resqman

We hold our B&G in February. We have our graduation and crossover ceremony the first weekend of April. We just had a successful campout and graduation ceremony this past weekend.

The boys recieved their AOL at the February B&G. They then have the formal graduation to troops the first weekend of April. They are allowed to participate in the March Pack meeting if they choose. I don't believe they hold any den meetings betweent B&G and Graduation.

I would say to stop by www.equipped.org and review some of the ideas for survival kits.

It is an excellent source for ideas about what needs to be in a survival kit as well as superior equipment reviews. He designs kits as small as an Altoids candy tin up to suitcase sizes for lifeboats.

Check out the 7 essentials list. From there add to fill your shoe boxes. I would recommend:

- Poncho, military(Tent, tarp, sleeping bag, rain protection)

- Space blanket

- Duct Tape

- Firestarter (Disposable lighter, BSA Hot Spark, tinder)

- Knife

- LED Headlight or flashlight

- Metal Cup (boil water, cook food, cook pot & plate)

- Spoon

- Rope (1/8"x50' braided nylon or 550 paracord)

- First Aid Kit

- Food

What's the most important?

I think it should be the time the boy and parents spend working on a common project. It is a way to force parents to spend time with their own kid.

Second is to plan and execute a project. Some people just start cutting until it looks like a car. Some build elaborate paper templates. Either way, you shape a car, paint and decorate a car, attach the wheels, adjust the weight and race it. The boy did something instead of watching it on TV.

Third is also about entering your work and comparing it against others on a level playing field. Yes, some parents are more crafty or handy with tools. I held a workshop as a den meeting. I brought my tools. Our Pack holds at least one but often several workshops where tools are provided along with people who know how to use them. Our Pack posts tips and techniques on how to increase speed on the post website. Additionally the Pack posts templates of cars on the website. We try to provide as much information as possible and make it as easy as possible to build a competitive car. We make a dedicated effort to level the field.

Last year we ran on a wooden track with a broken timer. Eyeballs called races and we used double elimination. Lots of unhappy scouts and parents. The Pack made an investment in a new metal track, software, and timer. This year every car ran on every lane. Times were posted on the wall via a projector real time. Everyone was happy. We did not recieve a single complaint.

In the late 70's our troop had a leadership corp. Red patch in a boxy shape. Kind of inverted pyramid with the point cut off.

In my troop, the rule was you had to be an Eagle to be in the Leadership Corps. It operated basically as a Patrol and group of ASPL "on demand". We had a large troop of 5 or 6 patrols along with the Leadership Corp. We also had enough Eagles to form a patrol.

The Corps was looked upon with envy and admiration. Here was a group of Eagle scouts. They knew all the answers and were able to do all the skills.

Eventually we formed an Explorer Post to give the older boys something to do and keep them interested. It also freed up positions so the younger could advance.

I believe I read in the OA forum recently that you are only OA if you have paid your current membership. If you don't pay, in theory you are no longer a member and are supposed to remove the patch from your uniform.

I am in another state, in a different council, 25 years later and do not pay my dues to the local chapter or any chapter. I don't wear my OA flap on my uniform. I figure when my boy moves on to Boy Scouts, I will renew my membership when he is elected and goes through the ordeal.

Now we return you to your primary topic, adult training and why they don't attend.

Uncleguinea said...

Resq -- I understand what you're saying. I happen to be of the opinion that going to training will help you discover the resources to take your ratio of 2-3 hours of planning for 1 hour meeting time down to a ratio of 45 minutes planning (max) to 1 hour of meeting time.

I say this to be helpful -- from what I've seen, untrained leaders work very hard to have a good program for the kids they serve. However, much of their hard work has already been done and they just don't know it.

*****

I spend most of my time making sure I have the materials to do projects. For instance last week I ran to the craft store to get plaster of paris. Then I walked the creek bed to find spore and animals tracks. I poured casts of tracks and then returned later in the day with my son to collect the casts. I stopped by the scout store to buy the neckerchief with tracks printed on it to help the boys identify the casts. I printed out several sources of track identifications from the web for the boys to use. The same day I cut and drilled lumber to make weathervanes as part of the World Conservation requirements. To shorten my prep time, I purchased a rain guage instead of making rain guages. All fun stuff and the boys really enjoyed themselves. I am not sure how training would shorten this kind of prep time.

