Sentinel947

Then I guess we've reached an impasse. I can clearly read and I have demonstrated such. I never said you said anything of the sort, I used the words, Act and Impression. Clearly you and I having this discussion is a waste of time. Maybe your vast powerful stealth campaign on the Scouter.com forums leads to the changing of the BSA's policy.

Merlyn: In the case of the British Scout Association, if they made the impression that Scouts who are atheists can join, than they should have an Oath that allows for that. They do not apparently. Perhaps they should have followed Baden Powell's exception for various countries, allowing for alternative phrasings with out God in them. Like I said in my previous post, your knowledge of the British Scouts is far superior to mine. Thank you for teaching me something new today.

I never said you wrote those things. I said "You act." For all of your harping on my literacy, those are two different statements. To clarify, That is the Impression you give. Clearly you just stated you do not believe that so that point is over. Merlyn does not believe being a Scout or Scouting Adult is a right. Case is closed. Correct?

You also cleared up the misconception of your statement about American Constitutional Rights of Private Organizations.

I wrote: "If you want to make this an insulting arguement, I'll gladly let you win. However, if you want to have substantive, polite discussion you are going to have to do better my friend."

Merlyn wrote: "Well, you'll have to learn to read better."

I'm afraid my reading level is high enough to allow us to have a substantive discussion. However, I'm continuing to extend the opportunity to be civil to you, and you are continually turning it down. I don't think civility rests on my ability to read does it?

I hope you can bear the advice of a fool like myself Merlyn. You can elevate your arguments on this forum. Rather than simply provoking angry responses from various members on this forum, ( an action that is generally called trolling), you can win people over to your viewpoints. However, your attitude sets many members of this forums thoughts in stone. Hopefully you can understand what I wrote. I'm an illiterate, but I'm working hard on improving my reading skills.

Sincerely yours,

Sentinel.

WAS: As an 19 year old Scouter, who obviously has no kids in the program, I can sincerely tell you that there are Adult Volunteers who do have your sons safety and development in mind. Eagle92 is obviously one of them. I'd like to add myself to that list. I'd care to venture almost all of the adults on this forum are.

I decided to approach my previous post from the American perspective.

Merlyn posted: "Intolerant theists, like the UK scouting association at the start of this thread, are not content to allow atheists be atheists; they insist that atheists pretend to be religious by reciting oaths to a god they don't believe in, or to pray to a god they don't believe in just because it's time for everyone to pray. "

These kids are not being forced. Either they enter the BSA or the British Scouts, or they don't. If they enter, they are agreeing to the Oath. The Scouts insist that their members recite and follow the Oath. If they don't want to, then they cannot and should not be members.

Your next erronous statement:

"And there goes Merlyn, not understand that the BSA has the constitutional right to set it's membership standard (discriminate)."

Merlyn replys: "Wrong, but that won't stop you. "

I don't know when you were on the Supreme Court Merlyn, I'm not on it, and neither are you. They happen to agree with me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_v._Dale.

So I'm not stopping anybody. I don't make the policy, and I happen to disagree with it. The Supreme Court of the United States says so, but you are so much wiser than those 9 Justices.

NEXT!

Sentinel 947 writes "You act as if ANYBODY's membership in the BSA is a right."

Merlyn writes: "No, I don't. You just can't read. I've never stated that."

Your statement is wrong here. I can obviously read. I was educated in a quite nice Public School, and I'm quite pleased with the education the USA has provided to me.

And in my honest opinion, you do act as if Membership of Atheists or homosexuals in the BSA is some sort of right. I'm willing to grant you that my statement is my personal opinion.

As for my "babbling" I am talking about this issue from the American perspective. I'm not as wise or as smart as you are Merlyn, I don't have enough information about the Scouts across the pond to make an informed post about it. Your vast knowledge of the British Scouts crushes my meager knowledge of the subject, and to be really frank, I don't give a hoot about the British Scouts membership policy.

If you want to make this an insulting arguement, I'll gladly let you win. However, if you want to have substantive, polite discussion you are going to have to do better my friend.

We don't have that many disagreements here Merlyn, and the personal attacks on my literacy is unnecessary.

Respectfully yours,

Sentinel

And there goes Merlyn, not understand that the BSA has the constitutional right to set it's membership standard (discriminate). Nobody is forced to do religious anything in the BSA. I cannot make the words of the Oath and Law explode from your lips. Only you can do that.

It's a shame Merlyn, because I agree with you that homosexuals and atheists should be allowed in the BSA, and that the program needs minor tweaks to them. However, unlike yourself, I will never advocate court action or brute political force to make that change.

You act as if ANYBODY's membership in the BSA is a right. It's not. I could be removed from my position and membership if somebody higher up didn't like me. Petty as that would be, that is a reality.

Membership in private organization is a priviledge, not a right. That in my mind is COMPLETELY separate from whether the BSA's current policy is wise or not, (I believe it is completely foolish.)

Ultimately Merlyn, you feel very passionate on this issue, and I applaud and I have sympathy for your view that all children should be able to have opportunity to join the BSA. I share that conviction with you, however, we do not share the methods to achieve that goal.

If you would like, find the section of the US Constitution and Bill of Rights that gives anybody the ability to use Government to remove Religion or it's trappings from a Private organization. Government can (and should) remove Religious Icons from Public Property, and Children shouldn't be force to pray in Schools, that's clearly in the bounds of the 1st Amendment, Freedom for, and from Religion.

However, You are trying to have your cake and eat it to. The Constitution doesn't generally apply to private organizations.

