SagerScout

On the volunteers issue, visit the local roundtable and seek out some older Boy Scouts with fond memories of cub camp. If you're lucky, you might even get a parent or two with them. I know my son (15) is looking forward to volunteering at cub camp this summer, as he's passing up both a church retreat and a beach campout to attend. And don't rule out the boys that seem a little ADHD, might not be a leader in their own troops yet - they are often very much in touch with what's fun and what's not, and can do very well in a leadership role with younger kids. Just be sure to make your expectations clear.

Julia

Thanks, Bob White, I was indeed confused but am no longer. So does the venture crew require a CO and a separate charter?

OK, I cannot conceal it. My whole idea of naming the adult patrol is to try to get the adults to focus on their own knitting so that they will get out of the boy's way. I can't imagine competing with the boys as such, although if they choose to take it as a challenge that our tents are up before theirs and our area looks neater than theirs, that is perfectly all right with me. We don't really have a functioning patrol with elected leadership.

OK, guys, fess up. What is the name of your adult patrol?

Geezer patrol?

Dunlop Patrol? (patrol flag clearly showing an adult with what dunlopped over the belt...)

What's the best name y'all ever saw? Because I want to steal it.

julia

OK, Bob White's response inspires a question that has always bugged me.

Two-deep leadership equals two adults at patrol meeting. OK, I'm down with that, it's just like the girl scout rule.

But for a merit-badge counseling: Two-deep leadership can equal one adult plus 2 scouts. Now, that seems OK to me too. But it isn't the same as the other two-deep rule. What's up with that?

And while we're on the subject, how exactly do patrol meetings without adults present occur? Most of the parents in our troop would never consider letting their boys attend a meeting without a parent around, much less a campout or even a day hike. (I would, and one other would. Unfortunately our sons are in different patrols.)

One of the young men in my son's troop wants to start a Venture crew. It makes sense for several reasons, I think his main motivation is the opportunity to involve girls, but he's also 16 and looking at only a couple more years as a boy scout and he doesn't want to give up the "fun" yet. (I'm having fun as an ASM but he doesn't know that.) His older brother is 17 and the "end" is near for him also...we think his Eagle COH will be this summer, and although he's not going anywhere yet, I'm too aware that the months add up to years in no time. We have other scouts in the troop in the 14-16 age range, at least three of whom would be interested in either the girls or the adventures or both. I wasn't a scout but at 14 or 15 I did take several canoe-and-camping trips with my older siblings and some of their friends, without our parents, and we had a complete and total blast. That's the sort of thing I am imagining Venturing would provide, only perhaps with some additional adult oversight.

My only concern is that IMHO his father, our scoutmaster, already exerts too much influence and veto power over the troop's activities. Now, I understand some practical limitations, like Dad has to work for a living (TWO jobs, hard ones, and my hat is off to him as I think he is a good role model for a loving parent that takes care of his family). His sons are high-ability boys and I think the world of them. But because of their severe allergies and asthma, coupled with a family living situation in which they help out their aging grandparents, they have not really had what I would describe as "normal" teen opportunities to get away from their family and try their wings. On the other hand, they have learned volumes about caring and I have to stress how much I admire the family, including the scoutmaster, for its service orientation.

But I associate Venturing with some level of - well, adventure - and these boys have never been to summer camp alone, have had little short-term camping experience and nothing remotely resembling wilderness experience, never had to really make their own plans and live with the results as their dad has always been there to tell them what gets loaded in the car and make sure nothing gets left behind. Dad makes it clear with tone of voice and facial expressions that he'd be worried and/or offended if the boys wanted to go to camp without him, and they are good boys that don't want to hurt their father and so they decide "on their own" that they don't really want to go anyway.

At the campouts we have had I try gently to get the SM to sit down and shut up - I hope I've been gentle enough, I don't want to offend him or be out of my place as a female and ASM, but it bugs the socks off me to have him telling the boys where to go, what to unload, and where to put it when they have perfectly capable boy leadership that could and should be handling it. I have to do the same thing with my less-trained husband, BTW. For instance, when the kids were deciding what to do for a Dutch oven cookoff, I think I had to say "Whatever the boys want will be FINE" about 200 times. My husband and the scoutmaster wanted the two patrols to enter one entry, on the premise that they wouldn't be able to handle doing two - and were really trying to steer the decision. The boys wanted to enter separate entries by patrol, with my help they prevailed and we won 1st and 4th. Cherry cobbler and vanilla ice cream, in case you're wondering. The ice cream came in 4th, to the disappointment of that patrol. But that's the point, isn't it? To learn that sometimes you win, and sometimes you lose, and the real fun is in the doing anyway.