Well, I finally got around to taking New Leader Orientation training last week. I have been a Den Leader for 2 years. I have already signed up for Webelos Leader training in two weeks.

My primary excuse for not taking BSA training was because I was already training 2 evenings and 1 weekend day a week for job. It seems BSA training always bumped against work.

New Leader Orientation did not teach ME anything. I can see where if you were new to the program, it would be reassuring to know others also feel overwhelmed. I am taking the Webelo Leader training with the hope it will prepare me for next year. I also would like to earn a Knot and that is a requirement.

The Asst Cub Master took IOLS training this month and was thrilled with it. I asked some of the other leaders who had taken BALOO and IOLS and their response was that I would not get anything out it...because they felt I already knew everything in those classes. I do plan on taking BALOO next time it is offered so that the Pack has enough trained leaders so we can continue to go Pack Camping.

I had a very active BSA career as a boy. I went to Philmont and Sea Base. I was a BSA camp counslor for 2 summers. I am an Eagle, ex-OA, and have been studying wilderness survival as a hobby for the last 5-8 years.

In my case, I think I could use training about ways to make the meetings easier, management simpler, and learn the current rules of BSA.

I found it interesting as I was looking around NLO last week that none of the presenters had either Eagle or Arrow of Light knots. Most had between 5 and 9 knots of leader training. I would say that half the students had their Eagle knots.

In 1986 I drove to close to a guardrail and caused a flat tire on my car. A fella stopped and offered to change the tire for me. I explained I was capable but he insisted. I offered him a cold drink or some cash but he refused. He did ask that I return the favor some day. I though that would be easy.

For the next 20 years I looked at cars on the side of the road for an opportunity to return the favor. Occasionally I saw an opportunity here or there but felt I could not afford the time.

Last year, I happened upon a driver on the side of the road with a flat. I could make the time. I pulled over and offered my help. The driver did not even know if she had a spare or where her jack and tools would be. I was able to locate both and change her tire.

I took my promise to that helpful fella seriously. A scout (maybe slow) but is trustworthy and helpful.

I joined the local volunteer fire department and was active for a year and half until I moved out of the area. At the new location, I earned my EMT and volunteered. On average I ran at least one call a day for a year. Some of the calls were less than true emegencies but there were a few special calls where I was able to make difference for my patient. I moved again and joined an all volunteer rescue squad and SAR team. For the last 10 years I have the opportunity to help a few people who really needed it.

I sent some email to the fella in our Pack that arranged the purchase of the new track etc. This is the information he returned.

Here are three links to what we bought:

http://www.pinewoodderbytrack.com/ (Piantedosi 4-lane, 40 foot aluminum track, $750 + shipping)

http://www.etekgadget.com/ (SmartLine 4-lane timer, $289 + shipping)

http://grandprix-software-central.com/ (GrandPrix race management software, $60 + shipping)

Total cost: $1240 (this includes some incidental costs and a separate computer extension cable I bought for $20 which some people might not want/need).

Our Pack requires our boys to use the BSA kit and the Pack issues one to every registered boy. The pre-cut kits from hobby and craft stores are basically doing the work of the Dad. Instead of Dad cutting the wood, the supplier cuts the wood. Instead of the boy designing the car, the supplier designs the basic shape of the car. The boy/Dad still should sand, finish shape, paint, decorate and apply the axles and wheels.

I see the cheating occuring on two levels. The boy is cheated of time working on a common project with a parent. Secondly I see a scout who is cheating against the other scouts in the PWD. The parents are supporting this cheating and not teaching good values.

I personally don't worry about the shape of the body from a speed viewpoint. There is much discussion on the web that the due to the length of the track and the size of the cars, that aerodynamics plays very little if any in the speed of a car. There is plenty of andedotal stories of large,ungainly, and un-car shaped cars beating low, aeordynamically correct vehicles.

The PWD is just one more tool to help the parent and child have a common activity. My son and I enjoy the entire process of design, execution, and racing. It is always fun to win but it is also a life experience that not everyone can win.

Maybe its that "1hr a week" slogan.

Just like in college you are supposed to study for 2-3 hours for every classroom hr, it seems I have to spend 2-3 hrs a week for every 1hr of face-to-face time with the boys.

