skeptic

Another indirect comparison you could use is the Philmont and other high adventure base adult restrictions. They are there for a reason; basically the one you allude to. In our area, the more popular summer camps that have really fun and advanced programs also have adult number restrictions. Maybe pointing these things out could jar their understanding a bit. We old guys used to go out alone with 8-12 on occasion; though I always tried to have at least one other with me for my sanity. Good luck.

It occurs to me that maybe we should replace the "scales" with a "spinning wheel", or perhaps a "spider-web with a gowned judge in the middle".

Don't hold your breath Ed, unless you like the color blue.

Merlyn: So someone who is a leader in an anti-religion group makes a statement publicly that is not accurate, or against the current interpretation of law, but because he is wrong, it does not count?

In that case, your continued specious determination that BSA is a religious organization is wrong too; as it has been noted and corrected numerous times that the statement made by one careless person in BSA that they were a religious organization was inaccurate, and not the case. Yet, you persist, as do the leftist jurists. It is a pretty fine line you walk one might think. The only difference is where the statement was made; and that has been corrected by the BSA lawyers since.

Lot of odd-ball spiders in your arena it seems.

It is not just new boys unfortunately. Sometimes, it is just crazy, the thinking of a parent. We have a 15 yo who is one of the best prepared and capable campers I have ever had, even at 11. He has been backpacking, hiking, and camping since he was about 5 (with his single mom) and can walk you into the ground. She often works out of the area, and has left him with other families, and even by himself over a couple of nights. Yet, she wrote me concerned he was too young for the OA Ordeal (the overnight by himself). I think I have gotten her through it; and he has no concern at all. Go figure.

Merlyn: You state, "Since public schools were the single largest chartering partner, it was pretty obvious that the BSA WAS a public accommodation". Now who is making things up? Churches have always been the primary sponsors of BSA groups, and were followed by service organizations for many years, with schools being a distant third. For a relatively short period, Cubbing was prominent in elementary schools via the PTA when it was still a parent, teacher organization, rather than a political group. But even then, churches were by far the primary sponsors.

You also once again make your far-fetched statement that BSA is a religious organization,"how many other "religious organizations" get to recruit schoolkids?" The convoluted logic in this statement has been debated to death here, as well as in other forums; and, just because a few questionable rulings have been made by left leaning jurists does not make it true.

It will, as usual, be entertaining to read your strident disagreement; maybe we will be treated to something you have not repeated dozens of times. Have fun.

Our most challenging problem with Terrorism is dealing with our national "Gang" issues. Call them "gangbangers", or whatever; but they are "Terrorists" as far as I am concerned. And, in most of the larger cities they have links to the drug cartels and so on. We live in fear of another "911", yet we seem almost willing to accept the gangs. Makes little sense to me. Then, I am old and set in my ways; and I think simple respect for others, and common sense should be enough.

I wonder if we get to "a chicken in every pot", if PETA will have a fit? Personally, being raised by parents and grandparents of the depression, and being a "50's" latch-key kid, I seem to not be willing to get too careless. We simply only buy what we can afford, even before this current fiasco hit. Use of credit cards only happens if we can pay it off completely. Adjust as needed; fewer movies in the theater (almost none, actually), fewer restaurant visits, more careful planning on driving and covering as many needs on one trip as possible, and even buying basic canned goods and some produce at the "99 Cent Store". Not having ever been particularly bound by fads, I have generally worn my clothes out; yet I still have items that are like new and no shortage of things to wear.

Common sense; that thing that seems to have gotten lost to far too many of the more recent generations.

JMHO

Ed, while "some" SM's may not be qualified, we would hope that they would have enough integrity to refer their scouts to a listed counselor that was, or work with a qualified assistant to assure the proper fulfillment of the badge. When I first became a SM, I referred scouts to another more qualified counselor until I felt my knowledge and experience was satisfactory. Now, I own the camping badge in my troop unless there are unusual situations. They can work on requirements at summer camp with the offered badge, but I hold the final word on the completion. If a troop has a SM who "does not camp with his boys", then they need a new leader. Since so much of the badge requires direct knowledge of what the scout does on outings, and so on, it simply makes sense to hang that responsibility on the leader, while making it clear they need to only undertake it when they are qualified.

Still, there will always be leaders who do not uphold the integrity of the program. Hopefully they are few and far between.

In our council, all SM's are automatically camping counselors unless they choose not to be. It is recognized that most of the times they are the most qualified for this particular badge. May be that way in other councils, or might not.

Have seen a number of versions of the bacon stretcher. The ones I like the best are the rubber band type that crank around a spindle. I have been known to take a boy's hat and put it in his left hand and fan the fire to solve the smoke shifter problem. Agree that much of the concern is way overblown. As long as no one is physically hurt or endangered, most of these things are simply fun for all, and part of being accepted into the group, as has been noted.

Ah, the dream collectors sometimes have. While doing research on something in our town, I discovered a store that was the first distributor in the city. But, it was too late. The building had been sold, and the store emptied. Had fantasies of going to their basement and finding things from the 20's and 30's. Oh well.

Our troop has been in the UMC basement of their current building since 1928, and we date to 1921. At one time, most of the boys were also member families. Now we are the only troop on the poor end of town, and have not had a church member in the troop for over 10 years, other than myself and a couple of adults on the charter. Two Eagles in past 3 years from the congregation, but other troops. They all live at the other end of the city, the higher income area, and so we are not convenient. They have always been supportive, but few members help anymore, other than give us donations. We can use the church van, the gym, and any other part if it fits the schedules. Have a new pack now, but so far no boys from the church other than the cubmaster's son. Hope to have some soon though, as we need boys.

