resqman

I had the opportunity to attend 2 years ago. The lads in my crew were 14. Two of the lads weighed about 100lbs. 85lb pack/canoe and 100lb boy. The guide required that every crew member carry a canoe at least once during the trek. The two smaller lads did not have the upper body strength, will or fortitude to get the canoe onto their shoulders unassisted. Once a canoe was set on their shoulders, they were able to carry the canoe the portage. They preferred carrying the gear packs.

My son carried the canoe almost every portage. One time he carried a pack and a canoe at the same time. He weighed about 175 at the time. Stocky kid with lots of natural strength. He wanted to test himself to see if he could manage.

Can smaller scouts manage? Sure. Will they enjoy the trip as much if they are continously pushed to their limits round the clock for a week? Probably not as much.

Adult scouters are volunteers. You are spending your money and your vacation time to chaprone the scouts of your troop on a cross country trip and participate in a phsycally challenging outdoor trek through wilderness. Regardless of what National or the Base sets as miniums, you have to feel comfortable in your assetments of the people who you will have to rely on or carry/drag along the journey. If the scout is not physically or metally able to complete the daily task, who is going to end up picking up the slack? I can tell you it is not likley going to be the guide. It is going to fall upon the adult to either cover or motivate the rest of the crew.

I like the idea of taking the scouts and the parents to the school track and letting them take a couple laps carrying a pack and then a canoe. Particuarly the parents pushing for their younger son. Let Dad take a few laps carrying the load. Then ask them to carry the canoe or pack up and down the bleachers a few times. A better simulation of the terrain.

You are not saying they can never go on an a high adventure trip. You are saying YOU are unwilling to take them THIS TIME. Waiting one more year is not going to kill them. They will be better outdoorsman and more physically capable to handle the rigours. Set a limit and stand your ground. You will earn a lot of respect by being realistic with the scouts and parents.

Keep in mind that each boy will have to carry an 85 lb canoe for 50-100 yards up and over a hill without any assistance multiple times a day, will have to carry a 75-85lb pack for 50-100 yards without assistance up and over a hill multiple times a day, and will have to paddle basically 8 hours a day in combination with carrying either a pack or canoe every day for a week.

The age thing is really just a guideline with the hopes the scouts will have enough physical growth to manage the strenous work of the trek along with enough outdoors experience and maturity to be away from Mom & Dad for a week and still be able to hold up mentally and physically.

We have 13 yr old scouts who could handle this with no problem. We have 14 yr old scouts who have a hard time going away for a weekend on flop and drop campouts.

I know your question was more about the techincal answer regarding age but keep in mind that there is a physical and mental aspect to high adventure. Some scouts would be better served by waiting a year.

Get a copy of the 1969 Field Book. Step by step with pictures of outdoor skills.

Son's pack hovered around 40-60 members. Active.

Son's troop hovers around 40-60 members. Active. No feeder pack. Pick up about 10-14 every yr for the last 4 out of 5 years. One year we got no rising webelos at all. Picked up a few from a nearby troop that was going through an adult leadership change. Pick up a few from people moving into town. Council frequently sends prospective members to son's troop.

Troop culture is at least one complete crew will attend one of the 3 national high adventure bases each summer. 75% or higher of all scouts 14 or older have attended at least 1 high adventure base but many have attended two. This summer will be the third trip for at least 2-3 scouts.

The rest of the troop attends summer camp. Troop rotates through about 5-7 camps within a 5 hour radius. Those that can't attend high adventure bases due to age, will have attended 3 different summer camps by age 14. While the idea the troop will attend summer camp every summer, the variety of different camps helps keeps things interesting and different.

I guess my question is why the Firefighters are funding the Post instead of the post members doing the fund raising?

I understand that Explorer Posts tend to be more career related and are usually sponsored by the career.

I was a volunteer FF for a while. Turn our gear, helmet, boots, gloves, nomex hood etc runs $1000+ per person. That can be expensive to buy a complete set for each post member. Partciularly when most fire departments require responders to be at least 18 yr old for insurance and legal reasons. The under 18 will be relagated to exterior structure duties. Important tasks but less likey to get in harms way.

Fire departments often have "boot drives" where they stand around holding a firemans boot asking for donations. Not much fun to stand around begging money. If the post members aren't raising their own money they don't really have a vested interest in the post.

What is the money used for?

