resqman

I was sorta wondering what the forum thought. I know it's not Scout-issue - and I know that is a big deal 'cause I feel the same way about sticking to Scout-issue stuff. But I also think it's important that we look professional and that adult attire at formal occasions be appropriate.

 

Wondering what you folks thought.

Just another post in a long line of uniform posts. "I don't like some aspect of the uniform for some particular reason and I want to wear something similar but not the uniform and want the forum to tell me it is OK."

The boys will know you are not wearing uniform pants. Introducing the double standard of adults do what they want but the scouts have to follow the rules. Parents? They should expect you to follow the program as closely as possible and set the example of perfect uniforming so they can point to the adults to show their sons they should be uniformed properly. The Uniform is the most Appropriate apparel for all scouting events and activities. Wearing something other than the uniform is not appropriate.

If you want to look more formal in the official uniform, send it to the laundry and have it professionaly cleaned and pressed. Leave the bellows pockets empty and neatly pressed flat during more formal activites. Have the pants hemmed to the proper length. Have all the patches sewn on in the correct location. The public, parents and scouts will appreciate that you made the effort to wear the uniform correctly. Then you dont have to be a hypocrite when you are reminding scouts to wear their uniform correctly.

Don't know if this happened nationally, but 11 years ago, our council received an endowment from someone who asked "why aren't more boys making Eagle?" And, the donor(s) wanted their gifts to go to programs that addressed that question. As a result, our council camp had a "trail to Eagle area" that star and life scouts could hang out and discuss what they needed to complete advancement. Let's face it, in some troops kids don't see anyone making rank, but if they see boys from other troops year after year, they might conclude like Pack, "Oh, I *can* do this."

Look at the current requirements for Eagle Scout. 13 requried badges. 3 citizenship badges, Personal Mgt, Family Life, Communication. 6 badges that are all indoor, write an essay, do boring paperwork for months and months badges. No matter how active a program a troop has, nothing will be accomplished for these badges.

As a boy I hated these badges. Almost every boy I have ever met hates these badges. Where is the fun? Silly requirements made up by cubicle farm adults. But... there are important life skills that children don't understand will make their adult lifes easier. That is not why boys joined scouting. They joined to go camping.

So having the SM say everyones goal should be to earn the rank of Eagle is usually not enough to encourage a boy to visit a city council meeting, take notes, and write a paper. It usually will take some additional coaxing to make that happen.

Dcsimmons, I guess I actually DO remember that stuff and more. I was the first ever for my troop to achieve Eagle. Most of the other guys kind of put it down as something that scouts in our troop weren't supposed to want to do but I was intrigued and when I read the requirements I realized that not only could I do this, the process was probably going to be fun. So I set it as a goal and worked toward it. Keep in mind that back then I could drive on a learner's permit at age 15 (I was driving a school bus at 16). So things back then were much different, not to mention the absence of an Eagle project as part of the requirements. I have always thought far more of my Eagle than my HS diploma. Actually, I have very positive memories about scouting and the work I did for Eagle and fairly negative memories about high school (it's complicated). For that matter, the only diploma I really think is of any significance is the terminal degree but mostly because that's finally the end of it.

 

That said, I don't list Eagle on my resume. Never have. It isn't a professional qualification. It means different things to different people and really the only person it has real meaning for is me, so I don't advertise it. I do know that my mother was very proud of the collection of mother's pins that she accumulated from my scouting days (I made sure they were with her when we laid her to rest).

 

I personally couldn't care less about the awards we hand adult scouters. If you didn't achieve what you could have as a boy, it's over. Don't try to compensate for those omissions as an adult leader because it's not about adults. It's about giving boys the opportunities to experience some of the things we experienced and to earn whatever ranks they choose to pursue. The program has changed. Society has changed. But spirit has not. I guess I'm just a curmudgeon.

It is often discussed and lamented the lack of outdoor skills volunteer adults bring to the program. But at the same time we expect them to guide and lead a program that generates exceptional young men. Adults who did not participate in the program as youth don't dont know how to deliver the program. They need to be trained and tutored so they have the skills to shape young men. While you may be the kind that looks for challenges and sets your own goals, not every person is that kind of person. Parents new to scouting have bought into the marketing the scouting is good. They want their sons to succed in life. They enroll them in little league, band, and scouts. The Scout Master says we need volunteers to drive or the campout will be canceled. So unknowing parents load the minivan and drive. Next month the same request.

These parents have to choose to become better at Scouting. But that means they have less time to drive the sibliings to little league, band, and themselves to fantasy baseball meetings or ladies night out. They need some incentive to choose to become better scouters. If a small bit of cloth to sew on to their sleeve is what it takes to mold this cubicle farm worker into a useful scouter, then I say lets provide some carrots. These adults can't provide a program that encourages boys to become men if they dont have some training. The next step is to become a trainer. But guess what, just like getting any job, you have to convince someone else you can do that job. You have to either demonstrate skills or have a resume that implies you have those skills. Without the piece of cloth on your sleeve, many scouters won't listen.