So, ok, to get my rambling post back to the point - as an ASM in this troop, what could I do to help a new Venture crew succeed and offer actual real adventure? I guess I'm trying to figure out how to get the SM to take dsteele's option 3.

If you can find a thrift-shop pair of shorts the right color that will go on ok - without having to zip them up, we're just worried about the rear view - it's a matter of about 20 minutes with a scissors and sewing machine to put in a maternity panel in the front. You don't even have to do a very good job since it will always (we hope) be hidden with your oversized shirts. I modified some less-than-favorite jean shorts this way eons ago when I was pregnant and it was very easy.

I'm in the camp that says good on you to this boy.

I am wondering how much adaptation of requirements was given for cycling, hiking, and camping. My son, who only has asthma and NOT c.f. (thank you God, we thought he had it for a while as an infant and it scared me to death), has problems with the physical rigors of these and a few others. I know that alternate badges are offered for Eagle for those who cannot meet the requirements of a badge - but that would mean he hasn't earned them all.

Just curious. It does not seem out of line for him to have earned all the other ones, since I imagine time management is critical to him in a way that the rest of us can't conceptualize. I would guess he doesn't watch much TV.

Also a Certified Industrial Hygienist (small world, eh? - thanks for explaining it) I used to work as a wage slave, spent 9 years in a consulting firm that did gov't contracting for DOD and spent other years as a corporate SHE director (safety, health, environment).

Now, I work out of my house as an independent consultant, still quite full-time or perhaps a bit more than full-time. My 15 year old Star scout is home schooled - thankfully, he doesn't need much teaching intervention. My 13 YO daughter is in public school; and my 19 YO son is in jr. college but still living at home. In my spare time I'm both ASM for BSA troop 302 and leader for GS Troop 947. Then there are the 5, soon to be 6 grandchildren with which my 3 step-daughters have blessed me, all living in our same city. I confess, my house isn't very clean. But I'm going to clean it just as soon as all the kids and company leave - it's firmly on my schedule for 2008.

Hubby scouts too, but doesn't read this board. He's a school bus driver. (Folks, do NOT run the stop arm - it makes him crazy...)

Eagledad -

In a lot of ways, in our society as it now exists, I think it is easier for a woman to model self-sufficiency and independence and camp skills - the "masculine" traits - than it is for a man to model the nurturing traits more often associated with the "feminine" side. However, it can be done to everyone's benefit. One of the finest Girl Scout leaders in my area is a dad. His wife is sadly quite severely disabled with ALS, and it has thus fallen to him to be the Girl Scout dad for his daughters. He's great. His troop loves him. His daughters are growing into some of the sweetest and loveliest young ladies around. (Robert, I don't know if you read this board but go ahead and blush if you must - you are the greatest. )

For all those that wonder, he is a BYOT dad (bring your own tent) and no one that knows him has ever had a moments concern about him camping near the girl's units. Our camp does designate "men's" latrines when there are men on a campout.

If we could register another dozen men like him the program would be infinitely better off. But I really don't know where we could find even one more, at least right now. Maybe, though, things could change for the better as he blazes a trail...just as some ornery women that I've never met blazed the trail for me in the BSA a few years ago.

Julia

bmchugh -

You are right, I was responding to a later posting than your thread-starter. The conditions you describe are just about exactly what I described as those that would make me feel discriminated against. Johnsned's post explicitly said that the sleeping arrangements were described in the course materials, which to me was the salient point - it offered fair warning and would allow you to make your own choice.

At any rate, congratulations on rising above this disheartening experience and finishing your ticket anyway.

julia

I second the advice to go to CPS, if you are quite sure that the council will not respond.

Now, now, scouters. Even though I personally am fairly thin-skinned about the female discrimination thing, being female and all, I don't feel offended by the conditions Johnsned outlined, for the simple reason that he says it is stated in the course information. Warning given - like it or not, there it is. I can choose to attend under the conditions described or I can choose to stay home and try to make the next course. Either way, it's my choice.

