Rick_in_CA

Which reenforces my belief that the controversy wasn't really about gays, but about religious pluralism. And why Trail Life has adopted a policy on gays that is almost the same as the new BSA one, but they only allow Christian leaders (and only ones that are the "right kind" of Christians).

You guys do know that secular humanism is not the same as atheism? While many atheists are secular humanists, not all secular humanists are atheists (though there are some secular humanist organizations that are explicitly atheist). So it's very possible for Charles Schultz to have been a secular humanist that also believed in God.

I have run into scouters that don't like female webelos den leaders (as one said: "Ideally, the CM, ACM and webelos den leaders should be male, and the other den leaders should be female"). Maybe that is what is going on? Your girlfriend really needs to talk to the CC and COH and find out what is really going on. How big is your pack?

Actually it doesn't use the term "legal". From the latest GTSS:

True, there are some faiths that offer a religious emblem program that isn't recognized (Unitarians, Wiccans, etc.). However, there are others that don't have one either because they are too small in the US, or because they aren't organized enough. Now the Unitarians are fine with interfaith worship, and I don't know the Wiccan stance on it, but if you come from a tradition that doesn't allow it, and doesn't have a religious emblem program, you are SOL. Plus, the requirement says "with the den leader". What if the den leader is from a faith that forbids interfaith worship? Is that going to be a problem (I really don't know)? I read somewhere that this new emphasis on "faith" is a bone that national is trying to throw to the religious conservatives after the membership vote. I think that is a mistake, because it won't work. They won't be happy unless the BSA throws "completely nonsectarian" over the railing. We have Muslim and Hindu scouts in our pack, I'm worried that we may loose some of them over this. The language in the requirements is very Christian, even if the meaning isn't so much.

My understanding is that the requirements listed in http://www.scouting.org/filestore/program_update/pdf/Appended%20Requirements.pdf are the final ones. We have a diverse pack, in a diverse area. I know we are going to have parents that will have problems with the new faith requirements. It reads to me like the authors didn't consider non-Christians when they wrote them (or did, but went with "who cares?"). This is cub scouts, not Sunday school. The faith components belong in the family. If I am reading things correctly, if we have a cub scout from a faith tradition that doesn't have a recognized religious emblem program, and doesn't allow interfaith worship, they can't earn either the webelos rank or arrow of light.

GSUSA is an organization with national presence, while the BPSA is a tiny organization (in the US at least) with little presence that few people had heard of (I only know of it because I read this forum - as far as I can tell, there isn't a single BPSA unit in California). So it is a mistake to point at the fact that people aren't switching to the BPSA as evidence that they wouldn't switch to an open GSUSA. Of course, it isn't evidence that they would either.

Peregrinator, you implied that the UUA was being underhanded and dishonest with it's actions. The record clearly shows that to not be the case.

I think we should allow girls in at all levels, but leave it up to the charter orgs on whether to allow them in for their units (which is how the UK and Canada did it if I remember correctly). This is how venturing works today (crews can be boy only or coed - it's up to the charter org). As GeorgiaMom has said, families with both sons and daughters can find it difficult to support the program as they have to split their time. At recruiting events for our cub pack, we keep getting asked "can my daughter join too?" The BSA is one of only something like sixteen scouting programs in the world (out of some 160 members on the WOSM members list) that isn't coed (we share boys only status with countries like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Zimbabwe, etc.). I also don't get the idea that if we let in girls, suddenly we have to stop running around, camping or doing other adventurous things. The girls want to go on adventures as much as the boys (at least the ones that will join a coed BSA)! The biggest threat to the scouts being adventurous are the safety rules from national (can't climb a tree without a helmet and full suspension harness operated by a certified COAP instructor), not girls.

All the letters can be found at: http://www.uua.org/re/children/scouting/162788.shtml. So no, it wasn't underhanded or cowardly.

I'm curious. I'm not an expert on Buddhism, but what "transcendent higher power" do they believe in?

Sounds cool! Got any pictures?