I never attended woodbadge. Don't attend Roundtables. Don't have a wide circle of scouter friends outside of my troop. But I have better scout skills than most. I have been an EMT, Wilderness Search Team member & instructor, Eagle Scout, OA, BSA summer camp counselor, participant of all three national high adventure bases, and corporate technical trainer. Been there, done that, got the patch and t-shirt. District trainer wasn't willing to take a chance on me since I did not hang out at Roundtables or know the critter handshake. Finally did one time. Now I get a call or email months in advance to ensure I clear my calendar for the next training. If I can make one adult better prepared, I have made dozens of boys better prepared.

It is about the boys. We have to provide a program for the adults so they can provide a program for the boys. Just because you have decades of experience does not mean the rest of society has the same experience.

It does not matter if the highest rank is 1st class or Eagle. Whatever the program declares is the highest rank, will be the one with recognition. Some will strive to the hightest rank just because it is the highest. Others will "fall into" the rank through years of being active. Others will finally wrap up the last few requirements because an adult coaxes, the lad wakes up and realizes he will turn 18 in a short while, or some other reason.

Earning a college degree is just a list of requirements. It takes years of sitting in hard chairs listening to boring professors, long nights studying, but most of all it takes persistance. Earning the rank of Eagle or whatever rank you see as the most important, it just completeing a list of requirements. But it takes persistance. It takes effort on the part of the lad to keep whittleing away at all the many small tasks. As an adult, some of the requirements seem so easy. It is really easy to say to your son, just write the 100 word essay, call the designated person, do the one task that seems so trival as an adult to do but is scary, challenging, overwhelming to a a teeenager. Deciding which teacher you are going to ask to write an letter of recommendation. Teachers are a symbol of authority. They seem to give out grades arbitrarily at times. A medicore student who finds his passion in scouting may really struggle to ask for a teacher to not just say, but write down and sign to the fact that you are good and decent person. Like asking the prettiest girl for a date.

Lots of chatter on this forum about character building vs. check list scouting. Last time I looked over the checklist, the scout has to participate in a number of activies that force him into siutations where he is exposed to character building. Service projects, Positions of Responsibility, Boards of Review, Scoutmaster conferences. He interacts with adult troop leadership, MB couselors and interested adults who encourage him to work the program. He gets to hangout with older scouts who model scout behavior. He is exposed but has to choose to accept the scouting values.

My oldest son came to scouting just prior to his 15th birthday. His brother and I had been very active scouters all our lifes. Family friends we shared vacations with consisted of a SM from a different troop and his sons involved in the program. Even though we were a scouting family and lived the scout ideals, he did not really understand until he went through the program. In 3 short years he was able to "check off" all the requirements for Eagle. It was not simple or easy for him. His mockery of the program from outside changed to an appreciation of the diversity of tasks and challenges for young men. Choosing to attend a social event, participate in the high school team game, or attend a campout became a regular challenge. Choosing to have fun with your friends or work a service project. Making the hard choice to forego something fun now for the possibility of a potential reward in the future. Hard lessons. Life lessons.

Those of us inside the program usually would like Eagle Scouts to be the perfect shining example of All Things Scouting. We sometimes forget it is really a journey from ackward middle schooler to mature young man. It is a training program which is supposed to allow and encourage trial and error along the way. Often when I look at the current group of Life scouts, I remember the times they tried my patience, went off the resevation, or did just plain stupid stuff. When I look closer at how they have acted in the last six months, I see young men trying to do the best they can. They are still making mistakes, but new mistakes. They have learned, have grown, are leading the way by example for the younger scouts.

What do you call the medical student who graduated with the absolute lowest GPA? Doctor. The diploma doesnt say, this one just squeaked by. It says Graduate. It says he stuck it out through all the hardships. Same diploma as the valedictorian. I am not suggesting we give up and let any half effort count towards earning the rank. I am suggesting we congratulate those who did not give up.

Ask the general public what Boy Scouts do or excell at. First Aid, Knots, Camping, helping old ladies across the street. Tying knots is a requirement of the first four ranks, not an elective merit badge. The square knot is the second most used symbol of scouting. It is an easily demonstrable skill in a interior setting unlike say following a compass heading.

 

To me knot tying is a fundamental skill that transcends camping and outdoors. It is a skill that is used throughout your lifetime. Please offer a single demonstrable skill that more better examplifies something Boy Scouts know and use that non-Boy Scouts probably don't know.

Granted there is no requirement specifically stating you must be able to tie the Square Knot, only be able to teach it to someone else. Presumably in order to teach someone how to tie the knot, you would have to be able to tie the knot yourself.

