SagerScout

At 10, they are Junior scouts, and yes, lots of Junior scouts camp. The suggestion to get some training and volunteer to go is a really good one. In my council, you must have both a Troop Camp Leadership trained person and a trained first aid person to get a camp permit, and they cannot be the same person. If the leader doesn't have that second person lined up, with signed training card in her possession, her hands are tied. She CAN'T take them camping.

The most worrisome thing in your post to me is that it sounds as if the leaders are planning the meetings. At Junior level, the girls should have at least half of the "say" on what the troop is doing.

Do you sit in on the meetings? Do the girls decide what they're going to work on next, at least in general outline? Have you any chance to go to the service unit meetings to see what the service unit is up to?

Viperatx - Congratulations on your initiative and planning ahead for reaching your scouting goals! I'd go ahead and listen in on the information, if it's ok with your SM, so that you can be aware of how much time to allot for your work. But I don't think I'd sweat actually doing the paperwork until you are actually a Life scout. The hardest thing in my opinion isn't really the paperwork, it's making a good choice of project - one that you can enjoy and that is really a contribution - and then executing it. You already have shown that you're not going to sit around and wait on someone else to hand you a project plan, so I'd guess that you'll do fine. In the meantime, you could be shopping around for a cause that you care about.

It sounds like you're doing well with your son. Homeschooling was not an option for us for many years, either, the circumstances that allowed it now were so unusual as to make me feel they were heaven-sent. Even so there have been many days I've worried that I'm NOT doing the right thing by withdrawing him from school. Then I look at my other son and feel the other way. Go figure.

Julia

IN the Girl Scouts, there seems to be a bigger emphasis on progression being a step-at-a-time type of thing. Girls might start with a sleepover and then backyard camping and so on, by the time they're going to week-long camps they're pretty gutsy. However, since the week-long camps do start quite young (sometimes 1st or 2cd grade) it still can occur. For these first aid emergencies, camp staff have official homesickness medicine, in an official looking bottle. It tastes oddly like snocone syrup and works extremely well. You tell the young patient that you know that the pain in her chest from missing Mommy really hurts, and that it takes the medicine about 20 minutes to work, so she'll have to suffer for about 20 more minutes. You suggest that she can sit on her bunk and write Mom a letter to help her through the bad time while she's waiting for the medicine to work, measure out 5 mil and have her wash it down with water. The you can honestly and truthfully tell her that she'll most likely be feeling much better in about half an hour. She will. Kids have been known to bounce off their beds after 10 minutes shouting, "It works! I feel fine!" and zoom off to the next activity.

I don't know that a 12 year old would fall for it but I don't think there's anything wrong with saying, "Yes, it does hurt and make you feel sad to be away from home but if you'll rest up a bit and write a letter home you'll feel much better." Stack the deck by telling the youngun that the letter should include the best things about camp, because he doesn't want to "scare mom." After some quiet time writing about the fun he's having, he'll be a lot less likely to want to leave.

Of course, if he's not HAVING fun you have a different problem that should be dealt with differently. Also, if the other kids are hassling him there's something to deal with there too.

Good luck in middle school. They were not good years for either of my sons, but your experience may differ - you're in another state entirely, and one that I think is a bit above mine in educational success.

Actually, it would be difficult to be below it. I cannot believe Bush sold the nation on the 'Texas Miracle' in education because trust me, very few people here think it's been miraculous. The test scores have indeed gone up, on an exit exam given in 10th grade that any reasonably bright 9-year old without test anxiety should be able to pass. Of course, since the stakes are so high, all the bright kids are throwing up their breakfast on test days.... Meanwhile, the odds of a Hispanic teen graduating with a diploma from high school have dropped to less than 50:50 in my area, and less than 40% in parts south of here. Proud to provide the nation with low-cost, unskilled labor, that's us!

Oh, and while we're at it, there is in my school district a great rush to label kids as Spec Ed for any good reason, so that they may be exempted from the TAAS and next year the TEKS tests - if they might drag down the school average. My middle son (the scout) posed quite a quandary to them as he would bring UP the average considerably in mathematics but might have cratered them completely in composition. See, if he doesn't "get" the subject he has an anxiety attack and can't pick up the pencil at all. They managed to write into his IEP that he would take tests "as tolerated," which was fine with me but did give me a private giggle. What a great way to boost their school averages! Have the star student take the tests he's good at and skip the one he might not like.

