos with Mr. West in them, one of them as speaker, and the other as one of a group of notables.

...............................

Also, in the back of the book is a list of all the scouts and leaders; and Willard Adams is listed as a leader of group 3 from the Eastern Area of Idaho, the town of Rigby.(This message has been edited by skeptic)

Around 800 scouts and leaders hiked various parts of the Oregon Trail through 15 states to a celebration at "Independence Rock", Wyoming in the summer of 1930 to celebrate the centennial of the Oregon Trail. Perhaps Mr. West attended the 3 day event noted below.

From the book BOY SCOUTS and the OREGON TRAIL which I have in my personal collection.

"COVERED WAGON CENTENNIAL"

"A Proclamation; by the Governor of Wyoming"

Now near at hand is the significant celebration planned at "Independence Rock" upon July 3, 4, and 5, 1930, as an outstanding feature of the nation-wide observance of the Covered Wagon Centennial.

...................................

The young manhood of America has always received inspiration from the romantic figures of those having part in the historic exploits attending the conquest and development of our western country. It is therefore fitting that the Boy Scouts of America should heed the call and join heartily in the celebration of this year............

Therefore, I, Frank C. Emerson, Governor of Wyoming, believing many things combine to make this event at the time of our great national holiday of outstanding significance, call upon our people to give attention to the celebration of the "Covered Wagon Centennial and the National Boy Scout Rendezvous" at Independence Rock ............

In Witness Whereof, I have hereunto set my hand thise 23rd day of June, A.D. 1930.

Frank C. Emerson, Governor(This message has been edited by skeptic)

Since they have no sense, they pay them big bucks. That being the case, why do they not show the sense the "large amount of cents" should generate? Oh, that's right; common sense is in hiding.

Buffalo Skipper: It specifically says on the ribbon or the knot. So, palms may, and likely should be, worn on the knot, just like the little devices for various programs of training. Of course there should only be proper colors, dependent on the level of youth attainment, and the minimum amount as well; that is to say not 3 bronze when a silver is correct. Also in rare cases it would not be possible to wear those representative, due to space on the knot. Three is probably the most that will fit without excessive overlap. JMPInterp

Another related thing to "pre existing" is family history. How many insurers either will not cover, or charge greater fees if you have a history of any number of things, such heart problems, diabetes, or cancer? All of these things are somewhere in my family's history, most directly in line with me. Yet, so far, I have not been unfortunate as to have them. The cholesterol thing though raised its head years ago. If I did not have V.A., I would have been in serious "choice" land. If I had family dependent on me, then it would really have been a problem. Once I lost my insurance after being downsized, due to yearly exorbitant increases, I had no where to go, as I was (am) under-employed. So, the government plan was my salvation; but it has many drawbacks, and as I get older it concerns me a bit. Now, I also have Medicare, but it is not free by any means.

From my perspective, any type of tort reform should include some kind of limit on the actual penalty amount. Part of the problem is with ridiculous jury decisions. Even in the most severe cases, more than a few million dollars, even in today's money, is enough or more. So, when they tack on an extra $50-$100 million or more, it simply keeps rates for coverage way too high. And in a large percentage of cases, even a million is over-kill. There need to be penalties, but only high enough to cover the reality of the injury, and to make the parties responsible adopt changes to avoid additional similar awards; but not so high as to bankrupt them, or increase every one's cost through inflated rates. Of course, they also would need to include severe penalties for "frivolous" suits.

Meanwhile: Beck, Limbaugh,and Hannity nominated for the Pulitzer prize for their in depth, accurate reporting related to anything remotely connected to Barack Obama. Bill O'Reilly is upset, and Limbaugh explodes while trying to pat himself on the back.

OA sashes must be made of the same type of shrinking material.

Interestingly enough, a neckerchief from my youth fits better than modern ones, though my original OA one does not.

Then there is that old uniform shirt, and my Air Force uniform. Oh well; maybe someone can invent an auto enlarger for such things.

Eamonn; Surely you do not think a knife stored with other emergency items in a vehicle is the same as carrying it on the school grounds. There is where the stupidity arises. As pointed out, the vehicle itself is more of a weapon, and other items within the car also are more dangerous if the intent is there. But the real issue is the severity of the whole thing, considering his record.

JMO

http://www.wten.com/global/story.asp?s=11283345&ClientType=Printable

What is the matter with these people. Oh, that's right, "Common Sense" no longer applies.