Sorry Skeptic, I forgot the forum is about whinning how national is killing everything. The lads in the troop I serve don't receive the releases from national and only know that there is a campout this month that is going to be fun. They get to hang out with their friends and play in the woods, paddle the waters, climb the rocks or other challenging stuff. The SPL and PLC plan a cooking contest every campout. Yes, every campout not just a once a year thing. Past menu items have included salmon cooked on cedar planks, Chinese from scratch, using box and dutch ovens, and other similar skill level items. Not because it was a MB requirement, but because they earned bragging rights that their Sat evening meal was better than all the other patrols.

How often do nine boys stay together in scouts for 11 years and all earn Eagle? Most attend all three high adventure bases? Half are BSA Lifeguards? Parents and adults can berate, whin, and nag but the boys still have to do some of the work themselves. They don't stay in until they age out because Mom said so, they stay in because they are having fun.

Boys drop out of scouts all the time for all sorts of reasons. This is just the most recent outcry over the current politcial hot button.

Again, I apologize. Now returning you to the regularly scheduled teeth nashing and second guessing about the demise of civilization...

My son and his patrol will probably skew the statistics. Son turns 18 in April. High school senior sending out college applications this month. Finished project and all other requirements about 6 months ago. Turns out one teacher never sent in their letter. Tracked down the missing letter and had SM conference this week. Gay issue and cooking MB have no play in the matter. Been in scouting since Wolf. 11 years of scouting. He is last guy in his patrol to finish up his Eagle. In the last 4 months, three patrol mates also wrapped up their final requirements. All turn 18 within 6 months. All have been in scouting since cubs. Patrol of 9, all earned Eagle with about half within the last year. One member of the patrol has a brother who also earned his Eagle in the same troop couple years ago. Aged out and is now openly Gay.

Yeah all will leave scouting in the next several months due to age and in the fall all will head off to college. Amazing and diverse group of young men.

Regardless of the reason behind the immediate need to finish up for those lads the original poster is worrying about, the lads will have completed all the requirements just like all other Eagle Scouts. They had to progress through the program and be exposed to the morals, ethics, and adults who live the the life. When they mature and move out into the "real" world they will look back and remember the great times they had as a Scout. Those lads were molded, shaped and matured under a good system. Parents may be pushing them to finish due to the parents reasons but the lads have benefited regardless of the reason driving them to finish now.

Not many 15-17 yr olds are willing to tell their parents to stuff it and refuse to finish something the boy probably wants to finish anyway. Looming changes in policy just provide an excuse to finish. I say hold judgement until after the first of the year. Ask the boys who don't return if they miss scouting. If they stayed in long enough and were active enought to earn their Eagle, I bet you all will say they miss scouting.

Write something...There were two dens of the same age boys in the Pack when my son was in Cub Scouts. Son joined as a Wolf while some had joined as Tigers. 12 of the 16 joined the same troop as my son. They attended five different summer camps, three high adventure bases and 7 years later, six lads are still in the program having earned the rank of Eagle. They all will turn 18 shortly head off to university in the fall. From age 7 to age 17, they have all matured and grown into fine young men. The last decade has flown by. I sure am glad I was there to watch.

It is often said the scout uniform is too fragile for outdoor activies. I have worn my uniform to every scout event I attended for the last 9 years. Yes, every den meeting, Pack meeting, patrol meeting, troop meeting, COH, BOR, campout, service project, summer camp and even High Adventure. Yes, I wore my scout pants all day, every day for the 7 days I paddled the back waters during my Northern tier trek. During campouts, the adults in our troop can be seen wearing their full uniform from when we leave the parking lot Friday afternoon until Sunday afternoon when we return. Cooking, hiking, camping, Scouting. The only damage to my uniform is a small tear to the shirt when I reached around the trunk of the car getting some gear and it caught on the hinge. No damage from field use. My goal is for the scouts to never see me wear anything but a scout uniform.

As a troop, we encourage the scouts to remove the class A shirt when we arrive at the campsite to limit dirt and wear on the uniform shirts. Some heed the request while others wear the shirt throughout the weekend. We are a "fully unifomed" troop. Meaning troop members where a uniform shirt, pants, socks and neckerchief at all events. We are willing to "forget to check" for scout socks if they are wearing long pants and the socks are not readily visible. The troop meeting followig a campout, the scouts are permitted to wear scout T-shirts under the presumtion laundry may not have been completed from the weekend.

When people whin about the $100 price tag, I scoff. 52 troop meetings, 12 campouts, and a week of summer camp in a single year. 75+ wearings a year. In two years, the scout will have worn the uniform 150 times. Less than a $1 per wearing. What other clothing does someone wear that frequently? In 3 years the scout typically has outgrown it and donates to the uniform exchange. New scouts can get parts or all of a uniform for free from the exchange.

Coaches don't let players on the field without a uniform. Why should scouting be any different!?!