Since he's been schooling at home he's written probably the equivalent of a small textbook on his web-page (not yet published). He's been working on it for months. For his Environmental Science merit badge he wrote an excellent report with plenty of research behind it on the Bald Eagle. Took him about 30 minutes to write it - and I was reading it trying to reconcile the college-level writing with the 13 yearold that brought home a giant F - with an impressive ZERO average - from his first 3 weeks of his freshman year in high school. Motivation is just everything for him. He can't fake it at all, he cannot lie, he can't pretend he understands something he doesn't and he can't pretend he doesn't understand something he does.

My daughter shines in middle school, and I'm not sure I like the net effect any better than my son's desperation. She and her friends appear to be learning to be cliquish, appearance oriented, and shallow, and we're fighting back with service and faith but it's pretty tough. I'm glad she's happy and popular but worried that she's not really learning the values we're trying to teach. She's a Scout too, though, so there's still hope.

Anyway, I'm cheering for your son and cheering you for making the sacrifices necessary to get him the experiences he needs to become a successful adult. Don't give up on getting him an educational environment that will support him, he is going to need you more than ever the next few years. Do listen to his side of things, there are going to be times that you need to help the school with their enforcement efforts but there will also be times that you need to be able to tell him that you're with him.

Hang in there and with any kind of luck you'll get the great rewards of seeing him grow into a self-sufficient adult!

Sctmom -

In answer to "How long does it last?" - it lasts as long as you can keep him in an environment that expects that behavior (camp); rewards that behavior with respect (camp staff and scoutmasters and 4H leaders that treat the boys with respect); and he is treated with common courtesy, as I am sure he is at home simply from the tone of your posts.

I think you said in other posts that he was considered ADHD? Or maybe it was just he acts like that sometimes...I don't recall, I no longer have much faith in diagnoses so try to forget them as soon as I hear them.

It will most likely end as soon as you send him back to public school, where his "faults" will be magnified and his strengths minimized, where the staff will consider the maintenance of their dictatorship more important than encouraging his intellect or self-esteem, and where he will be trapped in an environment that will ensure that the courteous and respectful behavior you now see will be ridiculed by his peers.

Sorry. I'm reflecting on some parenting mistakes I have made, and allowing my oldest son to finish his high school years while knowing it was doing him harm is high on my personal guilt list right now. It is hard to know when you should step in as the parent and say "NO, you CANNOT do this" and when you should let them make their own mistakes (it was his choice to stay in public school and attempt to do it "right"). In retrospect, I wish I would have insisted he leave an environment that I knew was very damaging to him. (For the record, my daughter does still attend public school. I'm not always opposed to them, just for some kids. I know firsthand too of the fact that many of us just don't have other viable options. Doesn't mean I have to like it....)

Julia

I'm like Laura, quite overweight and with torn cartilage in my knee, and slogging after those kids at summer camp was hard on me. No reason not to do it, but it was a lot more effort for me than my slim husband. On the other hand, he's a smoker and I had to talk him in on the last 25 yards of the swim test as he was really wheezing.

I'm with Quixote though, I strongly believe everyone should learn to swim, and swim well, whether or not they become water sports enthusiasts. It's a survival skill, and no fair saying "I just will avoid the water." Boats overturn, rivers rise, kids fall into pools, drunks fall into lakes.

Being overweight can be an ADVANTAGE in swimming, at least for staying afloat - dump me in a lake without a boat and guaranteed I'll be the last one to go down. I have good flotation, provided by the Lord, and an efficient stroke. I can go for miles, if slowly.

We just had widespread flooding with loss of life in our area, and it is my belief that the folks most likely to panic and make poor decisions are the ones who have no understanding of the power of water. In other words, the non-swimmers.

Julia

At Camp Karankawa, meals are served family style with two scouts acting as table waiters for each table of 10. The food is on platters and all scouts wait until to sit after the grace is said. Then "please pass" and "thank you" are heard all over the dining hall.

A new troop showed up mid-week and I was horrified to see the leaders begin serving themselves and the troop while standing up, DURING grace...with examples like that I'm not sure how to proceed with instruction. Start with the adults going back to Etiquette 101? Like, when in Rome, at least wait to see what the Romans do?

