shortridge

"YPT aside as I think we all agree with those basics of that set of policies, just because something is printed in boldface does not elevate it to being a rule or regulation." BadenP, You are wrong. RTM. ========= I agree that the G2SS does not address many group sleeping situations. But in this case, the OP clearly states there was a main area and two wings. The Cubs could have slept in the main area, the men in one wing and the women in the other wing. No problem, and fully within the rules. Instead, apparently because some Cubs had snagged one of the wings already, they chose to do some sort of mixed-gender arrangement - which, frankly, I would be a bit uncomfortable with - and mixed Cubs and parents in the big room. Whether you like it or not, the complaining CM will score a point if he takes this issue up the ladder.

"I am told the CM is going to storm the next district R/T (which he has never previously attended) and make it known how wrong we are for violating G2SS, and how his pack is ALWAYS getting screwed over." Two completely separate issues here. Yes, you violated G2SS. Admit that right off the bat in your contacts with the DC and DE, and say you've learned from your mistake and will do things differently next time. His pack is getting the short end of the stick? That will come across as whining, especially from a guy who has never attended a Roundtable nor gotten trained. "My general understanding is that there may be situations where the G2SS is only a GUIDE ..." Your general understanding is partly correct. Some items in the G2SS are only a guide. Not the Youth Protection rules we've been discussing here. They're in boldface, which means they are rules and policies. "... and as long as council standards are met, under the eye of the camp Ranger, we're okay." Council standards do not trump National standards rules - and besides, there are no Council standards on youth protection. And don't rely on a camp ranger to interpret them for you - or assume that his mere presence absolves you from anything. A camp ranger is generally just a property maintenance superintendent. He or she isn't a G2SS, program or "rules" expert. "It is the view of the COR and CC that the CM is entitled to his opinion; but if he takes the issue to R/T, it is his personal opinion, not the opinion of the Pack." Confused. Are you talking about your COR and CC, or his? ======================= On an unrelated topic: "... or if they were just fagged out from all the other outdoor events of the day ... " Do yourself a huge favor, and don't use this term again. I know it's a common colloquialism in some circles, but given the popular connotations, there are so many better words that could be used instead.

... only if the Scout gets to ask BOR members the same questions.

My lodge had not an elected Vice Chief, but an appointed Honors Chairman, who oversaw the Vigil selection process and that for the Founders Award and other such honors and recognitions.

Sad thing is that we even have to talk about this. No Scouting training should have to teach participants how to make other adults grow up and stop acting like little kids.

Beavah - I don't disagree with you on most points, but I think when we can follow the rules easily or with minimum of effort, as the OP's group could have, we have an obligation to do so. Of course, the best way to handle all of this is to plan it out beforehand, ask questions, and explain to the parents before they arrive.

Print (handwritten or printed documents) will always have a place. It's a universally low-tech medium that you can access anywhere, any time, with no regard for wireless connections or battery life. Only thing you need is a light source, and you can get that with a candle or campfire. That said, I'm with perdidochas. I prefer typed documents by far. After a while, my handwriting becomes atrocious, impossible for anyone but me to read.

Sorry to say, but you violated youth protection policies. From the G2SS: "7. Male and female leaders must have separate sleeping facilities. Married couples may share the same quarters if appropriate facilities are available." Logic and reason aren't on your side, so don't continue this fight. You could have easily stuck all the boys in the great room, the men in one wing and the women in the other wing. Problem solved. No need to break up older and younger boys - they're all Cubs. If there were more men than could fit in one wing, they could have overflowed into the great room, putting up dividers. That's permitted. If there were more women than could fit in one wing, that poses a problem, because they can't overflow into the great room ("Adults and youth of the same gender may occupy dormitory or single-room accommodations"). In that case, you could ask the camp for some tents and pitch them outside. Were the parents right to be angry and storm out? No. There were solutions that could have been worked out. Should you issue refunds? Sure, as a gesture of goodwill and peace. Do partial refunds (after all, the lodge costs the same amount if there are 10 or 50 people sleeping there, so you did incur some costs), apologize, and chalk it up as a learning experience.

Same way you award all the other rank badges - present it to him as soon as possible after he earns it, and recognize that achievement with a formal ceremony at the next Court of Honor. Simple. Far too many Scouters have wasted their time writing special ceremonies for each badge, patch, card, gee-gaw and doo-dad out there. Back to basics, people. The Scouts probably aren't listening to those deep, thought-provoking, inspirational words of wisdom, anyway. They want the boring old guy or gal at the front of the room to shut up so they can go do fun stuff with their friends. Here's a radical idea: Let the patrols come up with ceremonies for awarding rank to their members, and have the PL be the bestower/officiant.