"...Someone mentioned the merit badges don't prove a thing that they're just checkmarks on a list... they do actually... commitment, and mommy and daddy cannot buy them a badge, they have to be earned... I'm thinking that perhaps just Orienteering and First Aid though.... This is not too much to ask of my current scouts to complete in 1.5 years... I dont' care if it's at camp this year or merit badge colleges, or on their own that they earn the badges... I want them to be committed to the trek with something other than having the money to attend... that's also why I want to make the training treks mandatory for both scouts and adults attending... can't make the training treks because you don't feel like it? can't go to yellowstone, sorry :-("

If you plan on requiring specific merit badges, then incorporate requirements during your training treks. Obviously Backpacking merit badge would be a goal to accomplish during the entire process of training and final trek. Orienteering requires running laid out courses. Split the group into sub-groups. Each sub group sets up a course for the other groups to run. Arrange a First Aid mb class. 2hr sessions once a week on a different night from Troop meeting vs. couple of Saturdays. You are planning 1.5 years out. Recommend reminding the scouts that if they miss troop planned opportunites, they can still earn the MBs at summer camp, MB clinics, or earn on their own. Both of these opportunities could/should be open to the entire troop. Start building the skills of the entire troop so next time will be easier.

You probably should consider requiring at least two or more participants complete Wilderness First Aid. National BSA High Adventure Bases require minimum 2 current certifications for crews participating. Typical class costs $175-$250 per person. Cost of class for 2 participants is folded into total cost of trip. WFA helps you understand that no help is coming and you gotta do things you are told not to do in urban/surburban settings. Standard first aid assumes professional help, transportation, and advanced care will be available in 1 hr or less. Backwoods first aid situations presume a minimun of a day before help arrives and multiple days to advanced care facility. Fall off your bike in town, call 911, ride ambulance to hospital, get bones set and cast applied. Break a bone in the outback, you will have to stablize and potentially carry the victim for days. What would be a normal 2 hour hike can turn into a 8+ hour carry out. Now you need have extra food and water for the trip extension. You potentially have to sacrafice gear to lighten load or build stretchers. Party may have to split up to send runners ahead to request assistance while others stay behind to treat and transport. How do you best divide the group based on experience, training, leadership, maturity, etc. "Planetary Stablization" instead of a backboard. The typical BSA first aid kit that fits in your back pocket does not have the necessary equipment to treat backwoods injuries. The crew will need supplemental first aid supplies. One giant kit or mulitple sub-kits to distribute weight across all crew members?

How about PLB? Personal Locator Beacon. They can be rented. Might be a useful safety feature to have one for the crew to signal if the poop hits the fan. Satelitte Phone? Again rent for the trip? Depends on the experience level of the crew. Some parents might feel it is worth an extra $10-$50? per scout knowing the crew can call for help. Just be sure not to give out the phone number to parents. Crew calls once a day to designated person and gives thumbs up, nothing more. GPS? That way when you call on the Satelitte phone, you can give specific coordinates to the SAR team. Maybe earning the SAR MB would be useful. Knowing how SAR teams search and what clues they look for helps one to get found quicker. Hint: Lost people always got to water. Even it is just a mud puddle. There is only one lost person but they leave lots of clues. SAR looks for clues, not people. If you wanna get found, leave lots of easy to find clues. Visit Equipped to Survive website. http://www.equipped.org Great resource for SAR and wilderness survival.

Backpacking stoves. Do you want all to use the same fuel so it is interchangable or would it be better to have at least one different kind of stove/fuel. Propane does not work well when cold but butane does better. Liquid fuels can spill. Cannisters can loose pressure or explode. One pot meals that are basically boiling water or more elaborate cooking? Most stoves flaunt their speed at boiling water. Most are poor at cooking in a skillet due to concentrated hot spot in center of pan. Will you have food drops or will you carry all food the entire way?

How about water? What kind of purification process are you going to use? Tablets, filters, straws, etc. How far apart are your water sources? Will you need to adjust your route to go to a water source? Will you have dry camps and have to carry extra water? If so, then you will need collapsable water containers or additional water containers. Will you cook your main meal requireing water at noon because that is where the water is and have a dry evening meal due to dry camp? Is water seasonal so eliminating certain routes? Planning your route will force you to change gear and food decisions.

There are plenty of decisions for the scouts to be invovled in. Get a crew leader ASAP. Start getting scout volunteers to research and present information to rest of the crew so decisions can be made, gear tested and final decisions made before leaving for the big trek. Many outdoor stores will rent gear for the weekend. Field testing often shows flaws not so obvious in the store.

