resqman

I have two sons.  One added his ECOH to the end of the quarterly troop COH.  The other held a dedicated event at the site of his project. 

Troop tradition is whatever the boy decides.  Some add to the regular COH.  Others schedule dedicated ECOH.  As mentioned, the dedicated events tend to have a much smaller crowd.  Typically guests with personal invitations attend with just a few scouts from the troop.  Most troop scouts don't make the effort to arrange transportation to the event and forget/don't show. 

While earning the rank of Eagle requires a lot of effort by the boy, it hopefully is not the crowning event of his entire life.  Sounds like the dedicated ECOH in the original posters topic is planning to be a bit over the top.  Is the event for the scout or the parents?   I think sometimes the event is more for the parents to show off their son than it is for the scout to be congratulated. 

Was member of SAR team for a decade or so. 

There is only one victim but the victim leaves many clues.  SAR teams don't look for victims, they look for clues that become a trail to the victim.  Victims often drop and leave behind what would seem very important items.  Clothes, packs, food, etc.  Victims always go to water.  Something as small as a puddle is all it takes. 

Victims do things that don't make logical sense. They will enter a trail into the woods that heads downhill.  They panic and instead of following the trail uphill, they will go farther downhill and towards water.   Tracked a mother/son team.  They entered woods across the street from their house at dusk.  Mom was afraid of the dark, son did not take his meds.  Son was relying on Mom to act rational but she could not.  Son could not help due to lack of meds.  They made some real odd choices.  As we followed their trail, we could see street lights 100-150 yards away.  They walked farther into the woods.  They carried their bikes through briars and a swamp instead of staying on the trail. 

If you are setting up a scenario, the victim should leave a trail of dropped items.  Food wrappers, a glove here, a hat there, bandanna, whistle, empty canteen, etc.  They can leave foot prints in soft ground.  They can break small branches at waist to ground level.  Crushed vegetation, scuffed leaves, are clues someone went that way. 

Contact the local Sheriffs office about SAR.  If they don't do it, they know who they call.  Also see if there is a local NASAR chapter in your area. 

Like several others, I became an EMT based on the first aid training I learned in Scouting.  Helped lots of other people.

Instead of a single MB, I think the MB program is the best.  It encourages scouts to achieve something.  It gives them a goal. 

I stood in amazement one troop meeting.  I gave the PL a box of rope cut into lengths, two dozen dowels about 5 feet long and 1.5 inches in diameter, a rope making machine, a ball of twine and the pioneering merit badge book.  The scouts taught each other knots, lashing and how to make a rope.  That one hour of boy led fun taught many skills beside simple knot tying.  They may not remember how to tie every knot the rest of their life, may not remember the specifics of every type of lashing, but they learned how to work with others and teach themselves a new skill.  They learned to rely on each other and help each other.  Those lessons were more important than the specific MB tasks.

Similarly, the PLC chooses a specific theme for the Saturday evening meal for each campout.  Patrols can cook anything they like in any manner they like.  But there is a competition.  It started out as a way to encourage better cooking.  First time, adults came by and sampled from each patrol.  Next campout, the patrols made presentation plates and delivered to the adult area.  Not because there were required, but they thought it might help them win the competition.  Cooking skills improved considerably.  Gone were hot dogs.  Scouts were cooking salmon on cedar planks, bringing a myriad of spices and flavorings to coax the food to perfection.  Box ovens, Dutch ovens, propane cook stoves, turkey fryers, all were fair game.  Cooking merit badge was no longer a chore and now was seen as too easy.

If first aid is ruled out, then swimming MB needs to be in the top 3. 

Congratulations!  Happy days when each of my two sons earned their award.  Know the feeling.  Bask in a job well done by the whole family.

qwazse, on 08 Oct 2015 - 12:33 AM, said:

Nobody speaking here:

I have a camp-box specifically for family camping trips!

Technically, my wife's uncle built it, so he's the nobody.

