qwazse

There’s a bitter truth that we must recognize: The MBC concept was not designed to involve registration with the BSA. Counselors were ideally the best qualified people in your community for a given subject — not necessarily scouters or ever scouts. They way it was supposed to work is the DC would meet someone, ask if it would be alright if every now and then a scoutmaster would send a boy or two their way to learn about their hobby or profession, shake hands, and that would be it. The point was to teach scouts that they could master all kinds of really cool stuff by talking to perfect strangers. Registering MBCs, background search, national training including ensuring current YPT ... all of that is a ten year old retrofit. And it kinda teaches boys a different concept — that they can only learn really cool stuff by talking to thoroughly vetted strangers. Well, guess what, folks? That’s just not true. There are perfect strangers outside of BSA from whom our youth are currently learning stuff just fine. So, if the system is a mess, it’s because BSA had to impose rules that the system was not built to enforce. The belief that with a little more streamlined database management, all these outstanding teachers in our community will fall in line is a complete and utter farce.

Thanks ‘skip. Our governor just increased restrictions. Our streets are empty, not unlike yours, I suspect. Switching back to online meetings hasn’t been as successful for us ... especially since next meeting was supposed to be our Christmas party. We’ve got in a few more campouts than you, although I missed the last two. Your scouts are asking some good questions. Hopefully the answers will inspire a few to do some great things.

Well, the medical metaphor might be inducing coma.

You're description is fit. I describe it as defensive scouting. Or, metaphorically, "circling the wagons." Sadly, I don't think it will do much to stop incoming projectiles.

A second ecological fallacy in the same thread!!!! With such a policy, every Mediterranean personality would be removed from scouting. Meanwhile, very good predators would bide their time, culling vulnerable youth with false verbal assurances that he/she is on the youth's side when nobody else is, and nobody else needs to know, and if they did they wouldn't believe him/her anyway, etc .... Worse, since kids might not open up to anyone else unless they've communicated via an occasional hug head pat or pat on the back -- the ongoing horror might even be better hidden. We need to constantly remind ourselves that it's a very big country, and one group might be more formal than others. But another group might read that as a signal of profound mistrust. A better policy: do what you were brought up to do in front of your current peers ... have them correct you if it doesn't fit the prevailing local culture. (I heard story after story of folks in my community doing this for my grandparents and recently arrived cousins.) And yes, teaching youth to be resilient and negotiate these troubled waters is part of the program. They, not we, are on front line. They need their defenses strengthened. We need to learn how to do that. This will be a continuing challenge as our culture is rapidly shifting. In some ways those shifts are occurring faster than the ability to properly analyze them.

For an Eagle project, the beneficiary cannot be a private concern. But for a generic conservation project and fundraiser for the boys, it's a nice gig. Can the scouts camp on your property? That would be the icing on the "cake". For quite a few years, our troop had a prime spot of land to camp on, and in return they cleared trees of the lake's dam, built bridges to preserve streams, burnt brush, and generally got head-to-toe dirty -- when they weren't fishing, boating, or swimming. I think a consult with your state agricultural agent or game commissioner would be a good idea. What happens to water, even on private land, is a big concern. They might have other pointers of ways scouts could contribute to a healthy lake.

What we have done: suspend he scout from the troop. Let him know that when he returns (say after six months), you can consider picking up where you left off. Our scout never returned.

Can't say about the current filings, but among the "banned from scouting" files are some erstwhile explorer post leaders. And of the assaults on females that I've heard of, the perpetrators were male. But, we also need to consider that most mentors in professional positions at the time (officers, doctors, etc ...) were primarily male. That landscape is rapidly changing, and across all organizations we can expect the rate of acts by female perpetrators to rise as more women assume those roles.

Based on my experience at World Jambo (and other places), America is enduring rapid cultural swings on the boundaries of touching. Scouts in other countries -- within their own boundaries -- have been content with their norms, and continue to be perplexed that we can't seem to make up our mind on this issue. So, depending on where an observer comes from we can be menacingly affectionate, exemplary, or atrociously callous. If Saint Paul were to visit our troops -- especially those chartered by Christian COs -- he'd be fine with the sex segregation, but mortified that we don't "greet one another with a holy kiss." It would be small consolation that we are the most "the hand-shakiest people" in the country. (I think I'm quoting @yknot). It's hard to say where the boots-on-the-ground boundaries will land post-pandemic. But I imagine that, once vaccinated, many of us will cherish returning to hugs and handshakes.

I’m gonna take my horse to The Old Scout Trail I’m gonna ride ... ‘till I can’t no more

@CynicalScouter you said that a law prohibited such programs, and I pointed out that that is a fallacy. You attributed cause to legislation when the reality is that such total desegregated programs are unpopular. The observation across multiple countries has been that it takes decades for coed scouting to be come so popular that the organization recoups the numbers of a given sex lost to the merger. The only countries where there aren't drastic losses, are where government implores multiple sex-segregated organizations to start working closely together. What does this mean for BSA's? Well, lacking a president who devotes some cabinet level officials to shuttle between it and GS/USA and other youth organizations to work together and provide more joint activities for the youth, market pressure will increasingly reduce BSA's and GS/USA's numbers as other organizations gain a little traction. Now, some European coed organizations have shown some phenomenal growth in the past few years. But, their tort law doesn't saddle organizations with the burden of the behavior of each of its members. Again, we have a situation where legislation makes the risks involved in overnight coed activities less onerous for the organization who promotes them. In other words, lacking legislation to buoy it, America is unlikely to have a single organization promoting minimally chaperoned coed overnight activities on a large scale anytime soon. Organizations are barely in the clear to do single-sex activities of that nature.