Four of the kids in this troop were also identified as the ones running off the waterfront dock just after the lunch hour. The camp's powerboat had been cut loose and was drifting across the cove. No harm done, but a bad example. The ID was quite good - the scout that saw the boys was quite positive "One had a KISS t-shirt and earring, another had a Cowboys' cap." There weren't many KISS t-shirts and earrings at camp. We had concluded that they were interlopers from the nearby park until they showed up at dinner. We told camp staff, I don't know what if anything they did.

Julia

I loudly second KoreaScout's take on this. It does seem very likely to be related to anxiety and fear of failure, and the private lesson, personal support approach sounds like a very good one. Speaking as a parent of an E.D. kid who was Tenderfoot for 2 years because he couldn't bring himself to complete the 30 day physical test in public, reassurance is key.

Wow, does dirty underwear really run off the ticks? How did MY son get them then? LOL.

In our climate, the boys didn't fight the showering much because it was so blasted hot and humid. We did have an emergency town run for cornstarch and a pair of shoes that didn't hurt MY feet (don't ask me how I bought the wrong size shoes but I did). Other than that, we were oversupplied and no one forgot anything of consequence.

One of our boys got a whopping heat rash in a sensitive area from walking around in a wet swimsuit. It's a mistake that is self-correcting - once experienced, they learn fast to avoid at all costs in the future....

Boy, I sure can understand why you want to quit. Sounds like it's a drag, not having your buddies around you and feeling left out in the troop. What are your friends that quit the troop now doing with their extra time? Playing sports, in the band, swimming at your local pool, or what? If it's "or what," meaning not something your dad would want you to be doing with them (hanging out with kids that cuss, smoke, drink, use pot or other drugs, spray-paint walls....) you are in a real pickle. He's not going to want to give you the extra time to get into trouble, and honestly as a parent I'd have to say he's right. But if they're into something that appears reasonably productive and not likely to get you into jail or juvie, maybe you could negotiate.

OK, so I only convinced one other parent about summer camp and ended up going with my son and the neighbor kid. My husband was our second adult (couldn't get the scoutmaster) and off we went.

Tally between two boys: 7 merit badges and two nearly done. The "Best Shot" award for archery and "Most improved" for shotgun. Campsite imspection award and camp achievement award. Neighbor boy met almost all his requirements for 2cd class, his next rank. A total of 17 ticks, about 70 mosquito bites, and two very proud and pumped up Scouts. My husband took Fast Strt and YPP. We both added Safety afloat/safe swim.

The week was not problem-free, we had several thunderstorms, my son's nightmare scenario, and spiders in the tent were the nightmare for the other boy. Tired, scared and cranky boys turned on each other briefly after the spider thing. They got over it, worked it out. My son got into trouble in one class for refusing to write some answers down (I looked it up, the requirement was "tell ....") Hand writing is a terrible problem for him, to the point of this being the big issue that had him in Special Ed for emotional disturbance back when he was in school. He's fluent on a computer, a very fast typist with nearly perfect grammar and spelling. He survived, the counselor survived. A rock in the road of life.

Bonus points: my husband, till now very reluctant to get into this whole Scouting thing, had so much fun he's talking about hanging out at the meetings more...turns out he can and will sing silly camp songs... and I caught him reading the Wood Badge materials....

julia

I'm sorry you're having a crummy time in Scouts. It's not supposed to be like that. But if you're the ASPL, you ARE in a leadership position so you ought to be able to do something about it. What they said above is right - the scouts should be doing the planning. So, you found this forum so you know how to use a computer. Can you use it to find all the Scout camps in your state, and see if there's one that offers a different program from the one you always attend? Then, look at how much the new one will cost, to see if it's about the same - if it isn't, figure out how much extra money you'll need, and make a plan to get it. Then, go to your PLC meeting with all that information and see if it doesn't help. You could even bring the info on two or three of them, and see what everyone thinks. There's also another thread here abotu Summer camp alternatives, you could look at that one too.

It's one thing to say "I'm tired of this camp - do we have to go?" but if you don't have any concrete options in mind you aren't going to get anywhere complaining. If you and the PLC say, instead, "Hey, Mr. SM, look what I found! We can waterski (or whatever you're hot to do). And it's only 10 bucks more that Camp WeDontlikeit, so if we have one extra garage sale this year we'll have the money. And we still have time to register-would you help us go there?" I think you might have more luck than you think. Most scoutmasters would be thrilled to see that much research and initiative out of their PLC.