Last weekend our troop participated in a winter campout. High 20's to low 30's at night. Gusting winds off the bay 200 yrds away. Camped in open field about 40 yards in diameter.

We had two lads who spread out a plastic sheet on the ground, then their sleeping pads, sleeping bag and that was it. Slept outside with no tent or tarp overhead. Second night they stacked a few logs in log cabin fashion around their tarp, ran a rope down the center and spread a tarp overtop approximately 2 feet off the ground. Tarp was staked at corners to the ground creating a wind break. The two ends were open. Entering the structure was noticably warmer than outside the structure. 1 night in the open air and 2 nights in their structure. 3rd morning woke to frost on ground and tents.

Both lads were often seen during the weekend wearing shorts. Both scouts had long pants and proper clothing for cold weather (multiple layers, gloves and hats, non-cotton, etc.) Tents were available for their use.

Ah, the excitement of youth to challenge themselves against nature. Wilderness survival MB and OA ordeal would be a opporuntity to teach rather than be tests for these two.

Patrols decide their menu 2 weeks before campout. Grubmaster is given menu list and is given a budget. Signed permission slips and money is due 1 week before campout. If you don't go, you only get a refund if grub has not already been bought or other camping fees not already paid.

Cooking is done as a patrol. Grubmaster buys the food but the cook duties rotate thru the patrols members throughout the weekend. If you cook, someone else cleans. If you had no duties this meal, you will next meal.

Adults cook as a patrol seperately from boys. Scouts are on their own for selecting, preparing, cooking and cleaning. No one will starve over a weekend. Might be hungry if they don't like the selection or something gets dumped or spilled.

PLC selects theme for Saturday evening meal. Patrols can cook anything they like as long as it fits the designated theme. Past themes have included all the various ethnic like Italian, Asian, Mexican. Must cook at least one part of meal in a box oven, must cook at least one thing in a dutch oven other that dessert. During the Seafood weekend, one patrol cooked Chicken and Corn served in a Coconut shell. C-food.

During troop run YLT, the troop provides the food but the scouts cook. The scouts are not given advance notice of the food choices. One time we supplied the patrols with fish fillets, potatoes, onions, cheese, and a bread mix. One patrol was given a deep fryer, one patrol a box oven, and the third patrol was given a cast iron skillet and stove. Reciepes were offered but they were allowed and encouraged to free style. Spices, flour, oil, butter, etc were available to all.

One time we gave each patrol couple pounds of hamburger. We set out rice, potatoes, onions, peppers, fruit, canned tomatoes, canned soups, canned veggies, Rotel, spices, pita, tortillas, loaf bread on a table. Scouts were given some time to review all the contents of the supplies. They broke off into patrols and made menus. Each patrol leader was given an opportunity to select 1 item from the pile of supplies. Then the other patrol leader selected an item and so on until each patrol had all the supplies they wanted. The drawback was if you planed a menu using rice, the other patrol may have selected the rice and left you potatoes. They then cooked whatever using the supplies they were able to "win" during the selection process. All the scouts voted they wanted to do that again.

Adults are restricted to the same budget as the scouts. All patrols have access to propane stoves, dutch ovens, box ovens, and patrol boxes of cooking pots and supplies.

We have had weekends where patrols have forgotten to bring food or patrol boxes. Somehow they have worked with other patrols to exist during the weekend. Hard won lessons that next time they seem to remember supplies.

Adults don't cook or clean for the scouts. That is their task.

Nothing is prepacked Saturday nite. A campout is all weekend long. We leave Friday afternoon and return Sunday afternoon. It never occured to me to plan additional activities on Sunday afternoon of a campout because I will need to clean and store my personal gear. It will be at least 3pm. Still need a shower and a bit of rest. Sunday afternoon is recuperate time.

No, our troop does not rush off Sunday morning. It if takes the lads hours to cook, eat, clean, and break camp, then it takes hours. It seems kinda like cheating to prepack Saturday nite, have a cold breakfast and rush off to get home to TV and video games.

I would say just the opposite for our troop.

Troop rules are No poptarts, hotdogs, or ramin noodles as part of patrol menus. The only exception is if the ramin noodles are a side dish or component of an overall recipe. Saturday nite campout meals are always a competition with a given theme. Patrols compete to see who can cook and present the best meal given the theme. We have had Iron Chef and Chopped style competetions where ingredients are provided with no prior knowledge and the patrols make meals with only the provided ingredients.