Thank you, fellas, for your support of women in the BSA, and I do appreciate it, but as far as I personally go you may reserve your outrage for another case.

I've not been to wood badge yet but in SM training I've camped with an otherwise all-male patrol and just set up my tent next to the gentlemen (and I do mean gentlemen, they all truly were....) with no comment or concern from anyone, as far as I know. Didn't bother me, I guess it didn't bother them, it isn't against my religion and I hope it wasn't against theirs as I would not want to even accidentally cause someone to violate his religious beliefs.

Where I could maybe see getting all offended is if I were already there, tent half-up, and someone THEN said in a scandalized tone "You can't camp HERE! You're too close to the MEN!" Or if the actual activities were designed to exclude women or put them at a competitive disadvantage (peeing contest, anyone?). Or if I were sent home as too fragile to sleep in the outdoors. But if it's just a matter of walking to another site at bedtime, it wouldn't bother me all that much, especially if fore-warned as apparently the participants were in Johnsgren's example.

I don't think the kosher kid example applies as written, but if a camp were billed as a camp primarily for Jewish kids, with a Kosher kitchen promised, I would not expect my Christian sons to go and raise the roof over the menu - I'd tell him that there were different rules for food at this camp, and he was to eat what was given him if he liked it, or not if he didn't or wasn't hungry, but without offering anyone any static about it. Simply a matter of learning to live in a civilized society.

Now, y'all all make up, ok? We've got important Scouting to do - games to plan, menus to work out, and camp to schedule....

Parents should not be directing troop activities at all. Neither should you as scoutmaster. If that is your concern, I'm guessing you have reason to worry that this is already occurring. Your biggest concern should be how to convert the parents from leaders to support staff so that the boys have a chance to be the leaders.

A scout in our troop was told by the Eagle board in emphatic, no-argument-allowed terms that neither he nor any other boy in the troop was to touch so much as a powered screwdriver in the completion of his Eagle project. Manual screwdrivers only. I am not making this up.

This is the same council that jumped on us for failing to have 2 adults in the living room supervising scouts - age 13-16- that were watching TV on a break from a troop garage sale. The adults were manning the sale in the front yard, 10 feet away. I'm not making this one up either.

Since said project involves building raised wheelchair-accessible planting beds for a nursing home and tilling 140 feet by 10 feet flower beds, it seems to me that it dumps an awful lot of work on the parents and other available adults that could just as well be done by the Eagle scout and the team he has assembled - several of whom, I may point out, are nearly grown men themselves. I found it absurd for the council to tell the three life scouts in our troop, all of whom are very mature, over 6 feet tall and 200+ pounds, that they are not "big enough" to handle a power drill. All three have worked construction projects with their dad since age 13 or so. My own son (age 15, not one of the 3 mentioned above) is allowed to use all our power tools with next-room supervision, except the circular saw which requires in-room supervision.

SOOOO, how do y'all suggest I correct this considering he's already been given very strict marching orders on this issue? The first workday is scheduled for Saturday. It is now Thursday. Rapid replies very much appreciated.

And BTW, we sure could use some boy-help with the power tillers too.

julia

We were told this also when my son was a Webelo. It didn't make sense to me after reading the fundraising guidelines, which I thought were fairly clear about providing goods or services "at a fair price."

That said, we followed our council's instructions and went on the "donation" basis. And were surprised to find that we made enormously more than we would have had we established pricing -$200 in a matter of a couple of hours, on probably no more than $75 worth of cupcakes, brownies and such at normal bake sale pricing. Yes, a few folks (mostly young children) scammed off with giving a nickel or penny for a cupcake. But these were overwhelmingly outnumbered by the gentlemen who stuffed folding money into our jar - up to a couple of tens and one twenty. Plus, some donated and declined their goodies ("I'm dieting" or "diabetic" - "give it to the next child that wants one and hasn't any money..."...which instruction we followed.)

So it ain't necessarily a bad thing.

Julia

Our local Baptist church is a stong supporter of Scouting and hosts the local roundtable.

Our CO, a homeschool support group, is "morally supportive" but is a shoestring operation itself run by and for people who are for the most part struggling to get by. Contrary to popular belief, homeschoolers are NOT usually independently wealthy, many if not most are one-modest-income families rather than one-good-income families. My family is not the norm as we have one-and-a half incomes and one of them is pretty good, making us positively wealthy in this outfit.