Go to Roundtable and ask if any past Philmonters are willing to hold a Q&A for your scouts about backpacking for extended days. Philmont solves a lot of problems that you have to solve yourself when planning your own trip. Philmont has a food drop every 3 days. Crews check in with a staff member in the field every evening. Trails are very worn so difficult to get lost. Trained medical personnel oncall with knowledge of specific area, etc. Philmont is realtively tame. There is a lot going on behind the scenes that participants dont't see. You probably don't know what you don't know. Asking questions will force you to ask more questions.

Son went 2 years ago first week of July. He took a fleece blanket/bag. I believe he said he slept on top of it most nights. I think he said one night he was chilly. I took a 3lb poly fill bag back in '76. Sweated most nights. Depends on the weather. 20 degree bag seems like overkill to me.

My sons troop attends Northern Tier, Philmont and Florida Sea Base on a rotating basis. Troop of about 40 boys. They are able to send a crew of 10 boys and 2 adults to one of the bases each summer. The trip of the year is announced. Those interested attend an informational meeting where the approximate costs are outlined, list of gear provided, and a list of tasks that need to be accomplished reviewed. Two attendees must take and past Wilderness First Aid, first aid kit needs to be developed, someone has to make travel plans, someone has to be crew leader/asst crew leader, crew chaplin, payment schedule adopted, physicals due by date, etc. Parents attend because the costs usually run $2000-$3000 per scout. Fund raising opportunites are discussed. Attending and participating in all the fund raisers MAY get the scout close but only through lots of hard work. Parents need to know there will likely be out of pocket costs.

Troop calender may include some troop outings that tend to favor the trip of the year. Maybe a canoe trip, or a backpacking trip will be included in the calendar. The troop does what it can to help but does not completely change its focus because a few scouts are high adventuring. Son went to Philmont 2 yrs ago. All the scouts were at least 15 yr old, Life or Eagle, and the adults had been active ASMs for 4+ years. Only just to explain that they all had experience. The only restrictions were those imposed by Philmont (14, BMI, Valid Physcial, and pay). The philmont crew had maybe 4 backpacking trips the year they went to Philmont. I believe only 1 trip was part of a troop outing. The others were weekend trips the crew took as training trips. They bought and packed food as similar to Philmont as feasible. Most scouts made most outings. Adults did step up their personal exercise regieme to make sure they were not embarassed on the trail. Everyone knew who would be the problems and who would be the solutions after the first trip. No surprises. The boys had been patrol and troop mates for years. A few stepped up who typically would falter. Everyone had a bad day or did at least one stupid thing. Thats life.

The first trip all were tired. A map reading error took them on an extra mile or two. Too much stuff in a few guys packs. Not enough water for others. Typical stuff. By trip three, most of the issuess had been worked out. They took a strenuous trip. Baldy, Tooth of Time and about 65 miles. Everybody made it back alive with no incidents that more training trips would have prevented.

All that to say, 18 backpacking trips in the 9 months leading up to a 1 week trip is significant overkill. 10 miles a day is about 4-5 hours of backpacking. A 14 yr old, 125lb scout should be able to do that with no problems after three training weekends. The training will pare down the weight in the pack and teach them how to pace themselves. Just make sure that after the first training trip, that all other trips include at least one day 15 miles or longer with the other day being at least 8-10 miles. The longer distance stresses emotions and reserves and you see who sucks it up and who folds.

For money, I would recommend you require a non-refundable down payment of $100. This weeds out the half-hearted. They may have the opportunity to "sell" their down payment if they can find another scout to buy their spot. Limit the trip to X number of participants. All money must be paid in full by date Y with minimum monthly payments due until paid in full. Only partial refunds because trip funds will have been spent on first aid kit, WFA training, travel arrangments, group gear, etc. As a troop leader you already know who will likely be slow payers based on past summer camp and other expenses. Offering camperships is a possibility if you have benefactors willing to help.

If you think the troop will continue to particpate in trips like this, then the troop can buy the group gear back at the end of the trip to reduce overall costs to the scouts. For instance, backpacking stoves, group first aid kit, map cases, GPS units, dining flys, backpacking tents, etc. Son's troop goes every year but has no troop gear that goes on the trips. Some how the group gear gets dispersed between the attending boys. My son completed his Triple Crown this year having attended all three bases. Only thing we have is a backpacking stove we bought so there would be enough for the crew.

Recommend you have a specific adult be the contact point and overseer/advisor to the scouts leading/planning the trip. The scoutmaster does not have time to be both an SM and trip planner/leader.

Ask the general public what Boy Scouts do or excell at. First Aid, Knots, Camping, helping old ladies across the street. Tying knots is a requirement of the first four ranks, not an elective merit badge. The square knot is the second most used symbol of scouting. It is an easily demonstrable skill in a interior setting unlike say following a compass heading.

To me knot tying is a fundamental skill that transcends camping and outdoors. It is a skill that is used throughout your lifetime. Please offer a single demonstrable skill that more better examplifies something Boy Scouts know and use that non-Boy Scouts probably don't know.