Some drivers choose to stop on the Sunday drive home for a snack but it is not expected and the lads are not told to bring money for Sunday lunch/snack. It is up to the driver. It is usually the same adult everytime and he is usually getting food to appease his picky eater son.

We hold 4 COH a year. Usually one of them is an ice cream social but more for fun than anything else. I havent noticed anymore or less attendance during the ice cream COH vs the others.

My son spent 4 years in Cub scouts and now 5 years with his troop. He is one of the oldest boys in the troop. While he is not an offical ASPL, the troop has two designated ASPLs, he and the SPL are best buddies and have been since cub scouts. The SPL often chooses my son to help manage the troop due to thier friendship.

Last night my son and the SPL presented a Good Cop/Bad Cop routine on how to pack for cold weather camping for the troop. They each brought a pack, one with silly nonsensible stuff and one with appropriate gear. One had a sombero, the other a wool cap, etc. The boys not only had the proper gear to show and demonstrate but were able to explain how and why with no prior preparation. They just got up and discussed things like keeping your face out of you sleeping bag so you don't exhale moisture into your bag.

Just so happens both lads have the same pack and same sleeping bag. They have camped and tented together for years. They were equally familar with each others gear.

It was really satisifying to see my son teaching and sharing his love and knowledge of outdoor skills with the younger scouts. The new scouts were oohing an ahhing over his knowledge, gear and skill level. The SPL and my son were able to hold their attention and share valuable information with just their presence and charisma. No need to continually call the crowd back into order or quiet hecklers.

Unlike sports there are not many times in scouts when individual make game changing plays. There are no pretty cheerleaders shouting your jersey number or name. There are times spent around campfires remembering the challenges of times past. But it was really special to see my son make the play, score the goal, or lead the team to victory not just as a team member but as a leader and teacher.

Just wanted to share a proud father moment.

Sunday morning is expected the scouts will cook breakfast, pack personal gear, and hang out rain flys to dry. They clean the patrol boxes, breakdown the dining flys and load the trailer. At least one police line is done through the campsite. Roses and Thorns and Scouts own service. Usually a brief strole through camp by the adults prompts a second police line. Vehicles are loaded and drive back to the church. Trailer is unloaded and gear stored in the shed. Any wet tents or dirty patrol boxes are distributed amoung the patrol members to be returned at next troop meeting. Scout are dismissed.

The normal plan is to return to the church between 1-2 to allow the church to clear out. Sometimes this means we may have a morning activity at camp before we leave to consume time to arrive back at the church at the appointed time. Driver cellphones are often used while driving back by the individual scouts to remind parents of a more specific time.

Adults don't participate in the police line. They make a strole through camp and encourage a second pass if too much stuff is found.

The scouts are responsible for their personal gear, patrol gear and troop gear. They used the equipment, they clean and stow the equipment.

Adults camp seperately. We clean the equipment we use. We place it near the troop trailer so the Quarter master can stow it in the trailer.

The troop leaves camp when the boys have everything stowed away. The troop expectation is this is BOY scouts not ADULT scouts. When we return to the troop church, no one is released until the trailer is unloaded, the shed packed, and any dirty or wet gear is distributed to the scouts for additional cleaning or drying. Then and only then are they released to their parents.

The closest thing adults do to cleaning up is make a final walk over the tenting area looking for lost or forgotten tent stakes. The scouts have already held a police line over the area at least once but often twice before the adults go and pick up the overlooked trash and tent stakes. Tent stakes cost money and we would rather not buy anymore than we have to.

The ability to post photos would be terrific.

Not required to enter username and password every time.

Spellcheck

I didn't play sports as a lad. I was involved in scouting. I have experience and a skill set born out of scouting and improved upon through similar adult advocations.

When my sons were too young for scouting, I joined a fire department and later a rescue squad. We wore uniforms with patches indicating our achievements. We took training and recieved patches for our accomplishments. We provided community service. We had joint equipment that had to be maintained and periodically replaced. We had regular meetings, planning sessions, and weekend events. We had enough members that we split up into smaller groups with individual leaders. As part of a Search & Rescue team I underwent training in outdoor survival skills. I took training in map & compass, wilderness first aid, communications, outdoor clothing, and leadership. It was as close to adult boy scouts as it could have possibly be.

After more than a decade, I quit to become a scout leader for my son. I wanted to introduce him to all the fun I had as a lad. In order to do that effectively within the scout program, I am provided the opportunity to share that passion with other boys of similar ages. As a leader, I usually have less time for one on one with my son. But he gets time with other adults with similar goals and passion.