"I have remained silent on her decision and openly told all of the WIIs that they are welcome to go where they please....even though it KILLS me to do so." How would you feel if the situation was reversed? If you were the "renegade" parent and wanted your son to go to a certain troop, but the den and pack leadership were all pushing the kids to go to another troop? Give it a rest, take a few steps back and look at it from another person's shoes.

I'm still trying to figure out why it's awful / crass / cheesy / tacky to do a FOS pitch at an ECOH, but perfectly fine to do it at a COH. Why does that offend peoples' sensibilities so strongly?

There's good marketing and then there's basic marketing. We're not trained salespeople here, but we should at least have the basic training and guidance to do the basics. In my experience, good flyers/ promotions/ presentations/ pitches/ websites answer the same questions that journalists try to answer: Who: Who's this program or event for? Who can attend? Who's in charge, and how can I contact them with questions? What: What exactly is going to happen? When: Date and time of event; deadlines for registration Where: Location - address and detailed directions from multiple points of the compass Why: Why is this event or program valuable? How: How do I register - online, in person, by mail? Cost: How much does it cost? So What: What's the big deal? Why should I attend this event or program over the many other things competing for my attention?

SctDad, Not in my area. Boy Scouts have two (soon to be three) camps, Girl Scouts have three, and they're all many miles apart. The two co-ed camps in my region are also a good distance away from everyone else.

First, fingers-crossed congratulations to you! Best of luck! Second, I disagree strongly with Eagle92. I'd feel very creeped out if my wife, fiancee, daughter, etc., were invited to a job interview, no matter how informal the event was or how family-focused the employer was. You're hiring me, no one else. I'm not going to put my family on display so some boss can decide if he likes our parenting style, or make sure my family background meshes with his. That approach seems extremely unprofessional to me. I don't care how long the hours are or how tough the job is - if I say my family can handle it, that's my decision, not the employer's.

Upon review, Architecture cannot be earned at a Scout camp event. Requirement 1 has a "Do the following" item: "Tour your community and list the different types of buildings you see. Try to identify buildings that can be associated with a specific period of history or style of architecture. Make a sketch of the building you most admire." As far as I know, "cheap 1960s-era temporary-buildings-that-have-become-permanent with peeling brown paint" found at many Scout camps is not a specific style of architecture.

The Scout finds out about the process by asking his PL, SPL or SM. Simple. Since your SPL didn't ask you in advance - you thought he was staffing the event - he didn't follow the procedures. I also don't think you have to give him the badge without additional details - such as, who was the counselor, and was he or she registered?

It sounds as though there's a consensus that FOS presentations at Eagle COHs are verboten, but at a "regular" COH, they're fine. What's the logic there?

NJCubScouter: Unconsciousness, of course, means lack of consciousness, or, in other words; one who is unconscious knows nothing of his surroundings or of what is happening. A person may, however, be partially, as well as wholly, unconscious. Unconsciousness may be due to so many causes that, in order to give the best treatment, the scout should first know the cause. Always try to find this out if you can. If you cannot do this, however, you should at least determine whether unconsciousness is due to poison, to bleeding, to sunstroke, or to freezing; for each of these demand immediate, special treatment. If it is not due to one of these causes, and the patient is pale and weak, have him placed with his head low, and warm and stimulate him in every possible way. If the face is red and the pulse is bounding and strong, that patient should have his head raised on a folded coat. No stimulants should be given him and cold water should be sprinkled on his face and chest. The common causes of unconsciousness are shock, electric shock, fainting, apoplexy and injury to the brain, sunstroke and heat exhaustion, freezing, suffocation, and poisoning. The first two have already been described and the treatment of any form of suffocation in artificial respiration. - from the 1911 Handbook

What a dope. He clearly didn't read the actual 1911 requirement in context: Advanced first aid: Know the methods for panic prevention; what to do in case of fire and ice, electric and gas accidents; how to help in case of runaway horse, mad dog, or snake bite; treatment for dislocations, unconsciousness, poisoning, fainting, apoplexy, sunstroke, heat exhaustion, and freezing; know treatment for sunburn, ivy poisoning, bites and stings, nosebleed, earache, toothache, inflammation or grit in eye, cramp or stomach ache and chills; demonstrate artificial respiration. It's the equivalent of today's first aid requirements for T-2-1. If anything, that shows how universal our Scouting skills are - they're basically the same, with only very minor tweaks, over a 100-year timespan. Sounds like I'm going to have to watch this video with a barf bag at hand.