I understand that the training may help me. I understand that the pack/troop needs to have a min number of trained leaders to earn various unit awards.

Scouts is a volunteer organization but quickly becomes a part time job that takes over your life. More training fills my bag of tricks but it also requires more of my time that I would also like to spend with my family.

My reason tends to be not enough hours in a day to accomplish all the things I would like to.

I guess my question is, Why would you want one?

I had one as a boy in the 70's. I sewed patches all over the back. It was too warm to wear indoors to show off my patches. It had no ability to stop wind so was useless outdoors. The patches did provide a very minumial wind break but I was always cold wearing it outdoors.

I would recommend a flannel lined windbreaker instead. It packs smaller, stops the wind, is warmer outside and cooler indoors, and costs 1/3 the price. If it gets grimey, just throw it in the washing machine and dryer. The wool jack will have to be dry cleaned.

The only advantage I see to the wool jac is sparks from the fire will only burn small holes in it instead of potenially blazing up.

While it may look spiffy, I found it to be the most useless piece of uniform I ever had.

Last year we ran on a home made wooden track. It had 3 lanes. We only ran the two outside lanes because of some mystical but unknown reason handed down from previous derbys. One lane ran ran faster than the other. We used a poster board and marker to build brackets and record wins and loses. We had a laser gate at the end of the track that worked ~most~ races but kept an adult at the end just in case. We had parents complain about not getting to race enough cars, not enough runs, and all the other gripes they could think of.

This year we bought a brand new 4 lane metal track, computer controlled timer and display with matching software. We hooked up the computer to a LCD display that showed the results on the wall of the building 15' sq. The software immediately displayed the results of each lane to the 1000th of a second along with max speed. The gate at the end of the track showed the place correctly in every race every time. Each car ran once on each of the four lanes. Each car raced a different set of 3 cars each time it ran so each car raced 12 different cars. The computer generated the heats, brackets, tracked the times, and allowed us to choose either compiled times or average times for overall winner.

Each and every heat was a success. Every boy and parent really enjoyed the event. I did not hear a single complaint about fairness. Every part of every race was displayed on the wall after every race. The track record time was constantly displayed and automatically updated if a new speed was set.

At check in the night before, the officials checked to ensure that all 4 wheels rolled, that they were BSA wheels, weight was 5 or less, and the overall length and width of the car did not exceed the max by fitting into a box.

After the races, we checked the car that set the track record. The wheels had been shaved. As a group we decided not to say anything about illegal entries since everyone had such a positive memory of the derby. Each year we take notes and try to make the inspection more detailed.

Some cars were obviously made by the boys. A few showed that Dad had been a big contributor. We had one entry that they boy started the day after last years derby. It was a beauty to behold.

Last year my son's car was not very fast. This year we spent about 1 hr using the BSA performance kit on the axles and wheels. The wheels were on crooked, wobbly, and out of alignment. Our weight was only 4.83. But we set the track record for Tigers, Wolfs, and Bears. Only one other car was faster in the entire pack by .002 seconds.

I believe that the investment the Pack made in the new track and associated equipment was worth it. While I understand that not every Pack can afford $1500 worth of new track, it seemed to solve all the complaints by showing all the results in a fair and impartial way immediately. All the cars got to race 4 times.

Next month we are hosting the District derby with our new equipment at the local mall. Nine Packs have signed up for the races. I look forward to seeing if positive experience holds up when we expose it to other Packs and the public eye.

As a Den leader, I held one meeting where all the boys in my Den chose a body shape and we cut it out. The boys had a chance to work on their wheels. For those families who do not have tools or were not particularly crafty, it gave them a good headstart. All the boys in my den submitted a car in the derby. Even had one boy join the Pack and our Den one week before the derby and enter a car. The boys in my den know that our Den members made their own cars. They watched each other make them. Interestingly there was one heat that our Den was in all 4 lanes.

A couple of weeks before the Pack derby, we held a parent and sibling derby. This was to give us a chance to pull it out of the box and make sure it all worked. This was also a way to let any parents who needed to over contribute a chance to build their own car to satisfy that urge. While no parents other than PWD officals did offer a car, it was an opporutity to allow parents to showoff.