Add another Nobody to the list.  I have a family camp cook box.  Plastic thing I bought at Costco/BJs/Sam's Club warehouse years ago.  Has divided sections, drawers, 4 metal plates, bowls, cups, and flatware.  Lid comes off, turns upside down to become a washing sink.  Lid creates area to store and carry a two burner camp stove.  Filled with all the various kitchen tools and supplies it is really, really heavy.  But, set it on the end of a picnic table, remove the lid, open the two sides with wings that fold out to form side tables and it is a joy to cook in, on, and around. 

I built a traditional wood style patrol box.  Thing of woodworking beauty.  Included a variety of neat tricks from the various plans floating around on the net.  Legs can slide into pockets and form carry poles.  Notches cut on the interior to carry a propane tank tree pole so can run multiple items from a single 20lb tank.  Pole with hook that attaches to side to hang lantern high above eyesight so not blinded.  Both sides fold down so two work surfaces.  Top and both work surfaces are covered with laminate so easy cleanup.  With two work surfaces, one side is prep, items placed on top and retrieved from other side for cooking.  Small holes around the edge of the work surfaces to allow installation of large S hooks so utensils can be hung for ready access or to air dry after cleaning.  Place bungee cord through a paper towel roll.  Place each end of bungee in small holes and hang paper towel roll underneath the work surface.  Hang grocery plastic bag from hooks for waste.  Laminated KP chart attached to side.  Fill in names with grease pencil or white board markers.

Gave the behemoth to my sister.  She uses it for family camping, girl scout troop camping, cub scout pack camping and now the 'adult patrol' of her son's troop uses it when camping.  She sets a 5 gallon water jug on the top on one side.  She mentioned that one night when it was back lit from the campfire, it looked a bit like a deer standing there with the water jug as its head and the lantern pole a bit like antlers.  It is large and heavy.  With the legs as carry poles, 4 younger scouts can lift and move it with relative ease. 

Regardless of what gear ends up being purchased, I recommend color coding the gear.

Our troop has plastic bins for patrol boxes.  Each and every thing in the box either has a piece of colored electrical tape or a spray painted area.  Everything in box A is marked with Red,  everything in box B is marked Green, everything in box C is marked Yellow, etc.   At one time the boxes had Patrol names written on them.  But the patrol names changed too often to keep up with it.  As a patrol disbanded, aged out, patrols reformed, etc. the box was reassigned to the newest, latest patrol.  They get the "Color X" Box.  The troop has 8 patrol boxes each with its own color.

It was interesting to see at the end of every campout, every box was rainbow.  Patrols shared, borrowed, stole, put away in the wrong box.  Periodically, the troop QM would have a clean and sort work day.  All the gear was cleaned, sorted and put back in the proper color box.  I know, each patrol should have its own QM and the gear should be cleaned and maintained by the patrol QM. 

With all equipment color coded, scouts could easily retrieve borrowed equipment to make sure their patrol box stayed properly supplied.  If equipment was lost, misplaced, never returned, it was up to the patrol QM to arrange replacement.  Colored tape and paint were made available to label any new supplies.

It looks like the evidence is in, overprotecting our kids is causing real harm. What can we do?

All scouting is local.  National sets policy and the general tone.  How the local troop operates is often different.  Boys join scouting because of a marketing promise of adventure.  Some troops do better than others at delivering adventure.  As mentioned earlier, using matches and knifes is an adventure to 11 yr olds.   

Troop outings can have similar but varied programs for the various skill and age levels.  Younger less experienced scouts operate from a basecamp and work on skills like Totin Chip, firebuilding, and other skills.  Building a tower or other camp gadgets via rope lashings can be an adventure.   Older or more experienced scouts backpack away from basecamp to a different site for the evening and return the following day.  They can practice land navigation, rock climbing, or other more challenging activities as part of their trek. 

Out troop sends a crew to Northern Tier, Philmont, Betchel, or Sea Base each year.  The months leading up to the trip, the crew is involved in various training activities to prepare them for their more strenuous tasks.  Troop rotates thru the 4 bases so between ages 14 and 18 a scout could attend all 4 bases.  The skills learned and practiced at the bases comes back to the troop as experienced scouts who make better Patrol leaders and SPLs.  Requests for more challenging monthly campouts are fed to the PLC and the skill level of all the scouts increases. 

