SagerScout

Bob - that makes me realize the difference, the new tents are more like fashion fabrics and any decent tailor should be able to work on them. You used to have to go to the awnings guys because they had the heavy-duty machines but my Sears Kenmore can handle the new tent fabrics just fine.

The manufacturer would certainly be the most reliable choice ,as they would have access to the exact zipper for the replacement.

But I have to repeat my warning about dry rot or UV damaged fabric. If it won't hold a patch, don't waste the time or any money. Tents are one of the items that have gotten more affordable in real dollars over the years, I know that the 3 man dome tent we got for a wedding present 19 years ago cost well over 100 bucks then - and served us well for many years, until the afore-mentioned moldy garage got to it. A similar good tent is similarly priced now - but I make one heck of a lot more money now and so do most folks.

Oh yes, Rooster7, we are in agreement on this one (someone mark it on the calendar! Rooster and Sager agree!) It frankly never crossed my mind that the boy and his parents might NOT be in close consultation and agreement when planning such an event.

That said, if it were my own son, I would defer to his wishes on a ceremony such as this, even if they conflicted with my own. After all, he would be the one that earned it. (I've never grasped why families manage to make wars out of weddings, either. Yes, my step-daughter hurt my feelings at her wedding, unintentionally. So what? It was her wedding. It didn't kill me to smile and be polite.)

That story makes you realize why we have to go to training sessions that for many of us seem like celebrations of the common-sense obvious. Sheesh. How many stupid things can one adult teach a couple of kids at one time?

As a GS leader I had a trail riding accident occur with my troop. I had done my level best to follow all guidelines, but the horses had their own ideas. A snake spooked them and it was off to the races with inexperienced riders aboard. Four fell, one was hurt badly enough for an ambulance ride.

Boy, was I glad that I'd exceeded Safety-Wise standards for adult leadership that day, (needed 2, had 3) and filed my plan with my SUD - the equivalent to a BSA tour permit, and had my health history forms on me with authorization-to-treat for all the girls, and had the emergency phone numbers for all the girl's moms in my belt pack, and had the Council emergency number on me, oh, and had my cell phone so I could do something with all that information.

Next time you think the scout paperwork's excessive, picture having one of your troop vehicles blow a tire and roll in the ditch on the way to camp, Now think of yourself standing on the side of the highway trying to remember who's in that car, what medications he's on or what health conditions he has, the phone numbers for the parents, who at the council office you have to notify....

No one's grandma sews? Torn seams are not hard to patch, broken zippers are more of a problem but not all that hard. You're not looking for beauty, just performance.

However, that said, in my area and climate, six-yearold fabric can fall victim to dry rot and if that has occurred, don't even waste the time to thread the needle, it's replacement time. My parents in North Texas used the same heavy canvas tent for 20 years but I've had newer tents literally disintegrate in 4 or 5 years after a few beach outings and being stored in a moldy garage (the only kind of garage available on the South Texas coast).

We have only one boy in our troop who is embarrassed by the uniform. Not incidentally, he is the only boy in public school - the rest are homeschoolers.

The other day as we were making plans to go to the scout canoe challenge to be held in downtown San Antonio, his biggest concern was that someone from school might SEE HIM IN UNIFORM (turned out to not be a problem as troop T's were the UOTD, but we didn't know that at the time of our discussion).

I pointed out that if it occurred, his friends would see him in a canoe, racing on the San Antonio riverwalk, an area normally closed to recreational boating. So they would see him doing something that a) looks like tons of fun and b) they will NEVER be able to do themselves without joining scouting.

He's a highly intelligent young man, and when he looked at it that way he quickly saw that the normal human response would be envy and longing to be him, not scorn, even if scorn were what was expressed.

End of discussion.

I'm guessing he's having trouble fitting in, and agree with those who say a friend in the troop would help. Considering we're now on our THIRD troop, I'm pretty familiar with this problem. My son is, well, sometimes annoying. I love him, but there it is.