Interesting. Thanks for sharing it. This reminds me of an essay that is part of the UUA religious emblem program (and can be found on the UUA website). I don't think they would mind me reproducing it here. I like this very much, but of course, it's from my faith tradition. Your mileage my very. When Others or You Say “God†By Rev. John. A. Buehrens If you are like most people, you are probably puzzled at times when other people use the word "God." That's not surprising. Different people use the word at different times in very different ways. Some are angry, cursing: "God dâ€â€n it!" Others just feel helpless: "God help us!" Some feel awe: "God, how beautiful!" Others feel glad: "Thank God for that!" Some say "God" only in worship or in prayer or in private. Others are more public in their discussions of God. But who or what do we mean when we use the word "God"? There probably can never be just one answer to that question. There are many different ideas of God in our world. Different religions see God differently. Even within a religious group, different people may have different ideas of God. People who do not believe in or use the word "God" may also have different ideas of what they don't believe in! Occasionally I have asked such people to tell me more about the God they don't believe in. Often I find that I could not believe in such a negative God either. One tradition says we can never understand fully what God is, only what God is not. A friend of mine says that's because "'God' is not God's name; God is our name for that which is in each, but is greater than all" (Forrest Church). Respect for the Beliefs of Others Respect for other people is tied to respect for different ideas about God. After all, different families, individuals, and religious traditions have ideas of God that surely differ. One Native American idea of God spoke of the Great Spirit as being in all things, asking only respect for all that lives. In Judaism, when a young person asks, "Why do we say 'the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and our god?'" the answer is, "Because every generation must come to God in its own way." For most Christians, God is a Trinityâ€â€Creator, Christ, and the inspiring Holy Spirit guiding faithful believers. For Hindus, there are many, many godsâ€â€but all as aspects to one divine reality, Brahman, to which each individual's soul, or atman, is also related. Buddhists decline to argue about whether there is a soul or no soul, God or no God. Instead they see compassion and respect for the Buddha nature in all beings as leading to Enlightenment. Islam calls all the various tribes and peoples of the earth to abandon their idol-worship and to submit humbly to the one unseen God. Religion can seem to make trouble if all it teaches is that one set of beliefs is the only right way to believe or that one group is better than others. But religion almost universally teaches that we should treat others with respect because we are all sisters and brothers, children of the same Mystery. When You Say "God" Deciding what you mean when you say "God"â€â€or choose not to say that wordâ€â€should probably be a lifelong process of religious learning and thinking. My own ideas about God have changed a number of times. Yours probably will too. "I found God in myself and I loved herâ€â€I loved her fiercely," said Ntozake Shange in For Colored Girls Who Have Considered Suicide/When the Rainbow is Enuf. That's good. But then there's Mother Teresa, who saw God in othersâ€â€especially the poor and the dying. That's even better. A hymn I like is "Bring Many Names" (#23 in Singing the Living Tradition), which celebrates many images of God. One verse has God as a women scientist! "Strong mother God, working night and day, planning all the wonders of creation, setting each equation, genius at play..." Another depicts a warm, forgiving Father. God is seen as both old ("grey with endless care... wiser than despair") and young ("eager still to know, willing to be changed by what you have started"). A great minister, John Haynes Holmes, once said, "When I say 'God' it is more poetry than theology. He meant that he didn't have any very dogmatic ideas, but he did have heartfelt intuitions of God. Best of all, when he said "God," he also felt called to help end prejudice and injustice in whatever way he could. Emerson spoke of "the Soul of the Whole." Like the prophets, he warned that everyone worships somethingâ€â€money, status, their own ego or group. What about you? God-Talk in Public Some God-talk doesn't mean very much. On the dollar bill it says, for example, "In God We Trust." To which cynics often add, "All Others Pay Cash." Other uses can mean more than they usually do. The U.S. pledge of allegiance speaks of "one nation, under God, with liberty and justice for all." Like the Scout Oath ("I will do my duty to God and my country...") such uses depend for their meaning upon personal understandings of God and of duty. These public, symbolic uses of God-talk become problems if they are used to force anyone to say what they don't believe or to believe in particular way. When they are voluntary, however, public pledges or prayers can give people a chance to express human solidarity and humility. When others say "God," you are given a chance to learn more about themâ€â€how they think about God, what they believe about human living and dying, and how their ideas may differ from yours. Just use respect. The same applies when you yourself say the word "God." Try not to use it to make yourself feel superior, either for believing or not believing. Use it with humility. Use it only when it expresses your solidarity with others. The Reverend John Buehrens served as President of the Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations from 1993 to 2001 He is the author, with Forrest Church, of A Chosen Faith: An Introduction to Unitarian Universalism. copyright 2010 Unitarian Universalist Association 25 Beacon Street, Boston, MA 02108-2800

Actually, I really like these. They are still rather Christian in mode, but they are still really nice. Thank you for sharing them!

