SagerScout

Your $212 a week is about what our girl scout camp runs. The boy scout camps around here are less expensive, but also do not have quite as posh accomodations. (BYOT) The average income around here isn't very high.

Three of the four older scouts in our troop have been to asthma camp but never to BS summer camp. Their experience after their first Freezaree involved all 3 of them being admitted to the hospital for nearly 30 days. So they are not the best salespeople for camp, although are willing to try again. As you might guess, it took a little doing to convince their parents to try this again at all although it's been a couple of years and they have been under better control....

MY son has been to two summer camps and loved them both so he's the one we're counting on for the sales to the boys. HE's also severely asthmatic, BTW, but has been a bit more fortunate with his health.

Julia

I say NO too. As has been pointed out, I think boys and girls both benefit from an environment in which they can just be what they are. I totally agree that boys think they have to lead in co-ed groups, and girls think they have to let them. My daughter (12) already has noticed that it's not cool to be smart, so she tries to hide that at school so the boys won't notice. And I agree that the silly skits and other fun we have with the boys would not be as good in a coed organization.

On the other hand, I DO want to see leaders of both sexes in both organizations. Girls benefit from Dad involvement and I hope boys benefit from Mom involvement.

The current structure is 2 patrols, the SPL is our only Life scout, a fine young man of 16. The PL of the two patrols are the two Star scouts in the troop, twin brothers and brother of the SPL. These 3 boys were appointed by the SM (their dad) for the getting-started phase of this troop, which I personally think was a practical call, but it's soon time to shuffle the deck. My son is a second-class scout, soon to be first class. All other scouts are Scouts or Tenderfoot. We've got 10 on the roster, and are recruiting constantly trying to get to critical mass.

The new-scout/experienced scout patrol cut doesn't seem practical because the experienced scout patrol would be a)rather small, and b) almost all one family. Particulary, putting the twins together in the patrol is probably not a great idea. These older scouts are pretty good about helping the newer scouts with skills.

OK, now that you have a clearer picture, does anyone's advice change or do you have anything else to add?

This one is good for just after a meeting or activity that did not go well for one or more reasons:

"Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement."

I don't know why the numbers are dropping nationwide. I DO know of ONE scout whose parents decided not to encourage continuing in Scouts in favor of youth sports, because they do not wish to teach their son that hating gay men was OK. But one scout does not a trend make.

Talked to one of my older son's friends about it yesterday. He quit a couple years ago, in 10th grade, was I think a Life Scout and OA member. Why quit, I asked? His mother is still active in Venturing. Well, says he, it just wasn't the same anymore. We couldn't haze the new kids anymore, we used to be able to play "catch" with the Tenderfoot Scouts (the Tenderfoot being the ball) and we could have secret meetings and tie up the new kids, and make them run and do pushups until they puked, and stuff like that. Those were just great memories. But now they won't even let us make them sing for stuff they forgot.

So that's why that older scout left. MY thought was that if those things were HIS fond memories of scouting, it's no wonder there aren't many young boys lining up to join.

Der Schlitterbahn is the best water park I've ever been to, and I've been to them in four states including Disney's. It's about an hour from my driveway, and they offer Scout Days every year. Another good reason to be a SCout!

I've been all those places myself - home is currently San Antonio, but we're looking at summer camp at Lake Corpus Christi. I visit Corpus Christi several times a month on business, and on rare occasions am lucky enough to be able to slip a windsurfer in my van and spend an afternoon at Bird Island Basin.

We'll be having elections soon. Our troop is small and new, so it is a lock that we will have young and inexperienced patrol leaders, having already "used up" our experienced scouts. I can already envision them having problems getting their patrols in line. My vivid mental image is of a patrol leader saying "Do this" and a boy about his age saying "NO WAY!" and the patrol leader going to the scoutmaster and saying "He won't do what I tell him...."

I'll be doing at least part of the training. What do each of you think is key for them (or the adults - I'm going to try to train them too) to learn in order to be successful in their new roles?

Bob White - you are such a valuable resource on this board, and I very much appreciate your input. Could you offer me some advice, please?

I'm a member of the United Methodist Church, and as has been noted here, my church is divided on the homosexuality question. Probably most folks here know what side of it I'm on. What would be the mechanism for ME, lowly unit volunteer, to communicate my concerns to the BSA regarding this issue without being thrown out of the organization.

While I think - hope - I meet the role model standard, as does my husband, I am very concerned about throwing gay boys out of the organization for their preferences, at a time when they are already undergoing intolerable stress as they struggle with what has to be a horrible realization. Then, we've kicked out the gay leaders of high moral standards who could be the only ones to show them that there is a way to live with this orientation that does not involve casual sex, drugs, and sleeping in the gutter. There seems to be an assumption - a stereotype - here on these boards that gay automatically means promiscuous or engaging in wild behavior, and this has simply not been my observation at all. I agree that a gay leader that was hooking up with the partner-of-the day would NOT be a good role model, just as the leaders you named who engaged in adultery are not. I also agree that any leader engaging or promoting sexual activities with the boys is out of line. This includes male leaders making crude sexual jokes or crude observations regarding girls with the boys - which I have heard more than once, in more than one troop. As a female volunteer I've been hesitant to say anything, but it doesn't seem appropriate.