I thought for a little while that this troop was going to lose him too and I would have to register my son as a Lone Scout, which would have been OK with him (he does want to make Eagle) but not at all ideal from my standpoint (I want socialization for him).

But as it turns out all I had to do was put two copies of the Troop Program Features in the hands of the SM and the SPL, with a bug in their ear to READ THEM and see if they could use some of these ideas - and the meetings immediately improved. We've now got a new SPL and he's settling in, there were a few weak meetings there, but with the support of the former SPL (now the JASM) he's getting it together too.

One thing that helps: our homeschooled kids are not NEARLY as uptight about what's "cool" and what's not as public school kids tend to be. So they are more inclined to just have fun, even the 15 and 16 year olds think the games are a riot and don't mind getting silly. Also, the SM and ASMs (myself and my husband) all don't mind making jackasses of ourselves and it does keep things lively.

Now, I know you can't homeschool your son and you might have some trouble putting him in a homeschool troop, but the attitude of "let's have fun" is what you're looking for, and surely there are some troops around that have that?

I'm with the "ask the boys" contingent. If they can't agree (one wants his own, one wants a buddy ceremony) go with two and work in a brief recognition of the other at each of them. No sense in forcing the issue and potentially ruining the day for both.

OK, well, maybe OGE's son is a bad example. What I meant was that he apparently got to the point to where he was pretty open about his condition.

What I have observed is that "normal" kids are often more trouble than theoretically "abnormal" kids. I have a girl in my troop that is pretty handicapped (low IQ) but she's no trouble at all; another girl that was a "normal" girl was a giant pain in the you-know-where until she gave up Scouts for basketball.

I've come to the conclusion that God has given us all different gifts, and some teacher/child pairs are just more productive than others. It's not like there's something wrong with that kid or with me; we're just not a good fit. Both my sons had the same elementary school teacher in different years - she loved my older son, my younger almost put her into a mental hospital. This is where a deep bench comes in, so you have ASM's around with different temperaments and hopefully each scout will hit it off with at least one of them. Goes for both the "normal" and "different" scouts. You have to wonder what really happened as I can't imagine a troop taking an autistic boy to camp and not realizing some accomodations and extra support were going to be needed.

You would think the parent should be up front as the child's advocate, but that is not always the case. I personally have seen scouts and others who don't seem to work well with their own parents. (Sadly, some parents don't appear to like their kids very much....) Same kid is no trouble at all to me.

I'm with Red Feather, we can and should do our best to get what help we need to keep kids in scouting when at all possible. Dealing with kids with "labels" of one type or another is part of the package, like it or not. We don't know the story in Kentucky at all; I would hope that it's better than it sounded but you never know.

Nonetheless, as some of you may recall, we had a scout assault another scout in our troop, and he was rapidly removed by the CO as a danger to others. We were grieved, but the safety of the boys comes first, and the offender's mom was in such deep, deep denial about her son's condition that we were convinced no help was forthcoming from her.

On the other hand, we still have no fewer than 7 scouts with severe asthma and 4 to my certain knowledge taking some form of prescription mind-bending medication (including my own son). And the troop gets along just great. So it's not true that kids with health and/or emotional problems can't be good scouts, they most certainly can. In fact, I see more "scoutlike" behavior in this bunch than in the allegedly Normal troops we were in before. By Scoutlike, I specifically mean friendly, helpful and kind.

In another thread, I came down against requiring drug abuse education for scouters but perhaps an optional short course on behavioral psych for handling the top 4 diagnoses a scouter might run into could be a useful addition to the available training curriculum. That way scouters that are philosophically willing to try to mainstream kids with mild problems but didn't feel smart enough could get the help they need to be successful. I believe that kids with severe emotional disorders (suicidal, severe OCD, severe bipolar, stuff like that) would probably be best-served in a special troop with a really good SM with a deep bench of ASMs. I also believe that a SM that just does not want to deal with a particular troubled kid shouldn't have to try; if no ASM is handy with understanding, it might be best for all if the kid relocates.