If you want to limit helicopter parenting, limit adult attendance to only uniformed leaders and only as many as needed to drive the scouts to the event.  Seed the PLC with ideas for more adventurous outings.  Recommend alternating between costly trips and local trips to allow all scouts to participate in the troop calendar.  Encourage 14 yr old + scouts to earn Scout Lifeguard so the troop can operate its own outdoor water programs. 

Flat water canoeing on the local lake is very doable for an entire troop.  The council often has canoes available to check out and use for weekends. High adventure crew hones skills before setting off to BWCA.  Younger scouts can work on the canoeing MB.  Maybe attend a white water outfitter for a rafting adventure.  Similar but different skills.  The National White Water training facility in North Carolina is like a Adventure park for scouts.  White water rafting, Zip lines, flat water canoeing, artificial rock wall climbing.  What's not to like?   Troop camps at nearby camp ground to contain costs. 

Indoor climbing gyms can easily host a weekend bouldering and climbing session.  The gym has qualified instructors and safety equipment.  Easy way to introduce challenging activities in a safe environment.   Follow up with a weekend at the local scout camp climbing tower.  Then climbing on real rock.   Easy ramp up from intro to topic to outdoor challenge.  All within the G2SS and relatively low cost.  Younger scouts get a taste and yearning for the next level.  Older scouts get to test themselves. 

The first pic looks like out West but the second pic looks like North Carolina around the Natahalla river.

We had a rule that every member of the crew had to carry a canoe at least once during the trek.  All the lads in our crew were 14 yr old and small.  Too weighed just a tad over 100 lbs.  The other two were not much heavier.  It took two lads to lift the canoe to rest it on the shoulders of the one carrying the canoe but they did it.   My son ended up carrying a canoe almost every portage.  But he is sturdy.   Just to see if he could do it, he carried a pack on the front of his chest and a canoe at the same time during one portage.  He wanted the bragging rights.

So even the smaller/younger lads can carry a 80lb metal canoe.  The gear packs are about the same weight.  The metal canoes are a bit more durable and around the younger lads it seemed sensible. 

I would recommend cardio exercises for the adults.  Carrying 80lb packs or canoes up and over hills 10+ times a day and you will start wheezing if you not in shape.  Paddling all day was not a problem.

Most adult leaders in Scouting have at least one son in the program.  Those adults are often leaders to fill two goals, time with their son AND to help other scouts. 

I have fond memories of my time in scouting as a lad.  I wanted my sons to have similar experiences.  I volunteered partly so I could help provide a program I thought would be fun and challenging and partly to be around my sons.  Oh and because it was fun for me.

Just because a parent wants to volunteer to be a leader does not mean they are helicopter parents managing their every child's movement.  Sometimes it means the parent sees a need where they can add value.  If a troop is reluctant to accept new leadership, that is a potential sign to choose a different troop.  Obviously due diligence must be done to determine on what basis they are rejecting new volunteers.

In my nephew's troop, they often have as many as 20+ adults with only 30 odd scouts on a campout.  I believe they have too many volunteers and are not properly restricting access by parents/adults.

Any hobby or activity costs something.  Time, money, effort.  It also means you forgo other opportunities to spend your time, money and effort on other choices.  Scouting has a reputation for being low cost.  In my dealings with scouting, keeping costs low has always been considered. 

But scouting also has opportunities for participants to experience more challenging or distant events that do cost substantial amounts of time, money and effort.  Jamborees and High Adventure Bases are two that come immediately to mind.  Not every scout can afford the cost in time, money or effort to attend these events.  And that's Ok.  Part of what makes these events special is the high cost in time, money and effort.

One of my sons participated in travel sports with paid coaches.  Expensive in time, money and effort.  Costs were high to the player and family.  It was an activity that we felt was worthwhile.  The other son participated more heavily in scouting attending all three national HA bases.  Both sons were involved in fund raising to allow them to participate in these activities.  Both were unable to attend other events as a result. 