As a parent, part of my job is to model positive traits and encourage my offspring to make good choices. I am initally in for my sons but I get something out it. It gives me an opportunity to work with adults who make my life better.

I do not tolerate the ignorant and unmotivated well. Personal flaw. Adult scouters I deal with tend to be educated or will openly declare that they are less knowledgeable in certain areas and either actively search out help or training.

Scouting has provided my sons and I with a common activity we can share. I am in scouting for my sons, other peoples sons and myself. If I did not get something out of it, I would find something else that would be a postive influence in my life.

I remember how much work it was being a den leader providing a challenging program for my son and his den weekly. My son got to test out many of the den and pack meeting activities prior to the actual meetings. The fun ones were great while others you could see his boredom during the meeting because he had already done that.

I made a hat/headress for the ceremony from a horned viking helmet and a yard of black fake fur to approximate a buffalo hat for the medicine man to wear. That was the part of the entire ceremony that my son liked the most. The following week we bought a second viking helmet which we still have and wear from time to time 5 years later.

Last night he came home from his Philmont planning session and said he was going to volunteer to be the crew leader. Really cool to see him grow up and start leading adventures of his own.

Just returned from ECOH. 3 Eagles held a joint ceremony. One earned the rank 2 yrs ago and just never had a ceremony. One earned the rank several months ago and the third completed the requirements within the last month. All have turned out to be nice young men.

One of the Eagles was in my cub scout den for 4 years. He is the first of the scouts in my den to earn the rank of Eagle. The two others still in scouting are both Life scouts. One only lacks his project and the other lacks 4 MBs and a project. Both are 15 so still have plenty of time.

He awarded me the mentor pin this afternoon, my first. Neat to have been around this young man for 8-9 years and see him grow and mature. His younger brother joined our troop about a year ago.

The article is written by a helicopter parent who is having a hard time backing away. Parents don't want to be parents, they want to be a friend and cheerleader.

If parenets would be parents, it would be easier. Set rules and stick to them when the child is born. Don't threaten with things you can't back up. Teach them rules and boundaries from day one and you will seldom have to really lay down the law when older. Kids will always try to push the boundaries, thats their job. My kids know that if asked and answered 3 times, we are not going to give in. If they have a reasonable arguement, better be offered before the 3rd no.

I remember sitting at the playground when mine were 3-5 yrs old. A mom was hovering over her child as he tried to climb a 3 ft high sloped ladder. She was all around, over, in between trying to be where ever he may fall... into 6 inches of sand. Mine were smaller/younger and were all over the play structure while I sat on the park bench in the shade. If they fell, I waited until they cried. Then I would ask them if they were Ok? Most times you can tell by the cry if they are really hurt or just bumped. That kid did not know how to play with other kids because Mom was his playmate.

Everyone learns by doing. Ask the 4 patrol buddies who pitched there tent in the convulence of all the drainage ditches. When it rained that night and their sleeping bags were floating, they leanred a lesson. Guess who always has a high and dry tent site since? Some learn by example but some have to pee on the electric fense for themselves.

We have some pick eaters in the troop. No one has starved during a weekend campout. By Sunday, even things you have never tried or don't like taste good. They learn to be better at voicing their concerns during meal planning before the campout and/or being the cook instead of the fire tender.

All Scouting is Local.

I serve my troop to the best of my ability and time available. There are a few things that regular posters on this forum would point at and complain. But for the most part, the troop is healthy and thriving. The lads are learning new skills and sticking with the program. There is a fully staffed committee and enough uniformed ASMs to have one assigned to each patrol. There is money in the treasury and a scout shed full of gear.

Could the troop fine tune some aspects? Sure. Overall I am amazed at the number and breadth of issues that other units seem to have and discuss here that the units I have served did not or do not have.

Put your focus on your unit. Make it the best you can. If you spend too much time listening to all the woes and complaints here, you won't have time to serve your unit. Try to implement the good ideas here.

Why must scouting be inexpensive? My son's participate in scouting because it is fun with a goal. Certainly the troop can accomplish many of the goals in mismatched street clothes, using worn out gear, and camping in nearby campgrounds. But why limit outselves?