That said, I would hope that the SM would want to try.

Best of luck on your plan!

Sign up the younger brothers? When selling popcorn, hand out cards with the contact information for your troop. Make a flyer for the school bulletin boards. I like the realtor idea, didn't think of that one. Have a bring-a-friend night and make sure that meeting is tons of fun.

I heard about some older girl scouts hosting a "secret" "just for girls" lockin at a pizza place with games, they got several dozen girls there and THEN told them it was organized by Girl Scouts. Sneaky but several joined - and most said they would not have gone if they'd known it was GS. Sad but true story.

Put notices in the CO newsletter, and in the church newsletters of all the troop members. Contact the kids who dropped out of the old troop shortly after crossing over (I'm betting there were some, just from what you said about the way things were going there.)

thats all I can think of. Good luck, again.

Geez. I camped overnight in my own tent with my patrol at SM training, and never thought a thing about it, nor do I believe any of the gentlemen scouters in my patrol thought a thing about it. I do the same at campouts with the troop, normally setting up at a little distance from the boys and the male SM, mostly so they won't know if I snore and I won't have to listen to the boys talk all night. At summer camp I hung my distinctive hat outside the latrine and showers. No worries.

If I were to lust in my heart for some other scouter, that would be between me and God and I'm sure He and I can keep that under control. I feel confident that you gentleman could do the same. I am unfortunately aware of marriages that have detonated due to scouters getting together but it sure wasn't campouts that caused it.

Like sctmom, this story hits close to home for me as my son also has significant emotional problems. He's not soiled himself, but he has definitely locked up on us in scouts on several occasions.In several cases, teasing has triggered the melt-downs. He's never violent, at least not toward others, but becomes unresponsive. Gandhi's got nothing on him for non-verbal protest. Well, except Gandhi had better reasons.

Support, time, patience, and kindness make happy endings. He's always embarrassed and contrite, and I believe wishes with all his heart that he didn't have this problem. Teasing, impatience and viewing this behavior as intentional make situations that are very bad for all involved.

I have talked to the other parents and scouts in his troop to explain his problem. He's been diagnosed as having an anxiety disorder, possible Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. I explained that under stress, his little pea brain appears to lock up on a compulsive thought, and he's afraid to move for fear he'll act on the compulsion. He's not trying to be bratty when that occurs, he's just trying to get a grip. They understand it with varying levels of tolerance. The example I gave to his partner, who has ADHD, was that it was similar to the way his mind races when not on medication. IF he tries really hard, he can concentrate and do homework anyway, but it's almost impossible for him to make his mind stop racing. So his behavior is sort of voluntary and sort of not voluntary. His buddy understood that right away, and thanked me for the explanation.

My son's never been kicked out of a troop but he's left troops that stress him too badly. Teasing, as I said, was the worst problem for him and he's definitely a target for it. He comes across as a know-it-all. The fact that he's usually right doesn't help at all.

I confess, this is one of the reasons I volunteer with his troop. Being a homeschool troop the parents tend to be rather conservative regarding male/female role models and while I was made welcome, I could definitely feel some questioning regarding why a mom would be jumping in on that scouter thing. (His dad also volunteers for the same reasons, but he's not always available and he's not trained yet. Anyway, I like camping better, and groups of teens don't scare me much....) The issue of independence from Mom isn't a big one to me at his age since he takes care of himself pretty well anyway, and he's gone off with church youth groups with no big problems. There isn't so much of a performance testing situation in church, so he's gotten along pretty well. He did shut down once when asked to wash dishes. It wasn't just having to work - he couldn't bring himself to put his hands in greasy, soapy water. (odd, because he's not a "clean" OCDer, but he really has a thing about this. Has it at home too. ) The youth pastor figured it out and had him dry and put away instead. Yes, I guess that counts as special treatment. Oh well.