In our council, every Methodist troop, and they are in every community, is over 50 years old.

Gooseberry with lots of whipped cream.

These are politicians, don't forget. The general populous is still in a majority against these things, though at a lesser level (suspect many have just given up in the face of the big guns out $$$ing their wishes); and there is the major reason why judges and legislatures do not reflect the wishes of the people whom they represent. The agenda pushers have far more dollars to throw at the people making decisions, and are far more zealous. Most regular people just are trying to survive, and do not have the energy or financial ability to continue the fight.

Shield up!!

Yep, it is a true dilema. But, I can accept the criticism that the profit is too high. That is legitimate, based on my knowledge of the retail business. That is why you can buy almost identical pants and shirts in some low priced stores at considerably lower prices. They likely pay a bit less, but not much; but they are getting less profit and more volume.

From my perspecitive, National should review their pricing and reduce profits by a large percentage; especially in this economy. They have the resources in place to find dollars someplace other than through retail items.

JMHO

In my first two troops as a boy, they had a routine of having you stand with your hands out at your side, palms up, and putting a scout book on each one. Its purpose was two fold, in their perception anyway; corrective physical activity, and being reminded that the Oath and Law were sitting on their palms.

I told my scouts about this process a couple of times. What surprised me, a number asked to do it so they could see what it was like. Then it became a contest of sorts.

Did it work back then; hard to say. Seemed to have few real problems; but that was back in the day that respect was expected, period.

Funny that your leader fought on the Russian front too. In the 3 years I spent in Germany in the late 60's, I never met a German who fought in WWII that had not fought on the Russian front. We used to laugh amongst ourselves about that coincidence.

Never a CS, as I was the tag-a-long when my brother was and mom was the den mother. I wanted to do what he was doing, so could not wait to join Boy Scouts. Have a photo of me on my 11th BD in my new uniform; joined the day of it and went on my first trip a day or two later, the Lutheran campout in SCal in 1955. Active in 2 SGVC troops until 58 when moved to the desert and almost dropped out at 14 as a Life. A friend of mine was the SPL of the troop in town that I visited and was in my freshman class. When I did not come back, he nailed me at school and dragged me back more or less. Ended up going to camp that summer and finishing Eagle in 59; Dale got his third palm at the same COH. Went on to jambo in 1960 as scribe and unofficial SPL (the actual one could not seem to do the job). Briefly ASM in a base troop in Germany in 66-67 until got sent remote to a bombing range near Munich. Considered pro as I was getting ready to grad in 71; but they actually made me visit and tag-a-long with one at work and I realized that was not for me. Tried to get involved in Orange County in early 70's, but they did not seem to know what to do with me. Finally got involved again in spring 76 in the old Topanga District of the GWC. Moved to Ventura in 77 and my store manager was CC of our troop; he dragged me to his meeting and I walked out SM. Still am, and of course have worn dozens of various district and council hats over the years (most of us seem to not know how to say no). 1st ASM for 85 jambo troop; WB in 80's and staff 1st course of new one. And here we are. Am sort of one of the local historians, as my troop started in 1921 and I collect and display memorabilia. Have displays each year at annual meeting and Eagle dinner; and sometimes in other locals.

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This was taken seriously enough that someone from National posted a request to Scouts-L to retract it and make it clear it was a joke. Apparently they "did" get all kinds of feedback at a higher level. Some things should not be made jokes of, as they are confusing enough, especially for novices.

It appears that the on-line copy is still the old one. Wonder how long it will take to get the new one up.

Is it time to bring back POGO? We certainly have a big enough swamp to row in. I am sure Walt Kelly could have a ball with it if he were still here. For those too young to know of whom and what I speak, Google it.

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Over the years, I have furnished record data on training to the local council, and supposedly to national through them. None of this info is apparent in my on-line records. Do we know if there is a system in place to get these things, such as PTC training, Woodbadge, advanced scouter training for positions and so on? The only thing that shows are recently taken on-line courses.

If there isn't; should there be?

Lisa:

SR540-- Covered it pretty well. I can reflect on it from both a scout and leader perspective; but when I went in 1960 as a scout, they did not have nearly the choices now available. Still, the experience was one of the highlights of my life, period. Did it keep me in, as a 16 year old? Probably contributed to my continued involvement through HS, especially since I lived in the hinterland desert of San Bernardino.

In 85, I was 1st ASM. Saw many of the things SR540-- noted. One thing that I noted that applied to both experiences, IMHO, was that scouts who had to work to go, get there partly or almost completely on their own efforts, truly appreciated the experience, and took advantage of it far more enthusiastically than others. That is not to say that those whose parents simply plopped down the bucks did not enjoy, or whatever, as most did; but there were a few of these that were the real problem children of the troop. And, most of them did not stay in the program past their "forced" Eagle.

Overall, if a scout can go, it is generally a growing experience. Personally, I still think that 12 is a bit young; but I do not make that decision.

Not a bad presentation for introduction. Did note that there seems to be an error about when scouting began. They say BP started it in 1900; but we all should know that it began on Brownsea in 1907. Possibly just a script error that was missed of course.

While on the site, I reviewed, then watched a short presentation on the generations. Found it to be very enlightening and gave me some insight that had not necessarily occurred to me. I am sort of an overlap generation, technically, according to them, "mature", but really more of a "boomer". Guess being on the cusp will do that to you.