What I have seen it is one of the few places that is away from all other influences. The scouts are free and unencombered by parents, bullies, and other well meaning but controlling people. The scout must do it or it get doesn't get done. He has the opportunity to make decisions and live by the consequences. If he cannot cook, he will be hungry. If he does not bring his raingear, he still must complete the hike. He learns by doing instead of just reading about, watching a video or being lectured at. He finds out that he must rely on others to help him. He learns how to conjole others to work together to reach a goal. It is one of the few places he must actually contend with weather and not just simply hide indoors. Some of it is that nature is just cool.

Our troop generally does not attend the council camp. Nice enough camp with a lot of new very expensive facilities added. ust happens to be in a very hot dry part of the state. Troop culture is to rotate through about 5-6 camps across the state and neighboring state. Each camp has its pros and cons. One is up in the mountains so a little bit cooler weather. Lots of up and down walking everywhere. Another camp is at the coast so very flat and all the areas are close to one another. One is a little smaller so less crowds. One has a good program but the food is lousy. You get the idea.

The issues we have most often are A) we have little or no history with the camp so staff doesn't do little extra things for us to make things work out. B) we often get a campsite that is far away from everything or has some major flaw. C) We don't know about the events/stuff that regulars do and the camp assumes everyone knows about so we occasionally miss out or are not prepared to take advantage of a useful event. extra merit badge sessions, free swim periods, special foods/treats, access to camp facilities, etc.

The advantages include that the scouts are not bored by the same thing as last summer. Different water front, different nature lodge, different trading post, different troops/boys to meet, different songs/skits, etc. After you have been to 2 or more camps, you learn they are all pretty similar but each have a few quirks that make that camp more enjoyable or challenging. All of them we have adults audit the MB sessions so we know if the troop needs to hold "reveiw" sessions regarding the material. Every camp has a few staffers that are poor instructors.

One camp, the culture was troops trailered in golf carts for the week. The adults were constantly zipping around in golf carts. The scouts had to continually move off the roads while walking to events to allow the lazy adults to zoom by and stir up dust. The camp even had a 6 seater they used as kind of a taxi service to move the pot-bellied adults around the camp. They werent used for camp purposes, just so the adults would not have to walk all the way from their campsite to the chow hall or trading post canteen and back again. Rather annoying. Also set a poor example for the scouts. Walking is only for the lowely scouts.

Went in 2010. 7 day loop trip. 100 miles paddling, 4 miles portage. There were times the first 2 and last day we saw so many people, I felt I was on the local waterski lake at home. Yahoos everywhere. Middle of the trip we finally got away some and only saw 1 or 2 other parties per day. I have heard the Canadian trips are much more remote.

Been to Philmont, NT and Seabase. All offer different amounts of wilderness. It depends on your trek, time of season, distrance traveled during trek, etc. My son went to NT first, Philmont the following year and Seabase this coming summer. His response is "it seems we are choosing easier trips with each HA". It could be he started at age fourteen and is now 17. And it could be after you have been on one HA, the next one seems easy because you have already tested yourself and know you can travel very long distances in remote wilderness with virtually no gear and live very comfortably.

If you are looking for a remote excursion, opt for the Canadian trips of NT. BWCA is virtually remote and mostly unpopulated with other travelers but it seemed like a lot more travelers than I was expecting.

Busy families is a lame excuse. It is about priorities. Either the family wants to particpate and thinks scouting is important or they dont. Sports, Band, Karate, Swimming, etc. are all choices. Scouting is a choice. Coaches dont allow partial participation. Why should Scouts act any differently? If the scouts and their families can not complete all the requirements only meeting once a month, than meet more often like the program is designed. If den meeting night conflicts with sports,band,etc, then the family either has to decide to choose a different den/pack that meets on a night that does conflict with sports or choose a different sports team that practices on a different night and doesnt conflict with scouts. Choices. We all want everything. We cant have everything. Learn that choice at a young age and it solves many problems throughout your life.

My son was an over involved sports player. We was a member of up to 3 teams at the same. 8 practices in 5 days with 3 games the same week. Yeah he attended double practices several days a week. Yeah he was tired. Yes he had to schedule his eating, school, homework, "fun" time, and every bit of his life. It was a choice he made. It was a family choice as well since he had to be driven to and from all these activites. It meant the family schedule had to be adjusted to get all family members to and from all the other obligations.

He did not join Boy Scouts until almost 15. He continued to play sports with the high school team and travel team. He had to often choose to attend a Scout event or a sporting event. He wanted to earn the rank of Eagle. He reviewed every scout event to determine if he could complete enough requirements to make it worth while. He attended a district camporree without his troop because he was able to complete many requirements for a required MB. He also was able to complete a number of additional requirements for rank requirements he needed. That weekend really paid off for him towards completeing Eagle. He made a choice. He was able to earn the rank of Eagle in 3 years and 2 months. Just 2 months before his 18th birthday. As a family we offered him opportunities to be involved in scouts and sports. He had to to the hard work and make both successful.