Anyway, I hope the Kentucky mom is able to work something out, whether it be in this troop or another. Hopefully she'll pitch in some information a little earlier next time, it seems to me that it would perhaps have been helpful.

I know all about the odd looks and sidelong glances sctmom talks about, but I personally think we oughta be as upfront about this type of problem as we would be about diabetes, asthma (another weight on my poor kid's cross), epilepsy, or a pulled muscle. That's the only way we'll ever communicate the right attitude toward these conditions. Like OGE's son and his unique plumbing problems - just deal with it already.

We have a miscellaneous assortment of what was on sale, and haven't broken anything yet, but it's only been a few items.

Down here, the more mesh the tent has the better. The skeeters are usually too bad to go tent-less, although if I could figure out how to secure the mosquito netting that might work.

The biggest dilemma is whether to risk putting the tent under a tree. The shade is almost always desirable - but falling limbs are obviously not. South Texas trees are not tall, and wind gusts to 40 mph are not unusual if you're camping near the coast.

Last summer we decided to chance it after careful examination of the trees in question. Worked great, except for the night the bird roosted directly over my face.

How do y'all call it? Tree or no tree?

I "hip hip" the hooray for Bob. He's almost always gentlemanly, even when he's wrong - which appears to be a rare occurrence.

And I am disappointed in Yaworski's ornery responses.

We do all want to know how excessive is "excessive." In my case, I also want to know if the discipline was concealed at all. In a bass-ackwards way, I'd feel better if it were not.

If dad said, "Son, get your hind end over here and let me whup it" for some good reason, then does exactly as he promises in view of all to see, I'm probably going to find myself reluctantly with all those on this board who consider that a parental right and/or duty. I personally disagree, I've not used such methods on my kids since they were 3, but at least this parent is trying to teach his son and we do appreciate his interest. I would re-focus the problem solving on how to keep scouting fun for all, since parents don't usually enjoy having to discipline their kids and kids don't generally enjoy being disciplined. How much better it would have been for the time and energy spent to have been used in something more productive, like putting up a tent, building a bridge, or cooking dinner.

On the other hand, if son arrived with a split lip and stiff body, a story about falling in the woods, with frightened a sidelong glance to Dad - I'd notify CPS immediately. Mind you, it wouldn't do a lick of good in my state, where they routinely send children with broken bones home with the parents that broke them - and take other children away from their parents for going to school in dirty clothes - but as Bob correctly said, it is the law whether we like it or not. (The reason I know this won't do any good is that I had to do it for a nine-year old girl. The investigator never even contacted me to ask why I made the report. She visited the upper middle class family and decided it must be ok. And then the employer considerately transferred the family to another state so that the protective services people wouldn't trouble her anymore.)

If that occurs on a scout outing where they might be caught, just imagine what happens at home.

Sorry, folks, I've been away so couldn't let you know that I was never a boy, although I gather the more alert among you already know that. I'm well past the chick stage as well, although fortunately my husband of 19 years still seems to think of me that way. Thank God.

However, I'm delighted to report that I know TWO boys extremely well, since the moments of their birth, 14 and 18 years ago respectively. I'm further pleased to report - without a shred of parental modesty - that although both boys have had emotional problems requiring the intervention of some of the "trained professionals" Yaworski so deplores, and one of them has a diagnosis considered a disabling mental illness - neither of them has NEVER, to my certain knowledge, EVER delivered bullying behavior anywhere close to that described. I know this because I have not allowed them to run wild in the streets, and I have always gotten feedback from the organizations they have been involved with. I may - I do - cut some slack on homework requirements for ADHD and OCD kids, but never on basic issues of respect for others. My position is that mental illness or difference is no excuse for rotten behavior. It may explain it but does not excuse it. (The usefulness of the diagnosis is limited entirely to its utility in treatment, but that's another thread).