Definitely keep in mind these aren't (or shouldn't be) "trips" along the lines of expensive school or band trips, where the kids stay in hotels and eat out at decent restaurants. You and your son will mostly be paying for the privilege of him sleeping on the ground under a thin tent or tarp, over- or under-cooking food on a small stove or campfire, getting wet, dirty and tired slogging through the woods - and loving it! About $25 would be more than reasonable for most weekend campouts. The farther you go, the more expensive it gets, of course. Summer camp is expensive, to be sure, but consider it's a six-long deal and includes room & board - about $50 a day for your camp. Cost is a concern among many Scouting parents - you're not alone. But consider that Scouting is one of the more affordable activities out there - compare it to band, JROTC, baseball, football ... OK, chess club would be cheaper, but they don't have cool uniforms. Have a one-on-one chat with the Scoutmaster if the program calendar concerns you and ask the questions that have been suggested here. And remember - your son doesn't have to got on all the campouts! If the ski trip has too big a pricetag and your son can't raise even part of the money, he doesn't go. No biggie - there'll be plenty of other treks. Another one I looked at has even more, including a trip to Disney (3 days). I sure hope they include some good fundraising..but I gotta say I am a bit discouraged. I do NOT want my kid to spend most of his spare time peddling (insert usually good and useful, but woefully overpriced product here) to afford trips! Not to take this off-topic - but if I were in your shoes, I would RUN, not walk, away from that troop. Unless you're right next door and the Scoutmaster works there and can get a 90 percent discount, there is, IMHO, no reason on earth for a Boy Scout troop to go to any of the Disney attractions. Since there are a lot of active troops in your area, I'd consider getting the financial info from the Scoutmasters first and drawing up a list based on what your family can afford - then let your son make the real decision based on friendships and fun.

Outside of rural areas, why would you think they would have ever touched rabbit fur? Most city & suburban kids wouldn't be allowed to have rabbits. Nor would they normally go hunting, on average. Petting zoos are rare (plus not "cool" for older kids). Tracking and trailing is not a contemporary Scouting skill.

but not be WEBLO I candidates in training until the end of this school year and through their 4th grade year until they have become eligible for admission into the WEBLOS I rank. They may be in the WEBLOS den throughout their 4th grade year in preparation for WEBLOS I rank, but, alas, they are not WEBLOS I until they have earned this title. Don't mean to nitpic, but I had to read this a few times. I think your understanding of some basic principles and terminology may be a bit off. First: There's no such thing as "candidates in training" or "candidates." Second: There is no such thing as Webelos I rank. There is, in fact, no such thing as Webelos I or Webelos II. Those are unofficial terms used to describe first- and second-year Webelos dens in packs that have enough Cubs to make separate dens. Third: The term is Webelos, not Weblo or Weblos.

"Next he says he is on the road spending 252 nights last year in hotels." Wouldn't it be a great local morale and PR boost to have the Chief Scout Executive stay at the council camp when he's in town? I'd wager 99 percent of camps have winterized cabins these days - he wouldn't even have to sleep on the ground. The mattresses at my camp aren't even all that lumpy, the showers usually have hot water most of the time and I'm sure the camp director would cook up some liquid eggs for his breakfast. I know, I know, he's an executive of a major corporation and needs constant Internet and cellular access and proximity to big airports and transportation that's not a beat-up camp pickup truck to run things properly. But one can certainly dream ... (Written only half tongue-in-cheek.)

If you perform the T-2-1 requirements once to get them checked off and then never using them again, of course your skills are going to stink. But if you use them on a regular basis, at meetings, hikes, campouts and treks, you'll become extremely proficient. There's nothing basic about being First Class.

Gunny, what's the Tribe of the Lone Bear? I agree the OA can help with setup, but there's only so much that can be done. It's useful work, certainly, but it can come across as mere gruntwork or busywork, not the types of lasting, meaningful service that the Order is based upon. My old camp has begun leaving the square platforms in the campsites year-round - stacked up in out-of-the-way areas - to help speed setup. Should be interesting to see how it works. Folks who have never been involved in that type of work have no idea of the logistics and time involved. ========= Mods: Can someone delete the spam?