Those involved in planning the events for scouting seemed to be much more cost conscience than those involved in the travels sports.  Probably because those involved in the sports knew up front the costs were going to be high and voluntarily signed up to be in the specific  program. I think scouting would be well served to help incoming families more aware of the potential costs. 

Scouting is a good program.  Each scout gets a slightly different application of the program based on his troop.  Is it the best program for all lads?  Not sure.

I have two sons.  One an athlete and one a scout.  Sports served the one son well.  He needed the constant physical outlet and the challenge of competing against others, both on his team and other teams. The numerous practices and games took up much of his time and gave him a sense of purpose.  Sports did teach him some basic respect to others.  Sports goal is different from scouting.  It is not to develop citizenship or personal leadership.   After playing sports for almost a decade at a high level including travel teams with paid coaches, he decided to try scouting at age 15.  He continued to play sports and somehow weave scouting into a rather full schedule.  Through scouts he had to learn about how to fold a flag, basic first aid skills, and introduced to a number of citizenship ideas.  Scouting gave him a wider base of knowledge about the world but could not give him everything he needed in an afterschool hobby.  Scouting helped refine him but it was not the best activity for him. 

The other son started as a cub scout and stayed in the program until he aged out.  It was a really great program for him. It met his needs intellectually and physically.  It gave him a purpose and something to excel at.  He attended all three national high adventure bases, held leader positions in his troop, and is a superior outdoorsman.  Around age 15, some of his school buddies talked him into working out with them at the school weight room.  Turns out they all were on the high school football team. He made the school team and played a season.  Being a member of a sports team gave him a wider base of knowledge about the world but could not give him everything he needed in an afterschool hobby. Sports helped refine him but it was not the best activity for him.

I have seen first hand where scouting is a good program for some boys and a great program for others.  I have seen where they thrived in one troop and struggled in another.  I have seen boys who left the program because it could not offer then what they needed.  Does every child have to be a scout?  No.  But I do think that all children would gain something from being in the program even for a short while. 

I'm a little on the fence on the whole thing...it's not that he mismanaged his time as much as Scouting, at least subconsciously, reminded him of his Dad's death, not something your average teen wants to be reminded about.

 

By getting back in, and then not being able to succeed ... might leave a bad taste in his mouth.,..and he's got big fish to fry over the next seven years.

 

Dwelling on this (which I could easily see him doing) could be a detriment. I'll have to have a talk about that.

"then not being able to succeed"...

Scouting is a journey of development.  Rank is a way to celebrate that journey.  Earning the rank of Eagle is not a requirement of Scouting.  It is a marker of achievement.  Took me 4 years between Life and Eagle.  Mostly because I did not really care about the rank.  I was having fun and going on adventures with my friends.  Parents stepped in towards the end and strongly encouraged me to wrap up a few loose ends.  Glad they did.  Had I not completed those last few requirements, it would not have wiped out the almost decade of scouting.   Life for life is not a failure. 

Picture from the lads trip.  They survived 9 days on the trail.  Looking forward to the stories!

Wore then as a lad.  Too much trouble with pin backs to wear for daily uniform.  Will put them on for COH.  Occasionally a scout will ask why I have so many different colors.  Yellow, Red, Green and Blue.   I was a cub, boy, explorer and adult scouter.

As adults, we have seen the consequences of actions.  Sometimes our actions and sometimes others actions.  The scouts don't always have the experience.  Well in this case, they have the experience of last month.  But some people have to experience the same problem multiple times before they learn to prevent the problem.

How many adults do you know who constantly loose their keys?  Ridiculous.  Put your keys in the same place every time you enter your home.  Never lost.  Even after years of loosing their keys, they never learn.

I was a Life scout by age 13-14.  Didn't earn the rank of Eagle until couple of months before age 18.   I was in scouting for the fun and adventure.  Rank was not terribly important to ME.   I was earning merit badges because there were lots of opportunities to earn them.  My unit was very active and did some really cool things.  One weekend we went Soaring (powerless flight airplane).  That only took a few hours so we also white water rafted.  We had to travel to another area to participate so also camped out that weekend.  Busy weekend.