The other issue - boring meetings. Does your troop use Troop Program Features (TPF)? If it doesn't, you need to ask someone to get it for you, it will explain to you and your SPL exactly how to run a fun meeting and give you about zillion ideas for making the meetings fun. That way you don't have to depend on the troop adults to come up with ideas, face it, we're not the best source. Your troop will do better on advancements too if you use TPF.

IF you can't quit, you might as well do everythign you can to make it fun. Does your dad help with the troop? If no, is that a good thing or not? You could ask him to help if you think it would make it better for you.

Lord Baden-Powell felt swimming was an essential skill for a scout. Being a confident swimmer with respect for the water but no fear of it is empowering for a Scout, and not incidentally might save his life or someone else's near him someday. Assuming no physical disability, I think you need to try your best to impress on the parents how essential this skill is for their son, and offer whatever information or support you can come up with to help the boy meet this requirement. I think speaking to the parents directly might be warranted, although I don't usually like to take the boy out of the loop, but this is pretty important and they might not be aware that his skills are as weak as they are. He might look fine playing in a backyard pool. If he's very out of condition, that could be the problem but if he looks pretty ok and keeps up on hikes, it's probably a stroke efficiency issue that might be easily corrected by a competent instructor.

Do you have any other scouts in similar straits? A month of aquatics emphasis might be just the ticket for all of them, not to mention being tons of fun.

My own son is not much of an athlete, to understate the case, and having had severe asthma virtually his entire life he did not start out as an enthusiastic swimmer (when you know what it is like to suffocate and not be able to empty your lungs to take a deep breath, anything requiring holding your breath just doesn't sound smart). He was probably 9 or 10 before he was a deep-water swimmer at all, far later than his older brother or younger sister. But after working hard on strokes at camp for a week, he managed that swimmer test at age 11. We just got back from camp and he was only a few feet behind me in our swim check - he's 14 now and still not much of an athlete, but he made that test just fine. It is do-able.

Well, I thought I had them convinced - 6 weeks ago I had 8 on the summer camp roster. But due (I think) to the fact that because of a million things happening in June to both me and the Scoutmaster so we did not have regular meetings to get a "countdown to camp" prepared, and also due to the fundraising not going so well (see "assault by scout") - six of them have now cancelled and I will be going with my son and one other Scout (new, not yet Tenderfoot). I'm tickled that the other scout is enthusiastic, mature, and well-behaved so we're anticipating a very pleasant time. My husband is also going, his first summer camp since adulthood. I'm disappointed that we won't have even a whole "patrol" but the boys are going to make a special Camp Patrol flag to take (as luck would have it, one is in our Rattlesnake patrol and the other is a Cobra, neither will accept the other's patrol flag so they are going to make a T302 "Snakes" flag with both logos. I confess to steering the negotiation but I'm not sure they noticed.)

I'm taking Bob White's advice and plan to take tons of photos. We have a COH scheduled for just after camp anyway so that will be a great time for our campers to get their merit badges and hopefully create some excitement for the next year's camp.

Thanks for all y'alls advice.

Julia

Vivid memories of my first campout (in cabins) with my Brownie troop.... Pancakes over our campstove were served at about 11:30 am, after a 3+-hour ordeal. Cleanup extended to 1 pm. We didn't need our lunch food that day, just fast-forwarded to dinner. Mind you, these were 3rd graders.

Two years later, the same group did pancakes with bacon and juice in about 35 minutes, and could cleanup all dishes and pots in 20.

Two more years pass, and oddly, we're back to slower performance because there's more horsing around. But now we have wiser girls who might say in the menu planning phase "hey, we don't want to be cooking all day" - how about frozen waffles?" Or PopTarts. (I bring my own breakfast on PopTart days as I detest them.)

You did the right thing. Two hours isn't the worst performance I've ever seen, in fact, it isn't all that bad. They'll never get it if you don't let them goof it up. This is a classic example of the punishment being inherent in the mistakes (hunger, missed hikes, etc,) so there's no reason for you to think up anything else. If anything like it happens again, my only suggestion might be - and you probably did this - to keep an eye on proceedings and have some discreet consultations with the PL to see if you can suggest ideas to him to make it go better.