If I ever did hear of either of MY sons being such beasts to one another or other boys, I would have the offender in front of a psychiatrist, counselor, or youth pastor so fast your head would spin - after the apology, the providing of a service to the offended boy, and possibly an extended period of being grounded. In fact, I did all of this because of a much milder incident with my Scouting son, when he turned on his camp buddy out of what we finally determined was nothing more than simple jealousy.

I would want to find out why on earth they would want to be so offensive to someone that they didn't really even know, who could potentially have become a friend if they hadn't bullied and insulted him. I would be concerned about such a clear manifestation of feelings of insecurity, and worried that some event that had escaped my parental vigilance had deeply scarred my boys. Why on earth would you insult someone who could have been a friend instead?

Thank God, my boys are both generally more likely to be the ones who stand up for the kids being bullied, and tell the other kids to leave them alone. It gets them laughed at and has in a few cases gotten the older one punched... but I personally couldn't be prouder of them.

Boys will be boys. They don't shower when told, they forget to do their homework and sometimes even fib to stay out of trouble on that, they leave dirty dishes in the sink, they tell inappropriate jokes without checking for a potentially appreciative audience (my husband still does this, but I hope to break him of it before Social Security checks begin). The corrective actions require catching them and making it less pleasant to not do these things than it is to do them.

But I say again: Boys need not - better not - cuss out their parents, "hump" on other children, and torture small animals. That is not "Boys will be Boys," that is "someone get this kid some help." If the parents are clueless, then the troop will have to take whatever actions are needed to make sure that other kids do not suffer because this kid is an insufferable beast. Note that I did not say that the boy must be removed, I still believe that decision should be made by the TC after reviewing all the facts. I do believe he should have been sent packing from camp in disgrace. Shame is an underrated behavior modification tool nowadays.

That's my final, considered opinion, after reading all the posts so far. I will no longer post in this thread, a decision which no doubt will be applauded by many!

TwoCubDad has said it far better than I did.

My son would have been removed from that troop too if I thought that behavior such as was described was considered no big deal.

Proving that I'm not working the way as hard as I should be, I saw the original version of your post, Yaworski, and managed to be both offended and amused as you proved Bob's point so perfectly.

It's odd, too, because despite being both female and saved by grace, I unfortunately must confess that in person, I have been known to swear like a sailor. I know it doesn't reflect well on me, and I am trying to improve my vocabulary. But you know, the nice thing about the computer is that it has a BACKSPACE button so that I can exercise more restraint here. I wish you would too.

I agree with Sctmom, if your kid is ADD you'll see a difference with drugs almost immediately, if he's not he'll just feel jittery and sick. He might not see it himself, though, you have to look at his completion rates on papers.

Our ADD kid made it, mostly unmedicated, through 12 years of public school. Left without a diploma, got 1250 SAT's the first try, and absolutely smoked the GED a month after leaving school (99th percentile on 2 of the tests, down to a poor 76th percentile on one of them). He just started college and he already can see that learning might be fun. Thank goodness public school didn't totally blow out the spark. If I had it to do over again I'd take him out over his objections.

My "normal" kid, lifetime A/B honor roll, is doing her middle school homework. It involves copying 12 paragraphs from her science book. She's physically coordinated so it's boring but possible for her. I'm wondering what's the point? I can easily come up with 10 different ways for her to spend 30 minutes and learn more science. Watching NOVA, for instance! My ADD son would have taken a 0 on that assignment, no doubt at all. My OCD son would have melted down over it - there's no way he could have tolerated that level of boredom. And the point is - there is no point except to teach the kid that learning is dull and must be tedious, and you just have to do tedious stuff. And that's wrong.

My OCD son (14, a first class Scout) is homeschooled. This lets him do math at his analytical speed - fast - and literature work at his emotional level - young. And frankly, he doesn't do any busywork at all. He's peaceful, well-behaved, and a pretty nice kid all around. He's trying to get a volunteer job at the local raptor sanctuary, is soon up for Star, and has been

His OCD flared recently at a Scout event - it was really embarrassing for him, he got mad at his canoe partner and jsut shut down, we couldn't get him out of the canoe for about 30 minutes - but a patient and understanding Scouter got everyone to back off and give him time to get over it. (Thank you, God, thank you, God, for Myrna). I got there, we waited, he calmed down and made a good recovery. He and his partner shook hands and vowed to practice together to do better next time. We explained a little about Brain Lock to the other boys and they were kind and accepting about it, and it didn't ruin anyone's day.