Just as my parents made school grades important, they felt scouting was important.  They allowed me to dawdle along but prompted me more as I approached age 18.  Like most teens, I was more interested in having fun than working on the more academic related merit badges like personal finance, citizenship, etc.  Who wants to keep a record of every expenditure for 90 days?  No one. 

As long as the scout is active in the troop, I would not worry.  At age 17, then as a parent I would have a discussion about finishing up what they started. 

@@resqman surely they are Tweeting it.

No tweets but the Donald's parents have asked for a text once a day to confirm they are still alive and well.   Meant they had to pack a spare battery for the phone.

They were making haste.  The were backpacking 3 mph while I was with them up and over mountains.  Oh, to be young again. 

My son is 19. He and his chum Donald were in scouting together since Wolf scouts.  They joined the same troop and same patrol.   They tented together, camped together, went to summer camp together.  They were SPL and ASPL.  They attended Philmont together.  They both attended Northern Tier and Florida Seabase but at different times.  My son was the crew leader for their Philmont trek while Donald was the Chaplin.   They both earned the rank of Eagle.  Both have aged out and are currently enrolled in college.  They travel back and forth between their two colleges several hours apart to hike, camp and enjoy each others company.

Today the two of them started a 9 day, 110 mile backpacking trip from Springer Mtn, Ga. to the state border of Georgia/North Carolina along the Appalachian Trail.  They planned it. They figured out public transportation from their home in North Carolina to the trail head in Ga. They organized their gear, made menu selections, and mailed themselves supplies so they can resupply along the trail. 

The years of scouting have prepared them to plan and lead their own expeditions into the outdoors.  They invited me to join them at the southern most point of the Appalachian Trail and backpack along with them for half of the first day.  I got a hug from both when I headed back to the vehicle and they headed North to adventure.  I can hardly wait to hear the tales from the adventure. 

Most boys probably could not tell you who the CC is in my troop.  The lads interact with the SM and ASMs.  CC and the committee are totally behind the scenes and have virtually no interaction with lads other that BOR. 

I would acknowledge the CC's request and thank him for the input.  The scouts understand that there are multiple events and are willing to accept limited turnout.  Scouts in our troop either have the ceremony after a regular COH or have one at another location at the day & time of their choosing.  The scouts and leaders they want to attend usually get a special request and confirmation they can attend.  The rest of the troop receives a general invitation with the understanding that many will chose to not attend. 

The ECOH is not about the CC, it is about the Eagle Scout.  If the CC told my son he could not have a ECOH on his chosen date, my sons would shrug their shoulders and say So, don't come.  

I have two sons.  One had his after the standard COH.  Much less work with planning.  Other one had his at the local state park at the site of his Eagle project.   Both had a ceremony.  Both got the award.  Both are pleased with what, when, where, & how it happened.  CC and committee had no involvement in the ECOH. 

What BOYS want from a troop and what Parents want from a troop seldom match up. 

There is a lot of talk about leadership, responsibility, etc. in this forum.  Those are the kind of things parents often want their sons to get from the program.   Talk to the boys and they talk about fun, adventure, camping, climbing, canoeing, fire, outdoors, etc.  

Adults talk about cost, planning, travel time, scheduling.  Boys talk about fun, adventure, fire, extreme, etc.

Adults talk about advancement, requirements and time to Eagle.  Boys talk about fun, adventure, fire.

One scout visiting asked if he could have bacon during campouts.  That was his deciding factor.  Once we let him know he chose the menu and he cooked the food, he signed up.  Everything else to him was OK or could be worked around if he could have as much bacon as he wanted, whenever he wanted.  He quickly became one of the outstanding scouts in the troop.  He was a natural leader with very good organizational skills.  The boys would follow him anywhere. 