So while they hold the charter, they are not chipping in with change or recharter fees or anything like that.

We just finished the GS cookie sale and I have to say, pushing those cookies is a heap sight easier than selling popcorn. The troops locally don't keep a big % but the council does very well indeed. And even a small percentage times a couple thousand boxes can add up for a hardworking troop. Didn't describe mine this year, but hey, we'll just go cheaper places.

It is absolutely true that people seek you out - my former employer from 1999 tracked me down for his Trefoil fix (and that's not even the most popular cookie!)

Meanwhile, my son struggles to sell even a minimum quantity of popcorn. We're eating quite a bit of it ourselves. Now, he doesn't have the people skills my daughter does, but still the difference in "sell-ability" of the product is pronounced. However, his troop made a quick 200+ with a car wash. We wear troop T's for those.

Julia

I was hoping Bob White would have an actual book answer. I know the book answer in Girl Scouts - it goes by age, period, regardless of developmental

delays or the reasons for the delays. I have a Senior Girl Scout in my troop who is significantly delayed (she's 16, reads at maybe 2cd or 3rd grade level), doesn't matter, she's still a Sr, wears the uniform of a Sr., works on IPP's like a Sr, is a Program Aide like a Senior. Activities are modified to fit her abilities - she doesn't read well, but understands oral language much better. So other girls read stuff to her when necessary. Written assignments are simplified if needed. Where she has strengths, she does the work just like any other senior - for instance, she's perfectly competent in child care and first aid, although it took longer for her to learn. She does her best at all times and is a great Scout. Unfortunately, she's also gorgeous and her company is requested by young men nearly every Friday night (our troop meeting night).

This seems to me to be a pretty good approach, and I don't find it especially hard to execute as a troop leader. It doesn't degrade the maturity of the individual - I mean, retarded adults are still adults, you can't pretend they are large children. In the case of the boy you are discussing, he's nowhere near as out-of-sync as this girl - a couple of years behind academically is really barely worth mentioning. The only place I could see it being a big issue would be in some of the merit badge work, and since he would choose his own merit badges with consultation with his SM, he could easily have it suggested to him to start off "slow and easy" with the badges that are less academically demanding while his skills catch up with his age. Sounds like it won't be too long a wait with a good foster family willing to work with him.

All that said, I do agree with Bob that it is important that the unit he enters be willing to deal with any behavior issues that might arise from his apparently difficult past. Behavior wasn't mentioned as the problem but it wouldn't be surprising to see problems crop up here. However, I do not agree that a Webelos to Boy scout plan is ideal for the following reasons: 1) About the time he gets used to Webelos he's going to cross over anyway, like it or not, could be more confusing to him than to a boy with a more stable background; 2 )Webelo's leaders are not necessarily any more likely to be good with this situation than a good SM, why have to break in 2 adult leaders to his needs within a year? and 3) he's most likely got enough trouble and teasing at school for being behind, why subject him to more when you could help lift him up by telling him he can run with the big boys now. Because he most likely can, and keep up just fine.

Too bad he's in another state, we'd take him in T302 in a heartbeat.

I know not all parents are like me, but MY kids had to learn to swim comfortably in deep water without aids such as noseclips or goggles before I let them go out in a boat or to friend's swim parties. It was a parental requirement, not unlike the requirement to do homework or clean their rooms. My reasoning was that a panicked child can manage to drown with a flotation aid on, and a calm one can survive even without particularly good swimming skills. That meant that they had to get over the wet face fear.

My three children accomplished this level of competence at the ages of 4 (first son), 2 (daughter), and .... um, about 10(middle son). Kids are VERY different. The middle one still doesn't want to windsurf at age 14. Too much chance of getting dunked. Younger daughter, older son both closely resemble fish.

So OK, if the determination is that requiring "no goggles or noseplug" is adding a requirement, I don't see that the counselor has a choice. But I'd sure keep tryiing to get the boy more comfortable in the water, suggest more water activities to the parents, a water park trip for the troop...whatever it takes....