Families see scouts as a drop in when it is convienent type of activity. They see sports as a must attend activity. Tell the families that you think scouts is equally or more important than sports. As the leader, you will be holding meetings on this day every week for the next 9 months. By the way, that just happens to be the same night as the Pack meeting so it is easy to remember. Attendance is expected. If the scout does not attend, he will not advance. He will also miss out on a lot of fun. You support the scout being involved in other activies including but not limited to sports, theatre, band, dance, martial arts, school plays, etc. We understand that occasionally a scout cannot attend. Just like when you miss practice, the coach will not start you, when you miss scouts, you may not advance. Choice.

If scouts did not complete the requirements for advancement, they dont get the patch. Cub scouting they still advance to the next rank due to age/school. Bring up the ones who completed the requirements first and celebrate their achievements. Bring the remainder and congradulate them for Doing Their Best and wish them well on the next years adventures. No trophies for second place.

Sons pack was about 60 scouts plus registered adults. Camped twice a year, entertaining and engaging Pack meetings. Summer program of at least 6-8 events. We happened to have all male den leaders. We made money selling popcorn and spent it. $35k one year. Bought a new whiz bang pinewood derby track, software, and projector. Hosted the district Pinewood derby. Pack bought and maintained tools and held at least 3 workshops prior to derby. Big B&G banquet. Mostly it was the leaders. Cubmaster moved on after 7 years along with 4 den leaders who had been activitly planning and managing lots of the activites. Membership dropped by half. New adults came along and within in a two years they were back up in numbers. It is all about the adult leaders. Word gets out that a Pack has it going on. People will drive long distances to be in an active pack.

Why do we need girls in BOY scouts? There is no place for a boy just to be a boy without some meddling woman or girl around to tell him he is doing it wrong. There is already Girl Scouts. If girls/women don't like what their organization offers, change Girl Scouts.

Women have a lot to offer. But boys and young men need some time to be boys and young men. Females generally disapprove of boys behaving like boys. Boys and young men need some time to run around, be rough and tumble, and hang out with other guys, and discuss how to get along with females without females interfearing.

We have female ASMs. The scouts act differently when the females ASMs are around. The female ASMs have a subtle but different way of dealing with the scouts. All of the female ASMs have sons in the troop. Generally the female ASMs are good or better than average campers. It is not that women are bad, they are just different. Keep Boy Scouts for Boys. Boy Scouts is not advocating the girls and young women dont particiapate in outdoor adventures, Just that they cannot do it as BOY scouts.

We have a male ASM with extensive outdoor skills. Woodbadge grad. He tried to join his daughters Girl Scout troop. He wanted to share in his daughters scouting like he had with his sons. He actively sought out all the Girl Scout leader training courses so he could assimilate the Girl Scout way of thinking, acting, and doing. He got lots of push back from the organization. Try to become a Girl Scout Troop Leader as a male. Girl Scouts does not allow it. They tolerate males as an assistant only. Compare that to Boy Scouts where the only exclusion is girls under 14 cannot be a registered member.

Pack gave nothing. I collected money from the parents to pay for materials to make AOL plaques and custom arrows. I carved a neckercheif slide for each scout in my den.

During my sons ECOH they asked him what he would change/improve about scouting. His reply was to offer some social classes. He felt that too many of the scouts were too geeky and nerdy and did not fit in socially. He felt if they could be taught some social interaction skills it would help them. Of course is could also help the image of scouting in general. He did not join scouts until age 15. He had been an athlete. He did not advertise his scouting but would not deny it if questioned. He had enough confidence and social clout at that point that it did not matter. Interestingly once he earned Eagle, it can up in EVERY conversation with anyone he met. He met a lot of closet scouts.

There are rules about making your own patrol patches. Wadda suprise! I believe it is limited to 3 colors. You may notice on the Class B website it lists some as officially acceptable and some not. The only difference is the number of colors.

We have had Flaming Burritos, Rabid Chickens, and The Chairs just to name a few. SM is in advertising and gets his art department to design patches and then the troop pays to have the patches made.

The uniform police may cite patrol patches with more than 3 colors but I would guess than most scouts and scouters would never know that the patrol patch is technically not acceptable with lots of colors.

Theres an app for that... BSA-on-the-Go lists all the requirements for all the scout ranks, and badges. You can check off the requirements.

I supply baseball trading card plastic sleeves to my sons. Office Max Depot Staples sells pages of plastic sleeves that hold 12 cards. After each COH, they just slip the blue cards in the page. Each son has a 1 inch ring binder with all their blue cards, rank advancement cards, membership cards, etc. Couple of full sheet page protectors for 1st class certificate, COH programs, page of patrol names, troop numbers, patrol members, scoutmaster name, etc.