Scout age children are presented with very few opportunities to make real decisions that affect them.  Many have never been given the opportunity to make a choice and have to live with the consequences.  Its amazing what happens when they get a chance to start managing their own lives.

The troop I serve discourages parents attending campouts for the first 3 months.  Give the lads a chance to figure things out among themselves.  Parents need to learn to cut the apron strings for themselves as much as the lads.  Parents can and occasionally do attend, but they are kept away from the lads and not allowed to interfere.  By the end of the weekend, most are amazed at their son and the other lads. 

Duh.  Look at todays school system and how boys are punished for being boys.  They are told to sit, be still and be quiet.  In other words, act like a woman.   ADD and ADHD are higher in males.  Maybe because Activity is a natural characteristic of males.  Adult males don't sit around and gab with their male friends, they go out and do an activity.  When men are bored, they do stuff.  They start small and escalate the activity until it explodes or someone gets hurt.  Then they up the ante and do it again. 

Sounds like the task that MI5 had was better suited to the general female way of doing things and not well suited for the general way in which males do things. 

Sure there are plenty of exceptions and many will call this sexist.  Sports teams don't select valedictorians, they select athletes,  Computer companies pick students.  Choose the best person for the job.  

Good camp.  I have attended as an adult camper twice.  Hope they are able to raise the money and make the repairs in time for summer.

2 of 8 Webelos attending.

The parents of newly crossed over Webelos may not have enough confidence in the troop leadership to let their child go out in the cold for so long. To the parents, they are still children, while to you they are scouts. I would also agree that lack of gear may be a tipping point for newly crossed over. I would bet that some of the lack of attendance is from parents with holding scouts vs. new scouts not wanting to go.

How many of the Webelos have ever spent a weekend or even a single night away from their parents? I bet only 2-3 of the 8 have ever spent a night away from their parents. Fear of the unknown for both the parent and the scout. Add in lack of preparation time and not terribly surprising.

Keep in mind that Webelos and parents are used to 2-3 den meetings a month with maybe one or two campouts a year with the parents in tow. Meetings every week and a camping trip every month is a big change. Expecting 100% attendance when they crossed over less than a week ago is a tall order. For newly crossed over Webelos, a weekend without parents is challenge in itself. Add in weather and it may be too overwhelming for the first week in a troop.

In the South, anything under 30 degrees is considered extreme. We spend the three meetings prior to a winter campout teaching cold weather camping. Many of our scouts don't even own gloves because there is little to no need in their daily life. Winter camping is a true challenge for them.

Guessing from your name you are located in NY where winter is common and people have more experience.

Troop posts a calendar a year in advance. These months the campout is the third weekend, these months, the second weekend etc. Calendar says campout. Not where, just reserves the date. Then all the scout families add the dates to the family calendar up to a year in advance. They know that Scout is going camping and all other activities get moved around that weekend instead of the other way round.

We tended to pencil in basic ideas like canoe trip, backpacking, etc. when sending out the calendar. 3 months prior to the trip, start firming up the details. We also tried to alternate between lower cost "basic camping trip" and higher cost "Event/activity with camping" so that costs would cycle. Canoeing could be a higher cost trip due to travel to water, equipment rental, etc. Hike would be a lower cost trip because no additional expenses just to hike.

Fluid patrols defeat the purpose of being a patrol. Only two scouts, one tent. Just the right size. Each scout has more personal responsibility at meal time but with only two, they have the flexibility to do some real fun stuff that an entire patrol may balk at because someone doesn't like mushrooms, and another doesn't like tomatoes, etc.

If the activities are fun and viewed as worthwhile, the scouts will forego the non-scout activity/event. It scouts events are not fun, then the program needs help. Plan better events and then participation will fix itself.

My social butterfly son skipped some hoopla event at school to attend a camporee because they were offering an E. Prep MB class that weekend. Neither his patrol or troop participated in the camporee but he did. He did not join scouts until age 15. He had to sacrifice a number of non-scout events to complete everything by 18. He also played sports and somehow was able to play all this games and attend scout events. Tough but he wanted to Eagle. If you build it (the program), they will come.