Julia

As a female ASM, I find myself in the odd position of being on both sides of this debate! I would be delighted if our tiny troop had another male leader, or two or seven, and I'd be a MB counselor and maybe hang out with the TC with the rest of the wimmenfolks. But right now, we don't. We have a wonderful SM with years of experience hanging around troops but not much SM experience, his wife who is the COR , and a bunch of parents who know somewhere from NOTHING To A Little about scouting yet. So since I am trained (in another troop) and pretty willing, I signed on as an ASM so we could make 2-deep leadership, and it's been plenty fun. I have tried and tried - begged and pleaded - with my husband to get him onboard but although he is a lifetime camper/fisherman/hunter he just ain't going for the scout gig. He helps with support functions and is a good sport about a helper role but is not, repeat not, signing on as a volunteer. I honestly don't know why not, and he won't tell me. I think if he tried it, he'd like it fine. But Scout campouts and such often interfere with televised sports, which are a really big deal to him much of the year. I'd a hundred times rather go to Scout camp than watch baseball on tv, but I can understand why someone else might not see the chance to get sunburned and mosquito bit as a golden opportunity.

As far as whether females coddle the boys too much, I find that in our troop, I am the leader more likely to say "hey, let's go for it" on campouts or activities than the SM; for personal reasons, he tends to be very, very conservative with activities for his sons and by extension for the troop. I would say that between the two of us, I am far more demanding of the boys as far as expecting them to handle their own problems and not being one to jump in to save them from minor inconveniences.

So - I would like to think I'm a good ASM, or am getting there at least, but I still would wish for more male ASM's for my troop.

Both boys are white and Christian, so I don't think there is any real-world basis for issues between them. On the other hand, I'm not at all sure that the aggressor is working in the real world so there's no telling.

The victim's response was to ask his mother and our troop to pray for the aggressor so that no one else would be injured. I was very OK with that. The COR tried to tell his mom that he needs help but I don't think it connected; the boy has been home-schooled for 3 years and somehow I think I have an idea why.

He reminds me a bit of my schizophrenic step-daughter at the same age. Lots of very strange religious beliefs came out of her ill mind, not related to either her mom's faith or ours.

When I win the lottery and no longer have to run a business - or when my kids grow up and I don't have any to play with anymore, maybe I will start that special troop....

A new boy in our troop assaulted another boy. The two boys - and a few others - had been watching TV, taking a break from their labors in setting up a garage sale. Adults were in the front yard holding the fort while the boys cooled off a bit from all the unpacking. One asked the other to move out of the way of the TV, and apparently unhappy with the speed of the resulting action, leapt off the couch and grabbed the other boy around the neck, lifting him off the ground and pounding his head on the door. Other scouts intervened, it took two good-sized teen boys to break the grip. The victim had handprints on his neck. The boy that assaulted the other went out and told his mom (in the front yard) "I did it, I put the infidel into the wall!" He was hissing like a snake during the assault.

We already knew this boy was pretty different, he appears to be borderline autistic or maybe schizophrenic (no eye contact, irrelevant comments in conversation) and his mom told us he was ADD. But we didn't have a clue that he could be violent - his mother didn't tell us anything about that.

A police report was made and EMS was called to evaluate the victim since his head had been banged pretty hard and he'd been choked. One of the witness scouts, a just-crossed over 11 year old who is somewhat timid and physically small was pretty scared. The others were scared too but not as much so, possibly because they are closer in size to the offender. (The victim weighs a big 98 pounds and the other boy is probably 160 or 170)

Not a real good quality Scouting experience for the kids.

Told you all that to ask you this:

When our COR called the council to report the incident, she was told by the district exec that the troop was at fault because there were not 2 adults in the room watching these 11 to 16 year old boys watch TV. (The 5 adults in the front yard didn't count because they weren't in the room. They couldn't help because the assault occurred at the doorway, blocking it.)

My response was Huh? Patrols can hike together without adults but watching TV in a home requires two deep supervision? Does anyone here have a different response?

The CO asked the scout to leave the troop, and since he was new, refunded his registration fees. The boy's mom felt he was being unfairly penalized for "being bigger" than the other boy, and thought this was only "boys being boys." The rest of the troop didn't feel that way at all, and I for one am really glad the CO booted the boy. My own son has an anxiety disorder himself and I'm very glad we happened to be unavailable for this event as my son could really have had a bad response.