My sons played on sports teams. They required mulitple uniforms, outerwear, warmup uniforms, practice uniforms, gear bags, special footware, and when they traveled, they stayed in nice hotels. One son was a member of a travel sports team so every weekend 8 months of the year he had a game within a 3 hr drive radius. 8am game meant the entire team traveled the night before, spent the night in a hotel, ate in restaurants all weekend, etc. Ran about $5000 a year for all costs.

We spend about $600 a year for summer camp, camping trips, dues, activity fees etc. for one son to be in scouts. High Adventure add another $1500 per year. 4 years of scouting plus 2 high adventure trips is still less than a single year of sports. We feel like we are getting a deal!

The troop I serve has fundraising events. We strongly encourage the lads to raise their own funds. We let parents know the costs of joining the troop before they sign up. The parents make the decision to fund the program by allowing the child to join the troop and continue to pay for ongoing costs. If the parents don't like the costs, they can become more involved in the fundraising or switch troops.

Several years ago we had parents complaining about the costs of weekend camping. We starting putting a breakdown of the costs of each trip on the permission slip. We also tried to alternate months between local trips and more costly trips. Once parents saw the breakdown, the complaints disappeared. Yes, we have scouts who can't pay for summer camp and the troop has a campership fund for those who need it.

Scouts is not free. To compete with other programs, don't afraid to think big and spend accordingly.

"I don't trust the adult leaders but I keep quiet ... I don't want these bozos taking it out on my kid. I learned my "place" at the first meeting I went to ... some white haired pontificating windbag turned and walked away from me the moment I said that I'd never been a Scout.

Guess I'm not worth the time of day if I don't know the proverbial secret handshake."

Your not worth the time of the day because YOU relegated YOURSELF to the sidelines. Participate in events and you will either develop a trust for the leaders or you will be a force of change. There is no requirement for adult leaders to be outstanding outdoorsman with years of experience and depth of outdoor skils. They are simply involved parents helping the activity their sons have chosen to be the best it can be.

If parents have a fear of the leaders in thier son's troop, then the parents need to either pull their children from the troop or start attending every event.

I know that when my sons played sports there was no 2 deep requirement. No other school age activity I know of requires Youth Protection training or 2 deep leadership. I would say that all 11-18 yr olds are in more danager from all other activities besides scouts as a result.

The troop I serve discourages parents from attending outings unless they have taken YPT. 20 minutes online. We show the YPT video as a troop meeting usually in April for all scouts and scouters.

I am not aware of any attempt by our troop to poll the parents about the effectiviness of YPT or the troops implmentation of YPT.

If a parent or parents has concerns, I would recommend they first take the YPT online training and start attending events. If that does not satisfy their concerns, I would recommend they look for a troop that better fits their needs.

I live within a few hour drive to the old site and the new site. Travel costs could be small for me to attend. I am just confused about why I would want to go to a Jamboree to start with.

Can someone help me understand what you got out of attending a Jamboree in the past? Why would someone want to go to a Jamboree?

If your troop cannot run without one leader for one weekend, then your program is suffering from lack of adult leadership and needs more trained leaders.

I did not say you were not busy or dedicated enough. I said your unit does not have enough leaders if the loss of one leader for one weekend cancels events.

I would not be happy if I am forced to take all 4 required SM trainings again. I agree that if the trainings expire, then there should be refresher courses or continuing education offered instead of requiring leaders to take the entire course over. Or better yet, advanced training so that there is progression of skills. A quick covering of the newly mandated ideas of the week to satisfy the newly revised national version of whatever and on with the training.

"I have a sneaking feeling I am being put on the path to chase a Trained patch, not something that would be helpful to our troop and the boys. Yes, I do have all the other required training plus a bunch more."

Putting all leaders on a path to chase a Trained patch is a bad thing?

I have taught IOLS several times. 1/3 of the students have the deer in the headlights look the whole weekend. Too much material, too little time. They are overwhelmed with the outdoors skills and the patrol method all at once. All new to them. Very worthwhile for them and the scouts they serve.

1/4 could easily be on the other side presenting the material. They are there to get the Check Mark. It also shows the new volunteers that just because you have experience, you still need to participate. It also stresses the importance of teaching, presenting, doing things the BSA way first and foremost. Military methods and scouts methods vary widely. The two programs have very different goals, equipment and funding. What works in one may not be appropriate for the other.

Every scout deserves a trained leader. If that means some leaders will have to sit thru a class to confirm they know the BSA way, I see that as a small price to pay. If your troop cannot run without one leader for one weekend, then your program is suffering from lack of leadership and needs more trained leaders.