Quixote

To answer your question, NO, and it is not now, never has been and never will be. While there may be a majority of it's members who are christian or jewish or budist, Scouting allows for all faiths - that's one of the great things about how it fits in with the american system. Freedom of religion (vs. freedom from religion).

YIS

Quixote

YES -

Tj's comment of "it represents man's evolving attempt to articulate a religion." indicates that it is nothing more than a best seller.

While it may be a best seller, it is in FACT the Word of God.

I am amazed at how many Christians there are who really aren't.

i think i'd ask to see the "national" policy in writing.

Weekender - i use the same stuff, except the way i use it is when my wife comes home with new pants for the boys that need to be hemmed, I hem the cuff, but instead of cutting off material, i use the tape to hold up the excess material inside the pant leg so next year when the pants are too short, they can be let down, then maybe again in year 3. I've got about 3-4 inches left in his scout pants - hoping not to have to buy another pair.

won't hold up for a long time by itself usually in a hem, but beats the alternative.

Thanks Ed -

I hadn't thought of that. Makes you wonder how many rape cases were handled on the sly within the church as well though. Very sad.

Quixote

OGE & Ed,

I understand and agree that the problem is with pedophiles in the preisthood, but isn't it also as obvious that the vast majority (at least of the reported cases) are instances involving boys as opposed to boys and girls?

I could be wrong, but just based on what i've read in the papers about the various cases across the country, while the articles may say young people, they more often than not indicated that those young people in most instances were boys, not girls.

Is my perception incorrect?

Quixote

Thanks Ed. I probably should have seen the answers, but the trees kept getting in the way of the forest.

YIS

Quixote

OGE - are you just outside Allentown?

Ed,

Since your troop seems to use the integrated approach to patrol makeup (i.e. mixed ages and abilities) i thought i'd ask you for your input into an issue that came up last night and some questions i have.

1.Troop JLT Campout on the calander for this weekend - has been there since I joined the troop in early March. ( i think it's been there all year)

2.Scout responsible for putting this campout together absent from the meeting last night due to school play conflict

3.Only 5 kids were able to go (three new scouts, one Life and one 1st Class).

4. 1st campsite selected we got bounced from last month, alternate bounced us two weeks ago, and we got a third lined up and confirmed. - we rescheduled for next weekend.

So many questions.....

A. How do we (adult leaders) make sure that the campouts happen if the Patrol Leader in charge of getting everything done falls through?

B. What do the new kids that could go this weekend do if they can't go next weekend when the thing is rescheduled?

C. Is "managing an effective meeting" course given to PL's, SPL's, etc. at JLTC as a standard course?

D.Short of the leaders taking over a campout at the last minute, how can parents ensure that the kids get to go camping.

Thanks

YIS

Quixote(This message has been edited by Quixote)

Bear,

Personally ask the SM to attend the next roundtable with you (you could do some prep work with the RT staff before hand to facilitate things).

See if the RT Commissioner will personally extend and invitation to RT.

Suggest a new policy of ALL members (including you) be retrained every X years. A good point to make is that they recently redid all the training (BW can help more with this though).

Volunteer to take on some of the stuff that he isn't doing.

$.02

YIS

Quixote

OGE - Congrats to your son.

Now to work on those palms...

YIS

Quixote

I know exactly where you are coming from WBE - I had to stop by our council store week before last because some things were bugging me about how we do things in the troop and rather than make a nuicance of myself, i decided to RTFM. I've read it through twice now and on my third go-round. Came in real handy at the Troop meeting last night when the boys were arguing that they couldn't have two JLT's two months in a row (you know they couldn't find that reference in their handbook and i couldn't find it in mine either!?!?)

Two more weeks and i'll get real training.

YIS

Quixote

On Line training can be very effective. Of course, some topics lend themselves better to one format than others, but at a minimum, the fast start videos could be redone with an on-line version. Also, some quizes could be incorporated to get immediate feedback on the effectiveness of the training.

Of course some things could never be done online as well, but for those areas that could, it could save time, money and increase the number of trained volunteers.

YIS

Quixote

NJ - i agree, the BSA policy did not prevent this, but it didn't allow it either.

From the same perspective, you could argue that a litmus test to exclude all gays (avowed or not) WOULD have prevented this.

WE - i think you got NJ mixed up with Merlyn - if i'm not mistaken, NJ is Jewish as Merlyn is the atheist.

NJ - as far as proselytizing, Jesus calls on his followers to do just that. As far as whether this is the correct forum for such witnessing, I maintain that it is. Duty to God and Reverence are both cornerstones to Scouting.

It's interesting to note the change in the Jewish religon regarding their proselytizing (neat word by the way).

I respect your right to believe however you choose - that's where Freedom OF Religion in America comes in I believe.

lV - I also agree - my scouting career is an example of that from the other extreme - didn't want to stay in scouts beyond 1st class because there was a local Explorer (mid 70's) post that was co-ed and did nothing but backpacking, whitewater canoeing, climbing, etc..

While there were some of my friends that stayed in Scouts (most actually), I most fondly remember my scouting years as those spent doing HA activities in the Post (and being on Indian George's dance team when I was in scouts).