While making a good showing this year certainly makes me an impartial judge, all the boys I and the other leaders talked with enjoyed themselves. Even more so that there were no complaints made it an enjoyable experience.

I vote both dorky and uncomfortable.

The military addressed this issue after WWI. They determined that military uniforms were designed primarily as dress uniforms perfect for parades and meetings but did not fair well in battle conditions.

Currently the US has two uniforms for each service. A field uniform (Battle Dress Uniform, BDU) and a dress uniform. They each serve very different functions. The Dress uniform has shinny brass buttons, bright colors, and are very form fitting. The BDU's are earth tones, subdued dark buttons, and are loose cut to allow easy movement. The uniforms are made of different materials, each to fit the role of the uniform.

The BSA uniform tries to perform both roles. A dress uniform for BORs and parades in front of the public. A field uniform to squat over open fires, hike peaks, and protect from weather.

In my opinion it does the dress part in a decent manner. It provides a way for the scout to display his achievements, show leadership responsibilities, and provides a tailored uniform for formal events.

As a field uniform, I believe it fails. The pockets are too small, placed in poor locations, and do not have secure closures. The legs and seat are cut too tight to allow for ease of movement.

If BSA went to 2 uniforms, a field uniform and a dress uniform, then people would complain about the double cost. Some families could only afford or would only purchase one uniform. Then we get into the debate of which uniform should you purchase if you can only purchase one?

I would like the uniform pants to be modified. I would like the pants to be cut fuller to allow ease of movement. I would like to see the pockets to be made more useful. The rear patch pockets need to be larger so I could actually put a wallet back there. I would like to see the front pockets made longer to allow them to be large enough to carry a knife, cell phone, compass, lighter, or other essential supplies I need while around town or in the back country.

Fashion is constantly changing. BSA uniforms pants are stuck with a poor design from the past. Remove the patch pockets and make them interior pockets like most pants. Make the pants a fuller cut to allow for the activities Boys Scouts do participate in. Offer a long pant, a short, and a zip off style.

Racist? Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

I am not sure how Git R Dunn discriminates. Is it slang made popular by white southeners? Yes. Being a white southener, I don't find it offensive. That's just the way we talk.

Is using Ebonoics racist?

I called my father Mr. "X" because he tended to serve the other boys requests before mine when I called him Dad. He tuned out my voice when I said Dad but when I call him by his name, I was just another boy in the troop.

In our Pack, the boys call the leaders Mr. Lastname. My son calls me Dad. Things might change when we get to Boy Scouts.(This message has been edited by resqman)

My sister is a Girl Scout Leader. She explained the only official uniform anymore is basically a merit badge sash.

She felt that her girls needed a uniform to make them feel special about being Girl Scouts. She wanted a way for others to recognize that it was a Girl Scout troop visiting the museum or whatever event they were participating in.

She had a logo embroaderied on polo shirts. Now the girls have a shirt that matches. They can be recogonized as an organized group, not just a few friends.

The uniform is a symbol. It is so those who are in your organization can recognize you and your accomplishments by the various badges. It is also so that others can recognize you as belonging to a organization with a very positive public image.

You get treated differently by the way you appear. Dress in a business suit, and people will treat you with more respect than if you are wearing torn, dirty, smelly clothes that you slept in for the last 2 weeks.

I am a member of a rescue squad and we wear uniforms. People recognize our uniform and will allow us to pass through crowds or stand in the middle of the road simply because we are wearing uniforms. We often go to restaurants as a group. We always get nods of greeting and smiles. Occasionally we get a Thank you. If the same group of people were wearing jeans and mismatched shirts, we would be just another roudy group. We would have difficulty getting bystanders to allow us to help the injured. The uniform is a tool to allow us to perform our job.

While I was a boy I would not wear my uniform to a school function for fear of the ribbing I would get. But I did proudly wear my uniform during scout functions in public. The uniform is an important part of scouting and should be encouraged by adults wearing the uniform and requirements of wearing the uniform at scout functions. Our pack allows the boys to wear what they choose during campouts. But during flag ceremonies and Sunday religous ceremonies we require the uniform.

My scoutmaster was married but had no kids. When asked we were told his wife was unable to bear children. It was his way to have the experience of fatherhood. He ran a very active troop with high enrollment and generated his share of Eagles.