It is an ecological fallacy to dismiss predominately Islamic nations as choosing segregated programs simply because of some legislative mandate. They also choose such programs because they are very popular among youth and adults alike. So-called "Islamic" directives are popular with the prevailing culture -- which partly explains why the Islamic conquest has been successful in such places. No leaders in such a situation would push for coed after school programs. There would be a backlash from Muslims and non-Muslims alike. We also would do well to recognize that the inspiration of the co-ed scouting movements comes from Karl Gustav, King of Sweden. His mandate drove Swedish troops to be majority coed. He basically made an edict prohibiting segregated units. The BSA seems to be "late to the party" simply because there was neither legislative pressure nor groundswell of girls desiring this program specifically. Coed troops remain unpopular, according to my random sample of every 11 year old who I've consulted. By age 14 they kinda-sorta become okay with the concept again -- but it's the rare bunch who actually pull themselves together as a crew who attracts as many young women as men. Now, as kids are brought up in coed packs, that may change. But, IMHO, it would take a forceful legislative mandate before coed troops would be the standard across the nation. Otherwise, given the diversity of this melting pot, the popularity of organizations tailored on one sex or the other will continue.

My standing projection is that scouting in the US will not be brokered by not one, but a federation of independent scouting organizations. Rather than seeing the end of jamborees, we will see broader gatherings of American youth from multiple organizations. BSA may or may not be a player in all of this.

Sorry, I misspoke. Regardless of the technical detail, your deciding whether or not to put your name in as a claimant is not an easy thing to do, let alone describe the decision process and your concerns about how this pans out. I have no opinion on what you decide, and am in no position to sway your choice. Yes, since grade school (about the time that Mamma warned me that these things do happen and I must oppose them), I have had to deal with this from every angle. Fortunately, the scouting adults who I knew as a youth were defenders from - not perpetrators of - abuse. And, when my boys and daughter joined scouting, that tradition continued. Sadly, for some of my peers and youth I know now, I could not say that about other areas of life.

I suspect most of us who are prolific on this blog have known abused and accused abusers (exonerated, convicted, and untried). Some here have written articulately about their experience. I’d like to think that those testimonies written here better prepared me for handling situations of suspected abuse — better than BSA’s current YPT training. I’d say yours is the first here to articulate a decision to join a massive class action. I appreciate your weighing the pros and cons.

The sad thing is the belief that, through more nuanced wording, somehow the CO's will be a safe haven from all of this.

@LoriT, welcome to the forums. To find those “higher powers in scouting,” grab your SM, the E. Prep. MBC, and look in a mirror (virtually). Fact is we are all living out one big emergency preparedness drill. You have guidance from your state official. You’re not gonna loose on this one.

The English language really doesn’t care about anyone’s faith. “God” is not intrinsically Christian or Jewish. Early Christian missionaries merely heard the word and offered a very specific meaning to it. Setting a word in lower case and omitting the vowel does not make it anywhere near as holy as the Hebrew name that was kept sacred for millennia. But, maybe I missed a verse that says it does. I don’t think we’re doing something more or less disrespectful when grope for alternate terms, we’re just pushing the bounds of English ontology.

A more parallel comparison, TL USA’s fees if I read correctly are $325 for troop initial charter, $99 plus $20 per youth when rechartering. Plus $26 per member (adult or youth).

I wholeheartedly agree with @David CO, but feel like I can’t respond in detail because these ambulance chasers might build cases that hold someone’s estate liable. I have acquaintances who were brought up in other organizations and communities that were more permissive than BSA. I’m sure that they don’t want their communities gutted.

One of our district scouters wears them. Not sure if he’s had the same one all these years.

Well, since we have it on report that there is ZERO - not even a shred of - supremacy at play, it must be tongue-in-cheek. That cafe that I mentioned is in a section of town well worth visiting, but one some of my scouts’ parents would never allow their boys to visit. As far as I can tell, the most extreme of these boys are not overt aspiring Klansmen, like some of my high school classmates were. But they would cringe if they are offered an opportunity to read Dr. King’s speech on January 18th. I honestly don’t care about anybody’s acronym or catch phrase. I just want the boys in my community to be brave enough to walk a few miles into a predominantly non-white neighborhood and have a decent bowl of gumbo. I want them to be mentally fit enough to learn whatever skill they desire from caring adults of any ethnic origin. And, I wouldn’t be bothered if they were kind enough to uplift someone of a race or creed other than theirs in the process. So, I’m not fretting the details. If it looks like this MB will do that, I’ll get behind it. If it wrinkles, there’s so much more to scouting than earning Eagle.

Is there a reason for resurrecting this particular thread on the subject?

Not coming back? I can tell my little supremacists that they don’t have to earn the badge, stop chasing bling, and look at the trail map and plan our next hike ... preferably to a cafe I know that serves the best gumbo in town.

Definitely regional. Like most things with advancement, some councils set a particular tone, and eventually it was echoed nation-wide, until it was codified. (Which directly violates my Rule #1: Don't ask for a rule. You'll live to regret it.) I personally don't see the need for a special designation. There aren't going to be a lot of adults who do go all the way to Eagle, which is already a "silver" award. They just get to be called Eagle Scouts like the rest of us. But, more to the point, we would strongly encourage everyone to be 1st Class Scouts. The patch would synchronize with the concept. Most every adult would make an effort to at least nail that. And yes, it's a shame BSA has oversold Eagle almost to the exclusion of this "middle" rank. One side effect: there might be fewer youth who make Eagle because, lacking a deadline, the natural procrastinators will keep doing what they do. However, I think youth who see new adults (their moms and dads, even) struggling to master 1st Class skills will be inspired. My experience is with renewing BSA Guard, it just gets harder to knock out those sprints every three years, and one particular year I came back defeated a couple of days in a row. That third day, the few scouts from my troop in the aquatics area cheered me on when I finally nailed it.