Welcome Mr. Leroy, to that which you deny, nor comprehend. I am all those things, and more:

ELOHIM,EL SHADDAI,ADONAI,JEHOVAH,JUDGE,EL-OLAM "Everlasting God", 'Attiq Yomin "Ancient of Days", FATHER, THE FIRST AND LAST,

THEOS "God", JESUS, CHRIST, THE GREAT I AM."

But I never said that was a belief system! So I could not have believed it! You must understand!

Ed;

You said "you might not agree with mine but that makes neither incorrect".

So just leave it at that, and quit butting the rock wall; please.

While most realize that pointing something out to Merlyn is pretty much useless, I will anyway.

In every science you have a few really odd "experts", based on having gotten a degree anyway, with whom few others will ever agree because these "degreed experts" insist on completely unrelated or unproven "facts" they have invented or are the only ones who seem to see. They pretty much get ignored by anyone who is truly an expert in the field and do accept the basic building blocks within their field. And these generally acknowledged "kooks" within the field are often paraded by others outside the field to support their own uniformed or illogical premises.

In Theology there are a few more of these "experts" perhaps, but that is likely because the entire study is so much more ephemeral and requires intellectual ideas some just cannot fathom. The one thing that all the Theologians of any stature likely agree on is that there is "something greater than ourselves". And that is where all the permutations of study jump off. What is it? Is it multi-faceted? Is it in control? How will we "know"? These all will cause disagreements, and even have too often caused wars and individual violence, usually when extremists gain too much leverage. In the end, most of the far flung examiners of the "spiritual" within us and the world will also admit that at some point we will finally "see". What will happen then becomes another discussion of "infinite possibilities". And, most would say that even "atheists" will reach that point. What their reaction will be, or their final status will be (if there is a finality) who knows? Surely it would be interesting to be the proverbial "fly on the wall" at that point in time.

It is really important that the SM take his part seriously and disallow any seriously challenged scouts in regard to "Scout Spirit". Like all other elements of the position, he/she needs to do what is needed, no matter what the reservations from an adult concern of dealing with parents who may make them uncomfortable.

As far as the election itself goes, that too needs to have every effort made to make it very clear as to how voting works. Since each scout can vote as many times as there are candidates, then all can be elected, and are in a large percentage of troops. But they also can cast all their votes for one or two, or for only one, or vote only for one or two period, even if 5, say, could be cast. It is up to them. Many are not clear on the vote for "x" number element, or the idea they can split votes. Today of course, if the format is understood, the likely-hood is that all will be elected; not like years back when there were limits as to how many were even eligible and how many eligible could be elected, all based on troop membership totals and eligible totals.

Good luck with the election.

Others have noted the general fees, and mentioned incidentals. But, in regard to Cherry Valley, it may simply be they could not get into the camp for a weekend activity. On the website of the council that owns the camp, they mention $155 for a number of 2009 weekend camp activities. What that includes is not mentioned. If it includes the transportation to and from from Long Beach or San Pedro, as well as food and tentage, it is a good price; but likely filled up quickly too. Their week long camp, just like Emerald Bay, is booked two years out, and now exceeds $500 per week (includes the boat).

So, if your leaders determined they could not get into Cherry Valley, then they may have decided to work it out independently. That would mean cost of the boat to and from, camp fees, and food costs, along with incidental related costs. $150 very likely could be reasonable with those things in mind. But you would need to discuss it all with your leaders.

On occasion, ideas come up that seem great, but they are based on outdated information. Once the info is updated, things can sometimes be dramatically different, especially if info is more than a few years old.

Good luck.

While I can pretty much shrug on the politics forum about some of the comments and attitude, it really bothers me how often we are seeing similar attitude and rudeness on the other forums. Most recently, see the connected discussions, now turned into something truly less than scout like in my opinion, regarding uniforming at boards of review.

Maybe I really am out of it. But, if we have these kinds of responses to something such as this, how do we really respond to things far more serious? And, how much of this apparent attitude get shown to the scouts? A few individuals seem to really get a grip.

"added]

I think we also have to remember that we would be surprised by the comments the kids get from other kids about the uniform. And they're not goin' to be the same as the comments adults give adults that Eagle92 reported."