A couple of ways we have used:

1. At the fall scout roundup, have the kids leave the room to go have fun while the adults stay behind and find out about the program. Split the parents up into what would be dens at each table - they're not allowed to leave the table until they have worked out the den leadership structure. It works, but can cause some problems.

2. Explain the situation to a parent and ask them to do ONE small thing for the pack or den - then ask them to do TWO, etc. When they finally realize that an hour a week isn't so much, ask them face to face to become a leader because you need their help.

I believe that almost all parents will consent to being an assistant whatever, it's the lead job that the parents shy away from. case in point is my son and the cubmasters' son have graduated to scouts this year and we're both moving up to be asst. scoutmasters in the troop. The pack has known this since the start of the year and nobody has come forward to be the new cubmaster although three people have agreed to be asst.

YIS

Quixote

On a lighter note regarding the uniforms... my son, who while a webelo hated to wear his uniform, now wears his scout uniform without complaint (because ALL the boys do and the BOYS make it a point to remind each other).

I sit here amazed, having realized that i didn't have to tell him to tuck in his shirt last night or to put on his neckercheif. This scouting stuff is truly amazing.

YIS

Quixote

Ed,

Please send me a copy

Quixote@aggies.com

Rooster - he has provided that - basically, it's whatever the "group" decides is moral is moral otherwise it is immoral - do i have that right NJ?

It is indeed dificult to define morals in a vacuum without referrencing either society's "accepted" behaviors or religion, which i believe has historically framed any society's "morals".

I do believe the morals of America has changed and is even now changing, some would say it's a downhill slide to immorality and "relative moralism" as R7 puts is. Others would say it's changing to be less discriminatory, more accepting, open, etc. It's a question of vantage point for "them" as well as "us".

My problem is that while I subscribe to the idea of certain absolute morals, i can't convince you that they are better than yours without a brain transfusion - your morals were shaped by your parents and the society you grew up in, and so were mine.

When i was a kid, the N word was regularily used in my family and I thought nothing of it as that's how I was raised. As i grew up and gained experience, i realized what a harmful word it could be even though I may not have INTENDED it to be harmful. Does this mean that using that word however innocently was morally correct because it was accepted in my family and society? I would think that it was as wrong then as it is now, but without subscribing to some form of absolutes, i don't see how you can say that.

It's all so confusing sometimes....

YIS

Quixote

Mommascout,

Do they provide the necessary personnel to satisfy the safety afloat requirements or does the troop have to furnish that?

An interesting point...

On the way home from Webelos Woods this weekend, my new scout was all aglow about the things he did that his troop guide signed off in his handbook and how good it was that he had earned his totin chip...."that's why i love camping"

30 minutes later after having carried his backpack into the living room, he lay down on the couch and closed his eyes, moaning that he wanted to go to bed and sleep "that's why i hate camping"

Two statements within 30 minutes (you can replace the camping with anything else that is challenging in my opinion). BTW, 30 minutes later, after a shower, he was looking at his handbook again and had swung back to the right side - "that's why i love camping"

Our son wanted to quit football last year - we said sure as long as he paid up back the $120 in dues and told his coach face to face that he was quitting because he didn't like to play football - he never quit.

He wanted to quit cub scouts last year as well - i think he was bored with the program because he had completed most everything - we told him he could quit at the end of the year (of course, now he has bridged over and is an excited first year scout).

He wanted to quit wrestling 2 weeks into the program last year - after winning all his matches and the gold medal in the county wide tournament, he wants to wrestle next year -

I'm very prepared for him to come home next year and complain that he doesn't have time to do (fill in the blank - but it's never nintendo or play station:))He will be given the option of paying any money back out of his allowance and standing face to face with his Coach/ Scout Master / Teacher / whoever and telling them the REAL reason he is quitting. I am confident that HE is making the right decision not to quit.

YIS

Quixote

OGE or Mommascout - do you have a url for white water rafting scout weekend?

NJ - thanks for the comments, and yes the cigarette smoking was hypothetical (at least for now ).

I aggree with your comments - the only reason i ask is that i was curious about the legal standing of the internet related to free speach and how the impact of the Dale decision relates to any other issue someone might take with BSA policy.

I've only been on this site for a month or so, and while it and some of the opinions cause my blood to boil at times, they also invite a certain amount of reflection which I think is usefull to the movement.

YIS

Quixote

based on the recent posts(specifically the undue influence topic), it occurs to me that one of the questions raised has to do with what/where is the appropriate forum to raise the issue if you are a scout leader.

NJ - you're the lawyer here - Are internet forums such as this one public or private speach - or does it matter?

What i'm getting at is let's say i'm for having cigarette smokers as leaders and there is a national ban on cigarette smokers as leaders.

If i dress up in my leader uniform and picket council, i am obviously an avowed cigarette smoker advocate and am making cigarette smoking a political issue and bringing attention to myself in the process - should my membership be revoked?

Same question, but i'm not in uniform.

I raise the issue at round table and debate my fellow scouters on the subject - is this public or private speach? bringing attention to myself or the "cause"?

I mail letters to national protesting the policy and asking that they re-address the issue - with appropriate copies to coucil, district and CO.

Based on current law, which of the above are allowed?