So anyway, I am in the position of having to explain to my son that this organization that we both love is, IMHO, plain wrong on this topic. I'd like to also tell him that I'm doing something constructive, not destructive, to express my beliefs on this. What are my options?

Julia

Sctmom is right about the little ones going to summer camp - Girl Scout camp has weeklong summer camps for brownies (1-3 grade). The difference is that they are usually cabin camps, and girls register as individuals or buddy pairs, not usually as a whole troop. There's lots of staff to help out with the little ones. They are armed with homesickness medicines and sprays to keep away the monsters, and there's not usually much problem with either.

Troop camping begins in about 3rd grade for most, for some in cabins but some in tents. By the time they are 5th or 6th grade they should be pretty good at making a menu, shopping list, kaper chart and so on for a weekend campout.

By the time they are Cadettes (usually 7-9 grade) they are Program Aides for camp and may have responsibility as unit leaders for the Brownies. Adults are around, of course, in ample supply, but we mostly sit in our lawn chairs and knit. By this age they are expected to get up and lay the fire and make the coffee for their lazy leaders, and some of them actually do!

A good Cadette or Senior GS troop may take on the responsibility for planning and executing a wide game or service unit campout for a couple hundred people, again with adult assistance.

By the way, I think the reason this works at all is that there is a very big emphasis from the start of the program on giving girls a little responsibility at a time. The boy scout "Transition of power" seems much more abrupt: in cubs and webelos, the adults run it; in boy scouts, the boys run it. Or don't, as the case may be. In Girl Scouts, we constantly offer the girls a little more, little more, little more control. First graders choose the Kool-aid and whether to have grilled cheese or hot dogs; third graders write the whole menu for lunch; fifth graders read the dutch oven cookbook and choose something... and so on. It seems to be a smoother transition.

So, yeah, I was pretty amazed at parents who would worry over little Johny going to camp at an age where I was encouraging my girls to not only go to camp but prepare to run one.

Julia

Thanks for all your support. In our case, we do have the 2 adult leaders we need, or at least I'm pretty sure we do - I'm onboard, and I think the SM will be too. He's got the worst money problems of any of us, one income and three, count'em, three boys in scouting. But if we can't get some more kids to go, I'm not sure he'll be willing to take the week off work and lose even more income on top of having to pay for his kids to go.

If the heat keeps untrained parents who have no scouting experience home, that's pretty ok with me.

WE all know that summer camp is a fantastic, life-time memory making experience ... but why is that so hard for these parents to get?

Maybe I'm just used to the Girl Scouts - overnight troop camping starts in second or third grade and the idea of an 11 or 12 yearold not being "ready" for summer camp is almost laughable. I know girls are different, but I don't think it's that different.

Julia

All levels are "Girl Scouts" - from Daisy Girl Scouts to Senior Girl Scouts.

Its' the boys that break it into cub scouts, Webelos, and "Boy Scouts"

OK, picture this:

Brand new, small troop. 10 total, only 3 are first class or above. Age ranges 11-16.

Found a summer camp that is very reasonable in price ($125)and appears to offer a good program.

Parents were negative on this idea because of cost (remember we haven't had a chance to save all year like most troops, and most of our kids just bought their uniforms and books). I can see their point, and enough garage sales should help with this.

The second reason sort of stopped me. A parent was worried that it would be hot. Well, it's in July in far South Texas, and she is certainly correct that it will be hot. Humid too. And mosquitoes by the dozen, most likely. None of those even crossed my mind as a reason not to go to Boy Scout camp!

Can anyone offer a suggestion on a practical approach here?

Wow, what a cool site! Thanks very much. I have to recommend that everyone click on this link!

Julia

I thought from my reading that if someone is signing up as a volunteer merit badge counselor that the membership fee would be waived.

My TCC tells me that in our council there is a $10 charge for each counselor signed up. Seems a little rough to try to convert someone who is just trying to be helpful into a paying scouter....

Is this one of those "it used to be one way, but just changed" deals? Or am I just imagining things?

Thanks for the link, that gives me some more info for the troop to factor into their decision.

julia

Ed and Mike - about having new scouts come out during the day to participate - Just had an idea that might help Mike out with the problem of keeping up with them. Require the "day-trippers" to be essentially a separate unit, naturally requiring 2-deep leadership. So two someone elses (probably an ASM and a parent) will be responsible to gather them up, get them there at a given time, and get them home at a given time. I think you are absolutely right not to want individual scouts wandering in and out, transported by their miscellaneous parents. That way lies insanity!

Socializing IS a skill that scouts need to work on, and is my primary reason for wanting my son involved. However, IMHO older scouts "going off on their own and socializing" isn't exactly what we had in mind for a scout troop. Older scouts going off and socializing and always excluding the younger scouts from their group can contribute to the dropout rate for the young scouts.

We're trying to teach the younger kids social skills, and if they only learn to exclude kids that aren't their age, we're not passing on the skills we were hoping for!