Secularism ends when the Government's reach does, and that key concept you seem unable or unwilling to grasp.

If you actually read my monologue here, I will applaud you again.

Yours in service,

Sentinel.

(This message has been edited by Sentinel947)

Yea Brew, can you do us a favor and cool the rhetoric?

Sounded like this guy!

Oh and Brew, I mean that video quote purely as tongue and cheek humor.

Respectfully yours,

Sentinel(This message has been edited by Sentinel947)

Haha. Alright NJ. I just don't like that this forum seems to get awfully uncivil. It is VERY entertaining, but ultimately, those of us here who are Scouters wouldn't be caught dead offline saying some of the things we say here.

I luckily avoid such places. By that logic, it's saying "Lets denigrate other peoples ideas and beliefs here, because other places do it so much more." I don't like that line of logic.

The place I have seen the most denigration of beliefs by ANY group of people is this forum. Already in this thread we've had the vitriol fly in both directions.

BSA24, you painting religion and broad strokes, and then insulting those of us who are religious is incredibly insulting and shortsighted. Funny how you can point out the speck of ignorance in a young Earthers eye, but miss the branch in your own. Oh wait, that's "superstiution isn't it? Furthermore, your zeal for science and technology seems to have a reverance all it's own. That's all fine and well, but those of us who respect Scientists and their discoveries and respect our beliefs do not need your condescending attitude towards us. May not in your world, but in mine, Science and Religion peacefully coexist.

Good day,

Sentinel

Basement: Almost no standards short of military style promotion is going to keep SOME bad eggs from becoming Eagle. As I always say, "I'd rather work with a good Life Scout, than a bad Eagle Scout.

http://scoutingrediscovered.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=1&sid=3852abb4589f095c639fc30c2b90d148

If you guys get the chance, check out this sweet blog and forum I came across.

Yours in Scouting.

Sentinel

Wow. I'm agreeing with Merlyn for once! This is quite unusual....

Based on the cases Merlyn cited, Marriage has been deemed a right, and this term the 9 greatest Legal and Constitutional Minds in this Nation will decide a case about gay marriage.

I look forward to it.

Relating this to the BSA, since this is a Scouting forum, the BSA has to get in front of this issue, and the only way it can do this is by changing it's policy. It may lose some members, but I think it will be just like DADT. People freaked about it, and changing the policy has had zero impact.

Peregrinator: Forget it, nothing you can say will possibly change Merlyns mind.

the fact remains he decided he was an atheist. That's fine and well, but he cannot be an Eagle if he is an Atheist. He is also homosexual, and his parents and lawyer would want you to believe that was the ONLY reason he didn't make it.

He will not receive his Eagle because he is a Atheist AND a Homosexual. He DOES NOT meet membership standards at this time...

THIS is truly a shame for everyone involved. The Boy doesn't get his Eagle, The Scoutmaster looks like a bully, the BSA looks like homosexual hating bigots, and the winners are the media, who get to resurrect the BSA Homosexual controversy for more ad revenue to their websites.

I look forward to the day the BSA gets rid of its DADT policy on homosexuals and gets this nonsense behind them.

This subforum could use some love. Anybody come across some good ones since the last time this forum was posted in?

Sentinel

Due to the political nature of this article, we are discussing it in a thread in Issues and Politics.

Pack: that article is inaccurate.

"To earn the Eagle rank, which is in its 100th year, Scouts must progress through five lower ranks, earn 21 merit badges and serve six months in a leadership position, among completing other tasks. More than two million young men have earned the rank."

Haha. If they say a Scout earns 21 merit badges, and goes through the five lower ranks, (I guess Scout doesn't count?) and uh, doesn't an Eagle have to serve 4 months as Star, Life for 6 and Eagle for 6 months? That would make the statement factually inaccurate.

I took my IOLS training this past summer. I was quite pleased with it, even if it was all just review.

Sentinel

Seattle: after reviewing your comment and mine, I have come to the conclusion that while my stand is great in Principle, being my role in the troop, I would have extreme difficulty knowing who is not trained and registered. Plus from time to time parents who aren't register do go on the trips. So my stand is great for a hypotetical situation that will never happen, not so good in practice.

Thank you for showing me my error of thinking,

Sentinel947.

I have worked with a few homeschooled Scouts, many Public School kids, and a few Private School ones, the only difference between them is how they are raised.

Once in a while there is a kid with severe behavior issues and that is part of the reason he is homeschooled, but that's an exception to the rule. I know just as many kids with behavioral issues who are in public school.

I think kids act the way they act because of genetics and raising. Not whether they were public, private or homeschooled.

Just my two cents, feel free to disagree,

Sentinel947

Basement, I have no idea how my views will develop as I move on later in life. However, I try to keep an open mind and will hopefully arrive at just and moral positions.

Furthermore, I am also in favor of the local option, and I certainly don't feel like I'm part of the gay agenda, nor an attack on the BSA, and organization I admire and continue to volunteer for.

PLC issues are on the SPL and the Patrol leader. Perhaps if you have an older boy who has been a SPL, he could become a Junior Assistant Scoutmaster and do some mentoring of the current SPL?

Support him. If you are not trained yet, then please do so! There are so many behind the scenes things Scoutmasters have to do, and you never realize it until you ask "Hey _____________ can I help with something?"

How long has this Scoutmaster been Scoutmaster?

Eagledad, In my council we have a similiar Merit Badge Challenge. At least in my troop, we tell the boys "Hey MBC is coming up, you need to get your blue cards filled out.". The scouts fill em out and bring em to the Scoutmaster. If they don't, their wasting their time and money and MBC.