On the other hand, the aggressor scout could be well-served by a special scouting unit for youth with emotional disabilities, and I wish we had one available in our council...

Anyway, does anyone have any comments?

OK, I usually try to keep my voting record to myself but I find myself and OGE in complete and total agreement on Jimmy Carter. Too bad humility, decency, and a personal dedication to service to God aren't much in the way of political assets. I'd vote for him again in a heartbeat but I think he has deduced that the presidency was NOT his most effective way to serve his Lord.

HIstory may or may not treat his presidency kindly but IMHO no president in this century (whoops, I mean the 1900's - showing age there....) has ever conjured up as much benefit to humanity out of the post-presidency time. I wish I were informed enough to address earlier times but am hoping the history professor will weigh in instead.

Julia

we don't use the feature-of-the month from the magazine, but our meetings improved and our SPL's stress level was greatly reduced when he and the PLC started utilizing the program feature guide.

julia

I've seen it many times too. I lost a girl from my Brownie troop because she couldn't keep her grades up, so her mom took her out of Brownies. That girl was card-carrying ADHD if I ever saw it, and loved Brownies because she knew her energy would be welcomed and channeled rather than scolded and punished. I've often wondered what became of her, trapped into only doing what she is not good at and prevented from doing the activities at which she could legitimately excel.

Julia

ScoutMom, JmcQuillan - would it be helpful if I observe that I think both of you are right? I can see how each of you might have felt the other's post didn't accept or honor the other's experience - but from this thread and others I think both of you are trying hard to be good scouters with I hope tremendous success. IT looks like JMC hit a real nerve for Scoutmom - and possibly vice versa. If I had oil to pour on troubled waters I would since I think you both clearly have the good of your respective troops in mind and I don't think either meant offense.

I must add that I see some real validity in ScoutMom's observation that many kids (and not just ADHD kids) need activities without their everloving moms there.

That said, as the parent of one ADHD and one OCD child I have to also agree with JMC because if his plan (I'm sorry, is that the right pronoun?) is WORKING and he has successful meetings featuring fun and accomplishment for most participants most of the time (the best you can hope for, really)- Well, there you are! As long as the parental presence is not handicapping the scout in his progress toward being a functioning troop member, I would be OK with it too.

So, please y'all - be friends....

We have a problem in my council that there is NO available list of merit badge counselors. Small troops have no choice but to have parents sign up as MB counselors, and our kids are outa luck if they don't have the skill set needed and it can't be covered at camp.

We've begged, pleaded, and cajoled, they have been "working on a list" for two years now.

Julia

I absolutely agree with jmcquillan that the scoutmaster needs to be there for the whole troop. I'm an ASM so in my troop I would be the logical one to help with a disruptive boy.

The key thing to realize, though, is that after you've cut your deal with the boy it is much less time-consuming to deal with his disruptions, because you only have to say a few words. Once he realizes some success in the group he'll be highly motivated to keep a lid on it and will welcome your help. I guess it goes without saying that when he IS working well the right kind of praise goes a long way.

Right kind: Specific, and about the task. Wrong kind; non-specific and about the kid.

Right: Good square knot, you did it the first try. Right: Good Effort, I've watched you work on that for 10 minutes already. Right: I sure enjoy your company. Right: I have confidence in you.

No room for dispute in any of these. You're talking about YOUR observations and reactions.

Wrong: You're a good kid. Why is saying such a nice thing wrong? Because a kid with low self-esteem will not believe you when you tell him he's a good kid, and he will go out of his way to set you straight by acting out in the very near future. If he was just sitting there thinking about setting fire to the patrol flag and you come along and say "You're a good kid," it sets up a guilt response that makes him need to prove you wrong.

In my personal experience - only about 4 years, much of it with girls - the parents of the problem kids were actually NOT much help in meetings. The child tended to act out MORE with mom or dad to watch, and all too often there was a downward cycle of the parent doing this: Warn 'em, Warn 'em, Warn 'em, WARN THEM, YELL AT THEM, EVERYONE BE AGGRAVATED ... which was worse than the original behavior.

Drives me nuts to have that going on. But some parents do better, I'm sure. Others may have a different experience, and I'm all for additional adult assistance so if it works for you, go for it.

If you do have the problem with a parent being present and NOT being effective with his or her own child, you can always re-assign parents to handle different children. That usually works really well.