Here is something I wanted to add, a post from the past. It was a discussion about Scout's Own, not simply prayer, but it brings in a bit of perspective on some of the problems that can be encountered. from: http://www.scouter.com/forum/open-discussion-program/6826-generic-nondenominational-worship-services-yea-or-nay

A great question, but one that isn’t easy to answer. Here are some issues to consider. - What is the scout actually doing when he leads an invocation (which by definition is a prayer)? Is he speaking for the group? Is he giving a demonstration of how his faith tradition does it? What are the expectations that are being set? Is “joining him in prayer†presented as optional or expected? - What does it means to “pray†in different faith traditions? In many traditions, prayers are not free form like most Protestant prayers. There are specific prayers, often at specific times. Some faith traditions have restrictions on who can lead or offer a prayer, or under what circumstances. In some faiths what looks like prayer may not technically be prayer. Do Buddhists pray? - In some faiths, participating in an act of worship from another faith is a form of blasphemy (deep water alert), or is otherwise forbidden or discouraged. I believe there are Christian denominations that forbid their members from participating in interfaith activities (am I correct)? - Is what is going on clearly communicated to people? For example, if the invocation is started in a somewhat generic way, and then suddenly ends with “in Jesus’ name†, that can be unexpected and make some people feel ambushed. Especially if they were expecting something generic. - Most people assume that prayer in other faiths is a lot like prayer in their own faith, just with a different “addresseeâ€Â. “If I lead a prayer, all I have to do is leave off any mention of Jesus, then it’s completely generic right?†- Is it possible to do a truly non-sectarian (not simply non-denominational Christian) prayer? I think the answer is no. So what is the alternative? Replace the invocation with a moment of silent contemplation? Perhaps a short poem? I like Dcsimmons idea of taking turns with different faiths and doing them right. It could be a great way to teach the scouts about how prayer fits into other faith traditions. Include a short discussion in addition to offering the prayer. Like anything, there are good and bad ways to do it. I haven’t seen it done in a scouting context, but I think it could be done well.

So you didn't intend or expect your words to be insulting? Well they were, and not just to Merlyn. You are correct that most people (you are probably right about the 90% bit) don't really know what the word "atheist" means. They think it means "anti-religious", which is true for some atheists, but not all (many are deeply spiritual people. Some are even ordained ministers). You then base your arguments on the idea that atheists are all anti-religious without any spiritual beliefs; and appear to ignore Merlyn and others when they try to explain that: an atheist is simply a non-theist. That can result in unintended (and intended) insult. For example, if I point too a Buddhist monk and explain that he is a deeply spiritual man, that also happens to be an atheist (hey, I think I'm pointing to a straw monk ), and you say "he isn't a real atheist because all atheists denigrate religion". One of the things you are doing is insulting many people who self-identify as atheists by implying that they must denigrate religion. Including that Buddhist monk. And when you say things like "the idea of atheist chaplains is silly", you are insulting those of faiths where atheist ministers and the like are found. You are basically calling their faith "silly". Even if that isn't what you intended. See how that can be hurtful and insulting? I'm not an atheist, but I am Unitarian, and there are atheists of various flavors in my faith tradition (along with Christians, Wiccans, agnostics, etc.). A few of them are even UUA ordained ministers. I do not consider them inherently "silly". However, it is completely fine if you read that and think "The Unitarians have atheist ministers? That doesn't make any sense to me. I just don't get it." It isn't your faith tradition, you don't have to get it or agree with it (there are lots of things in this world that I don't get or agree with). But please don't denigrate my faith or call it silly.