Similar problems in public school would ruin EVERYONE's day, trust me, from the principal to the school cop to the teachers to, most of all, my son's. The more they'd yell at him for shutting down, the worse he'd get, pretty soon he'd be self-destructive.

Gotta go with RobK, liberate him from an environment that is not working for him and is probably downright harmful to him. It's one thing for an ADD kid to try hard and then succeed in school, as it sounds like sctmom's son is (Go! Go! We're all proud of him! ) But if he just can't get it together there he'd be better off at home.

And yes, he's probably gifted. He's also probably got an auditory processing disorder that will make him an outstanding computer nerd but unable to listen to a lecture at all. Online school might work too.

Yaworski, you wrote:

" All of you expect everyone to be nothing but goodness and light. Don't fight, don't fight back, never be angry, don't play rough. But you folks are the same ones who are afraid to go out at night, expect the police to protect you and are willing to send our young men to die in silly places like Somalia and Bosnia. "

I'm not afraid to go out at night, because a) I think most people are pretty nice, and b) I don't mind taking reasonable precautions to assure my own safety, which generally involves avoiding unsafe people and unsafe situations. Where unsafe situations can't be avoided, my precautions involve prayer for a hedge of angels, which I have found to be particularly effective. And pepper spray in my pocket (legal in my state).

I will also fight like a tiger to protect children from abusive situations, with dismaying results I grant you. I guess you would suggest that I was wrong to turn in the Mom who split her 10-year old daughter's lip and put dark purple bruises all over her torso with a hockey stick because the kid hadn't done her homework. After all, kids should be toughened up, right? They need to know the world isn't all goodness and light.

But the most important point that I wish to cover is:

YES. I EXPECT SCOUTS TO BE GOOD. EVERY BLESSED ONE OF THEM. The scout in the example blew it on so many points of the law, I don't think I could list them all.

A SCOUT IS CLEAN

There is a difference between "boys will be boys" and "boys will be insufferable beasts." Boys being boys includes behavior like heaving a football through the window because you thought you could throw it all the way over the house; swiping Dad's tools to make something and forgetting to put them back; eating the entire contents of the pantry and then asking "what's for dinner?"; forgetting to bathe for three days because you're busy with other important stuff like building model airplanes. It doesn't involve this kid's exercise of bullying, obnoxious, harrassing behavior in any way, shape or form.

A SCOUT IS TRUSTWORTHY

Should he be thrown out of the troop? I think that is best left to the TC involved, just because they are the only ones who truly can get the whole story. But should he have been sent home in disgrace? ABSOLUTELY, and the entire troop should have been convened and informed of WHY he was going home. Failure to respect other's property might have been overlooked or punished lightly, but the bullying and making sorta-sexual advances on another's person are not minor matters. The whole troop should know that all elements of this incident were NOT ok, and if the offender has to explain to 20 probably grossed-out boys that he didn't really want to get it on with another scout, that's a-ok with me.

A SCOUT IS KIND

Just because many youth of today appear to be going to H*** in a handbasket doesn't mean SCOUTS gotta go with them.

A SCOUT IS COURTEOUS

And I have to say, I personally have been offended by your comments to Bob White and others on this otherwise pleasant board.

Yaworski, you wrote:

" All of you expect everyone to be nothing but goodness and light. Don't fight, don't fight back, never be angry, don't play rough. But you folks are the same ones who are afraid to go out at night, expect the police to protect you and are willing to send our young men to die in silly places like Somalia and Bosnia. "

I'm not afraid to go out at night, because a) I think most people are pretty nice, and b) I don't mind taking reasonable precautions to assure my own safety, which generally involves avoiding unsafe people and unsafe situations. Where unsafe situations can't be avoided, my precautions involve prayer for a hedge of angels, which I have found to be particularly effective. And pepper spray in my pocket (legal in my state).