It will become a memory book later in life but now it is a way for them to keep track of all the paperwork. Made it real easy when the oldest went to fill out his Eagle application. He had all the documents in one place. He took it to his ECOH to show if needed.

I was a den leader for 4 years and then an ASM for 2 years. My oldest son had no interest in scouting during all that time. Sports was his thing. One day at lunch in High School, his buddies asked him how he was planning on getting into college. He responded sports. They laughed and replied; No really how are planning on getting into college?

He joined scouts the next week 3 months before his 15th birthday. He decided having Eagle on his application would help him get into college. 3 years 1 month later he earned the rank of Eagle. He continued to play sports, have a girlfriend, and have an active social life. He worked scouts like a job. How many requirements can I complete at this event. What extra outings, events, activities are available to get those lingering requirements/badges. When he was at scouts he had fun with his patrol, but he was always looking to get something signed off. What brought him into the program was a desire get into college.

A boy returning to boy scouts while having been a boy scout before knows what he is getting into. A boy returning from cub scouts has no idea or likely a wrong idea about scouts. Boys want adventure and challenge. Most have no interest in leading and managing the troop. Campouts need to have a planned event besides checking off T-FC requirements. Canoeing, hiking, climbing, cycling, kayaking, rappeling, etc. something to physicaly do. Some challenge to test yourself or new skill to learn. My sons troop treats the monthly camping trip not as a camping trip but as a fun challenging event where they happen to camp to save money on food and shelter. Sleeping in a tent and cooking your own food is a given. What else you got? is what the boys are asking.

Son's troop sends a crew to Philmont, Northern Tier, or scuba diving in the Bahamas every year. Those attending the high adventure trip have to prepare. They usually need some new gear, some time training with the new gear, and some time learning skills to be succesful during the high adventure. Gotta be 14 so it is only the older scouts. They often take alternate camping trips from the troop to build crew morale and hone the specific skills.

Boys join the troop with the idea that in a few years they will be attending at least one but hopefully all 3 high adventure trips. So at least canoe trip is planned every year. At least one backpacking trip every year. Scouts are encouraged to earn Scout Lifeguard so the troop can take water based trips.

Troop rule is no Hot Dogs, No Pop-Tarts, and No Ramin Noodles unless as a side dish or component of meal option.

Saturday evening meal always has a theme chosen during PLC. It has taken the form of ethnic: meal must be loosely based on the declared theme of Mexican, Italian, Asian, etc., or food group: ie: Seafood, or cooking style used during the prepration, ie: Box Oven, Open Fire, Dutch Oven, Utensiless, etc.

First couple of campouts the scouts were not completely sold on the idea. SM and ASMs would wander by and taste a spoonful from each patrol. The boys quickly advanced to prepareing a presentation plate and delivering to the adult area for judging. Prizes of Unspeakable Value were awarded to the patrol with the best overall meal. Cooking skills and menus quickly elevated.

I remember during the Asian weekend, one patrol looked as if they had looted an asian grocery store. They had a multidude of bottles which they continously added to their meal. The entire patrol was involved and quite proud of their meal. One patrol cooked salmon on cedar planks. The drawback is all they cooked was salmon on cedar planks. No side dishes but they had a whole lot of great salmon.

The troop runs its own YLT weekends. The scouts are divided into patrols and given groceries and conventional recipies for the ingrediants provided. The scouts have access to spices as well as dutch ovens, box ovens, fryers, open fires, and all the cooking gear they could need. They can follow the recipes or strike out on their own.

One time each patrol was given the same food but had to use differnet cooking options. One patrol was given box ovens, one dutch ovens, and one a fryer. Same food prepared different methods. They all exchanged samples and learned a lot.

One time we placed a variety of groceries on a picnic table. Each patrol was told they would be given hamburger. All scouts were allowed 10 minutes to look over the picnic table of options. Then they were divided into patrols and told to decide what ingrediants they wanted. Then we allowed each patrol to select one and only one item from the bounty on the table. Then the next patrol selected an item, and so on. They was only one box of rice, one set of potatoes, one box of stuffing, etc. If the other patrol choose the rice, your menu might no longer work so would have to modify your choice on the fly. All scouts said that was the best time they had cooking ever. This was after they had been having the Sat evening meal competition for 2 years.

Scoutmaster is often heard telling new parents he has never seen a scout starve to death over a weekend. They may go hungry for a meal or two due to personal choice but never die. Patrols choose their own menus before the campout. Every scout has an opporunity to voice his concerns and opinions about the menu. Many many scouts have starting eating a broader range of foods as a result of cooking and eating what is prepared during campouts.

The adults cook and eat as a patrol. The adults use the same budget requirements the patrols use. The scouts quickly learned that oatmeal and eggs for breakfast leaves money for more extraveagent evening meals.