Beavah; Another opportunity for personal growth. Overcoming peer pressure is something we should be trying to help scouts with. In some respects, wearing a uniform with pride, even in front of peers, is an act of bravery. It generally becomes less of a problem as a scout matures, in my observation. And, there is more respect for scouting in the youth than we might believe. Like anything else in our society, we tend to equate the foolishness of a few with the attitude of the many. A great example of this was brought to me by one of my past Eagle scouts in his senior year in high school. After his name appeared in the paper, along with his photo, he told me that he was approached by numerous classmates congratulating him, and discovered that quite a few mentioned they were scouts, or even Eagles. On the other hand, it obviously was not something they made well known. Middle school and the first couple years of high school seems to be where most of the peer issues occur; and it is also the period when the highest loss of scouts occurs.

Just some observations from my own experience.

One would hope that it is a given that a Boy Scout review for Eagle holds certain expectations, including respect for the himself, the BSA and its related ideals and associations (which would include a proper uniform), respect for his community, school, family, and so on.

In most cases, if a scout shows up to an EBOR with no uniform, or in general disheveled appearance, it will not enhance his board, and generally would show lack of respect for most of the above. On the other hand, if there is a valid reason to be in such disarray, then it might be overlooked. But, other than careless scheduling, or unexpected emergencies, I cannot think of much that would lead to that.

The uniform does not make the scout; but it reflects upon him in many respects. Again, that is my view. But, as a leader, I could not have that expectation if it was not one that was consistently portrayed within the unit, and by my own example.

Beavah;

My point was that paperwork errors and so on are not part of the board if at all possible. By someone reviewing it all, in order to make sure it is not likely to be an issue at the actual board, or when submitted to National, then it does not detract from the board itself. By having the board review things and bring up anything before the scout appears, it avoids almost all problems once he appears.

As far as uniforming goes, the district does not control a troop's uniforming habits. But, the scout needs to understand that the uniform is important to putting forth the proper image to the board. We have never had any scout contest this minor reminder. If you went to a job interview in jeans and wrinkled t-shirt, it unlikely you will give a good impression, unless it is for a job in which that attire is the norm; and even then, it might lessen your chances if most others came dressed more appropriately. I find it hard to believe that you would not consider uniforming important for a review at this level, one done outside of the troop.

The simple fact that it is known that these things are expected, helps troops encourage their scouts to learn to do it right to start with, which is part of growing up. Bureaucracy is also part of life. Working with it, while keeping it from being a hindrance, is an important lesson.

JMO

In our district, which runs all boards for the district, our coordinator goes over everything with a magnifying glass before even thinking about the review board. Once a board is scheduled, he has a check list that is used with the scout to try and make sure he comes totally prepared. One of the things on that list is complete uniform, including pants. He makes it clear that borrowed pants are fine, but appearing at the board is a serious event, and he needs to demonstrate he is serious; and that includes uniforming.

Once the board is called, the adults gather before hand and review all the paperwork; copies are made for each board member of the app, project paperwork, and a list of "suggested" questions is included as well for those not familiar. If there are any "paperwork" issues of concern, they are discussed before the scout is brought in and introduced by his leader. If something really out of line seems to have been overlooked prior, or rings a warning with someone, we will make a decision how to approach it and do so at once if possible. This led once to having to reschedule a board due to an very large issue with the project. The scout clarified it all, rewrote the confusing part, and passed his board. When asked a general project question, the scout broached the issue himself that caused the reschedule.

One member only is from the unit, and they always begin the round robin of about 4 go arounds. At the end, the chair of the board assures there are no more questions from board members, then asks the scout if he has any questions for the board. On occasion we have gotten some interesting responses, but usually they just want to get out of there by that time. "There is no retesting of skills, only indirect questions which touch on use of some skills." The interview is much like a job interview. The chair has one of those "that was easy" buttons, and occasionally asks the scout to push it when it seems he is stressing too much. Amazing how well that seems to work. Occasionally, especially with younger candidates, they get really tongue tied. So we all take a deep breath, he pushes the button, and we go back to the review. Most boards run 45-60 minutes.

We have never not passed someone as far as I know; but a few have not reached the physical review, due to inability to conform to the clarifications in paperwork, or glaring inconsistencies that raise red flags. The worst was a very strong indication that signatures were forged. But most paper issues are due to "adult" record keeping errors, and get worked out. I suspect that our process, which leans heavily on prepping and review beforehand, works well because of that. Also, we seem mostly able to focus on the scout himself, rather than his paperwork.

Speaking of crazy people; did anyone else catch Rush on Leno last night? Can't decide if he or Beck has crazier eyes when they start thrashing around with their hands while they spout their vitriol and absurdities.

Paranoia reigns!!!!! Of course someone has proof that Mr. Obama had this done as part of his "plan". What is the matter with some people?