I will also fight like a tiger to protect children from abusive situations, with dismaying results I grant you. I guess you would suggest that I was wrong to turn in the Mom who split her 10-year old daughter's lip and put dark purple bruises all over her torso with a hockey stick because the kid hadn't done her homework. After all, kids should be toughened up, right? They need to know the world isn't all goodness and light.

But the most important point that I wish to cover is:

YES. I EXPECT SCOUTS TO BE GOOD. EVERY BLESSED ONE OF THEM. The scout in the example blew it on so many points of the law, I don't think I could list them all.

A SCOUT IS CLEAN

There is a difference between "boys will be boys" and "boys will be insufferable beasts." Boys being boys includes behavior like heaving a football through the window because you thought you could throw it all the way over the house; swiping Dad's tools to make something and forgetting to put them back; eating the entire contents of the pantry and then asking "what's for dinner?"; forgetting to bathe for three days because you're busy with other important stuff like building model airplanes. It doesn't involve this kid's exercise of bullying, obnoxious, harrassing behavior in any way, shape or form.

A SCOUT IS TRUSTWORTHY

Should he be thrown out of the troop? I think that is best left to the TC involved, just because they are the only ones who truly can get the whole story. But should he have been sent home in disgrace? ABSOLUTELY, and the entire troop should have been convened and informed of WHY he was going home. Failure to respect other's property might have been overlooked or punished lightly, but the bullying and making sorta-sexual advances on another's person are not minor matters. The whole troop should know that all elements of this incident were NOT ok, and if the offender has to explain to 20 probably grossed-out boys that he didn't really want to get it on with another scout, that's a-ok with me.

A SCOUT IS KIND

Just because many youth of today appear to be going to H*** in a handbasket doesn't mean SCOUTS gotta go with them.

A SCOUT IS COURTEOUS

And I have to say, I personally have been offended by your comments to Bob White and others on this otherwise pleasant board.

Sctmom, you clearly have a Born To Explore child there. Encourage his explorations as much as possible. Then make sure that he has some opportunity for those kinds of adventures in Scouting. It's a lead-pipe cinch he ain't gonna get it at school.

Oh, and I don't know if my council is special this way, but we have tons of really cool council-arranged events that we can choose to attend. Usually they're pretty cheap, and generally pretty fun. From the lazy leader standpoint it's fabulous - most of the hard work is arranged. Be sure to actually READ the program guide, if one comes home. I send them home with my girls who apparently promptly trash them, so we read it in meetings now.

Bob White seems pretty bright, experienced, and well-read in scouting. That's why I am always eager to hear what he has to say. We don't always agree, although we often do, but he does seem to have the knack of disagreeing agreeably - most of the time. If he has a snappish moment occasionally, and I'm not saying that he has, well, he's human too.

On the other hand, there are other individuals on this board who just can't keep a civil keyboard in their head. I've been guilty of that myself, when tired and aggravated, but do try to keep it under control.

Umm, I disagree that "religion is a belief in God." I would say, rather, that religion is comprised of a set of beliefs regarding the way Man should relate to God, and God to Man. I know a great number of individuals who believe in God and not in religion. Some of these individuals actually self-identify as atheists, despite an actual core belief in some kind of a Higher Power, because they have not found the religion that expresses their own relationship with God. They have fallen into your semantic trap, which I find to be a common one.

I also know a fair number of individuals who appear to believe in religion but not God. They see little benefit to prayer and pray as if they don't expect anything to happen.

I know very few 8 year olds raised in families without specific religious instruction who could possibly figure out their own feelings on this. So I can't imagine why we'd want to exclude them from our Scout troops.