Here in South Texas most lakes and rivers have the evil amoebae in them - warm water helps them grow and thrive. We sail, waterski and canoe anyway, but do definitely advise not snorting the water. That said, a waterskiing spill will force water into any number of unpleasant places, so there's a certain level of daredevil associated with these water sports.

Oh, yes, and I did experience more than one incident in which a more sensitive female could have taken offense earlier in my career:

1) Theoretically competitive interview for a field tech service job - asked repeatedly how my husband would feel about me having to go out "drinking with the boys" to help the chemical company's tech service operations. My competition - a man - was only asked how he'd feel about a 10% raise? For the record, my employment history at the time had three five-star reviews on it with maximum raises, he had several reprimands for various offenses including two-hour lunches and failing to meet deadlines.

After a couple more years with this company, and continued very good reviews, observation of the upper echelons led me to believe that the glass ceiling there was set pretty low. I voted with my feet, leaving for greener pastures, and noted with interest and amusement that the company lost millions in a EEOC lawsuit in which a small herd of female employees reported very similar experiences in about the same time frame as my employment there. Since I personally had not suffered any economic losses, due to my refocussing of my career, I did not bother to join their suit but was not sorry to see it succeed.

2) Although I am not in any way, shape or form a sex kitten type. being a life-long tomboy, not especially pretty or well-endowed, wear minimum makeup as I consider it a waste of time, and usually wore jeans and tidy camp shirts to work - I experienced harassment from an employee in the form of a barrage of unwanted love letters, sort-of stalking type activities, and other unsought and undesired attentions. I tried multiple times to deflect and defuse the situation but did finally have to seek supervisory intervention. Turned out the fellow had a history of this type of problem. The boss REALLY explained to him the situation in short English words (one more strike and you are out the door...) he didn't talk to me at all for about a month- kinda uncomfortable since he reported to me - and then he apologized and we became very good friends after that. He was a good worker, too.

That was a really good boss. Dave, if you're out there, way to go...

It has improved considerably over the past 20 years. Of course, I now own my own business and have no boss but myself- that helps too...

I'm female and hopefully less likely to be punched out by a drunk. I might out-and-out say it " That's NOT funny." Or I might use the frosty glare approach, a more refined version of communicating the same thing. Irrelevant who said it.

On the last situation, of course Joe honors his real bosses' instructions and observes the Jewish holiday, after first doing his best to cover his absence to do his duty to his employer. If he gets a black mark on his review, he climbs up the management ladder as far as necessary to fix it. If that doesn't work, there's no end of attorneys willing to help out, or depending on Joe's qualifications, he might make his point better by finding a better employer elsewhere. I figure if your employer wouldn't want to fight to keep you, you are in the wrong job anyway. (That said, when market forces conspire to make even good employees unemployed, as is the case now, great personal stamina, insane optimism, intense creativity and immense initiative are needed to find and land the right job...so pray for your friends who are seeking work. )

The games and physical activity at the first of the meeting may actually be working against you as many kids that age have trouble settling back down. Their slow-down switches are disconnected. I suggest you re-structure the meeting in this way: Make sure the body of the meeting allows a reasonable level of motion. This means boys change their positions in some way every 10 minutes, 15 at the outside. In other words, stand at attention for flag, of course, then on one foot for announcements, then sit down for craft activities, then allow them to work standing or sitting or crosslegged on the floor for knots.. and so on. Then put the rowdy games at the END of the meeting and make sure they know they will be happening then - assuming you get finished with what you need to do. Put up a poster listing the checkpoints of the things that need to get finished before game time and visibly check them off as you go. Don't forget clean-up comes BEFORE games. You can put estimated times by the activities if there's a visible clock in your meeting place.

The boys will then police each other since everyone will want to make sure they get to play.

Glenn- you sure sound like a nice guy! Thanks for being concerned for the comfort of your women volunteers. Here's how I see it as a woman volunteer myself -

I think Laura's points are valid - a mom in a sweatsuit wrapped in a sleeping bag is not likely to stir the fantasies of any teen boys, and in an emergency situation such as a blizzard coming in and extreme cold common sense should prevail.

However, for routine winter camping, I think female scouters should "Be Prepared" with their own lodging and sleeping gear. I don't wish any boys or men on this forum to take offense, but I'd much rather have my own place anyway. You can laugh at my air mattress all you want, but it keeps me comfy and warm.

Julia