We had several committee members who sons had been through the program and earned their Eagles. The adults stayed with the program. Mr. Stump was known for his Stump Stew which he made each year for the troops annual weekend hike on the Appalachian Trail. They attended troop meetings and some of the campouts. They continued to be MB counslers.

My dad was a committee member and later an asst Explorer Post leader. I aged out and went to college. My dad became the Post leader and ran the Post for 8-10 years after I was out of scouts.

I would be happy to have an Eagle volunteer for any level of BSA. While they may be out of date on the current legal and program methods of today, they have the values, morals, and experience of "having been there". Heck, they even got a patch for having been there!

I missed scouting and thought of becoming a leader several times while my kids were babies and toddlers. I waited and my youngest has been in Cub Scouts for 2 years. I volunteered and have been his Den Leader.

Many of the leaders in my son's pack are fine people who attend training and do the best they can for the boys. Many have no previous experience with scouting. There are times I see areas that had they been through the program themselves, they would have struggled less with tasks. I would embrace his offer to volunteer even if you have "too many" volunteers now.

I personally use this

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=77355

(If the page is out of date, go to sportsmansguide.com and use CAMPMATE ORGANIZER in the search field)

It is basically a plastic patrol box. It has divided compartments, shelves for spices, drawers for utensils, a tub for washing, and a place to store the stove. One adult can carry it loaded with supplies.

The drawbacks include it requires a table or stand. The handles are on the sides as recesses and only one hand will fit in the recess. Two adults can carry the box if necessary. It might be too heavy for first year scouts.

I stocked ours and then went on a week camping trip with the family. My wife had no input into the contents but was able to cook all the meals for our family for the week with no difficulty. The only thing I left out according to her was a basting brush. That is supplies issue not the container so I get the de-merit not the box.

I was able to get mine from Sam's warehouse on sale for $20. Now I wish I had bought a couple.(This message has been edited by resqman)

Our Explorer Post took the tall ship trip 7 or 8 times.

Basically they provide a ship, a captain, and a weeks worth of food. You provide the crew. You do all the tasks including piloting the ship. You break into watches and pull shifts for all the tasks. As you can tell, we found it very enjoyable because we made it an annual trip.

The captains can provide a list of activities and based on your preferences, design a trip to include those. We went to several small islands with blue holes to go swimming. John Pennecamp is one of the 5 best places in the world to snorkle. Of course fishing, swimming, and sailing.

My sister was a counsler at the Sea Base in the early 80's for a summer. She had a great time. Basically living on the beach teaching snorkling, small boat sailing, swimming, fishing, and other beach front activities.

There were several mentions of rain and rotting wood.

Most boxes I have seen had a coat or two of some clear finish. I would probably use a marine varnish if I were to make one but it seems any decent exterior house paint or other exterior grade finish should prevent rotting wood.

It seems that patrol box with legs could easily be covered by a BBQ grill cover to keep rain off and out of the box. Inexpensive and easy. Throw the cover over the box whenever through with cleanup. If you get liquid sunshine, then the cover keeps the box dry. Even a simple tarp tossed over the top would seem to address the water infiltration issue.

What am I missing?

Do Patrol Boxes work? I guess the question really is are they worth the effort of storage, transporation, maintenance, etc?

They seem big and heavy. So big you need a trailer just to get them to campsites. Once there, you need an entire patrol to carry and setup. Once back home, they need to be restocked and stored between campouts. Periodically the quartermaster needs to clean, repair, and replace lost implements.

I have reviewed a variety of plans and drawings from the web. Each has a minor variation on the theme but are basically the same.

When I was a Boy Scout 25 years ago, we had a cardboard box. It stayed in my crawlspace between campouts. We kept a few kitchen utensils, pots, pans, etc. The designated patrol member would buy the food for the weekend and bring it in a different cardboard box. Once at the campsite, we would just pluck items from the boxes and throw them back in. At the end of the weekend, the food box would likely be burned in the campfire since the food would have been eaten. The other box went back to my crawl space until next time.

Does your troop use patrol boxes? Are they worth the effort and expense? If you don't use patrol boxes, how to you handle the whole kitchen experience on campouts?

(This message has been edited by resqman)