That said, I don't think it is fair for the older scouts to only be used as teachers for the younger scouts - they need fun and challenge themselves. I know that's why troops put in the high-adventure patrols but as pointed out not all older scouts have a burning desire for high-adventure.

IT's a difficult balancing act and I'd love to hear more about how different troops accomplish it.

Juliette Gordon Lowe said something along these lines: " A scout meeting should have both fun and accomplishment. IF it can only have one, it should be FUN. That way the girls will come back for the accomplishment."

When looking at Bob White's survey findings, I thought of this....

Thank you both for your replies. I'll bring both suggested methods of reproduction before the troop and see what they think. Screenprinting sounds very cool but kinda hard, but several scouts in this troop have an interest in textile arts so it might be the winner of the vote -

I was surprised at the loose control of the art, GS are much stricter, but I'm happy about it!

Thanks again.

Oh, and one more thing: You said that it has been difficult to get these parents onboard with the boy-led concept. I strongly believe in boy-led and became an ASM in order to promote that concept within my son's existing troop. The reason I decided I needed to do that is that I had already seen 2 other troops, and in each of them "boy-led" was not working for different reasons.

In the first, "boy-led" meant meetings were ALWAYS chaotic, disorganized, and seemed to have very little point or accomplishment. Planning, if any, was done by a couple of the experienced scouts, while the rest of the scouts swung from the chandeliers. The "fun" part of the meeting for most of the older boys seemed to be rassling, teasing, and harassing the littlest members to establish their superiority. I didn't see much in the way of real leadership as far as helping the younger kids with rank requirements or anything else. Just playtime with the teacher out of the room.... And that troop didn't need any new adults- they made it very clear that all the jobs were already assigned.

In the second troop, things were a little better because there was a scoutmaster that did believe in boy-led and he was really a great guy. However, that troop had a very serious deficiency in that the older boys (15 and 16) were real SNERTS - not the kind of 15 year-old I'm trying to raise. They were vulgar and foul-mouthed, enjoyed bashing any kid in scouts or at school that they perceived as "gay" (of course this was tolerated and even encouraged and participated in by one of the ASM's), and used name-calling and physical strength to control and intimidate the young scouts. Sorry, I don't feel that that is leadership! The SM knew of the problems and I believe was genuinely trying to work on them, but couldn't get it done fast enough to make my son want to go to troop meetings. My son has an anxiety disorder, so I realize he's a special case. But not very many kids would enjoy what these older boys were dishing out.

Of course, I sincerely hope your troop does not have these kinds of problems, but if it does, be aware that these kind of issues might easily cause a parent to think Boy-led? Shmoy-led! Someone needs to get these kids in line! and they'd be right. The difference between scouts and school is that in scouts it is their own job to do it, not the teacher's.

I guess I just have a different standard for how teens should treat each other and the adults around them than most of today's society. I like to see respect, not kow-towing, but courtesy and respect. So many adults want to "teach respect" by bullying kids ("Don't backtalk me, son, or I'll whup your wimpy little candy butt, I'm still your father (or mother) and I can still take you...."), and then they don't get it when the kids get to their teens and act like bullies. I treat my kids with respect and lo and behold, they give it back!

Well, you WILL lose them and their boys if you don't find a way to put them to work. If the parents feel unwelcome, the boys will be outa there soon. But with 10 new boys, surely you can find something for them to do? Especially after they all go through scoutmaster training? (very essential)

Do they bring some merit badge expertise to your troop that you didn't have before? Could you sign 'em up as merit badge counselors, and if they are a tight-knit group, perhaps they would like to work together on setting up some sort of a merit badge university event that would benefit the whole troop.

Or perhaps you could put them on as ASM's and use their enthusiasm to allow some additional patrol camping events that might not have fit into your schedule before.

ON the being Type A - no offense, but you sound like you're kind of worried about losing control yourself.... That said, a good set of troop bylaws requiring ASM's to be BSA trained and explicitly explaining your troop policies and operating procedures would probably help keep them under control.

Thanks to your alert, I snagged that 6x shirt from ebay.

You're right about being ignored in expensive stores but offtopic, one time I was in Neiman Marcus in downtown Dallas, the most fancy of the fancy stores - and I was about 17 or 18, did not have the price of a hot dog in my ragged jeans (or anywhere else in my posession!) and was waited on in the ladies department as if I were visiting royalty. It made quite an impression.

Julia

Thanks to sctmom's alert, my scout will shortly be the proud owner of a genuine Boy Scout uniform shirt that will hopefully fit him or at least be close enough where a little tailoring will do it.

thanks to everyone that chipped in to this discussion.

Julia

I'm one of those with heartburn over the cost of the full uniform and the requirement to have every cotton-picking item. That said, I agree with the response that says "earn it," as that is one of the goals of the program to teach kids that even high goals within their grasp.

I agree that scouting is not more expensive than many youth sports. The part that might be missed is that many kids, including mine, know not even to ASK about the sports that have those kinds of costs associated with them. I think youth sports are great for many kids, my nephew is a starting pitcher for Sam Houston State (notice proud aunt brag) but for my own kids, we decided scouting gave us a bigger bang for our buck.