Quixote

Chippewa,

Where did i say a scout had to attend religous services in order to satisfy their Duty to God as outlined in the Oath and Reverent as outlined in the Law?

What i said was that if you are not focused on ALL 12 points of the Law and the ENTIRE Oath then you are shortchanging the boys IMHO.

I also said that i believe that religous services at camp or wherever should NOT be mandatory and that their duty to God and Reverence could be accomplished in other ways such as reading spiritual materials (bible, koran, etc.) or simply sitting by the lake and marveling at Gods creations.

I grant that it is a tricky area because of todays culture and the subject matter, but you're trying to teach character.

As for your question of which scout i would rather have in my Troop? BOTH - there's room for improvement in each. BTW, I like to think i was the 2nd scout in your equation when i was younger.

YIS

Quixote

The Oath and Law are fairly clear:

Duty to God

Reverent

If you do not have any kind of religous aspect to your program or if you just pay lip service to the Oath and Law then you are not delivering the program. Every scout has a Duty to God and is supposed to be Reverent towards God. I'm sure that you emphasize the other points of the Law - Every patrol Cleans their patrol box (some better than others obviously). We don't allow habitial liars to stay in scouts do we? If we encourage other points in the law and leave out Reverent we are not following the Law. Similarly if we do not show our Duty to God, we are not following the Oath.

You should be just as supportive and encouraging of these points as all the others - they are what scouting is about - camping and having fun in the outdoors is just the vehicle we use to instill these VALUES.

JMHO

Quixote

If the program is only to teach respect for others and for the environment, then they should be coed from a Title IX perspective. However, once you state that a goal is to produce Men that believe the Scout Oath and Law, then girls have no place in the program.

JMHO

Quixote

Sctmom,

From the cub scout perspective:

Our local pack uses a scout night in the fall - the week before this meeting, a flier is sent home to the parents as well as having a table set up at the back to school nights along with the league of women voters, and other civic organizations.

I think it still comes down to FUN for the boys - put on a good program and they will come. Of course, the first step in putting on a good program is having EVERY adult leader involved in the program trained for their position as well as attending as many roundtables as possible.

YIS

Quixote

tj said:

"However, wrong is wrong, regardless of what membership statistics tell us. The BSA policy to kick out kids and adults who avow that they are gay is harmful to Scouts. It tells a Scout who is gay (or is coming to grips with this fact) that he's the only type of human that BSA feels necessary to have a specific national expulsion for."

No tj you are incorrect - there are others who are not welcome to join scouts as boys - atheist boys are not welcome in scouting either - neither are liars, theives, or others whose actions or beliefs are not in line with the scout law and oath.

tj also said "It also tells the millions of boys in the program that it's OK to discriminate against gays" No it doesn't - it says that avowed homosexuals are not appropriate role models for scouts - nothing more.

YIS

Quixote

tj - just curious, but do you get some kind of job perfomance rating in your profession - is it remotely possible that even some of the things you are rated on in your job relate to numbers?

I understand your argument (at least this piece of it) but don't see anwhere in your posts where you suggest an alternative to how professional scouters are to be evaluated.

tj- i would say that by being honest with yourself about the state of your belief and faith and that you seek him that you are indeed satisfying the requirements of scouting as far as reverent and duty to God go.

I also pray that you have accepted Christ as your PERSONAL savior.

YIS

Quixote(This message has been edited by Quixote)

I see the black helicopters are out again

It seems to me that respect and tolerance for others' religions is a respected and valuable American trait. With that said, why is the LDS church singled out as being some sort of nefarious (sp) organization because they have certain religous beliefs (of which a number of religions have) that compel them to stand up for what they think is right and not cave in to current social winds?

JM - the LDS, like other organizations that partner with the BSA have every right and i would argue a responsibility to influence the BSA in what they feel is a positive direction. As for some secret agenda, i don't think it's a secret what the LDS' or the SBC, the UMC or other major U.S. religious organizations' stand on homosexuality is.

smaster101 - another way to handle it is while the other boys are in services that the few scouts who have a problem going to the camp services stay at camp in their tents or by the lake (basically wherever they can be quiet) either reading their bible/koran, etc. or meditating or whatever they do to satisfy their reverance and duty to God.

Ed - i agree, but from the other perspective, your boys have advanced to 1st class and they are supposedly hooked on scouting.

Like anything, the program should be implemented with the boys in mind - there are some kids that might never make 1st class before dropping out for other activities, and there are others that go all the way to Eagle and then drop out because there is no further mountain to climb (personally i think this is where a venture patrol or venturing crew should step in).

One thing that i'm curious about is everyone talking about the new scout patrol being the model - how do you enforce it? Do you enforce it - if it is a boy led troop and the PLC decides to split up the new scouts into existing patrols, how do you tell them that's not what they are "supposed" to do?

Ed,

Eastern PA (we're actually in NJ) The klondike is held at Jack Frost Mountain in the Poconos.

Maybe i'm interpreting it wrong, but the statement was first year scouters aren't allowed to go to klondike (in Pennsylvania at a ski resort). I understand the issue of newly crossed over campers, but these boys crossed over this month and will have been with the troop for almost a year when the next klondike occurs. Oh well - i've got to ask anyway just to satisfy myself.

Thanks for the replies

Yes, the new scouts are allowed to go to camp, but not JLTC in August.

I'll find out more in the near future i'm sure - like most, when he crossed over, so did i (at least after i finish my committment to the Pack for the rest of the year).

It is definately a troop imposed limitation - I can't say i understand the reason behind it because i don't know, nor have i asked, but was just wondering if this is common to others' expreiences.

On the hi-adventure front, i understand because of the dangers involved as well as additional maturity needed.

Ed,

the reason i ask is there is a requirement in my son's new troop that 1st year scouts can't go to klondike - maybe he meant you had to have your 1st class, but even so, i didn't understand the reason behind the restriciton. I'll have to ask him about that - in the meanwhile i was just wondering if there was some special requirement for klondike.

YIS

Quixote

Is there a BSA guideline on rank required to go to certain activities - i know you have to be 13 or 1st class for JLTC, but what about going to the klondike or webelos woods (on the scout side)? (maybe after i finish the SM training i'll know, but that's not for another month or so).

Thanks.

Are todays parents more concerned with being their childs' friend instead of being a parent first?

I would suggest that dad's not be the authorizing signature - that one of the other den leaders sign for the boy, but there's nothing against the den leader dad signing off.

My son even now can't remember how he got Citizen even though he went over it in his den, went to see a trial and meet with a municipal judge and met both the mayor and the governor as well as raising and lowering the flag at school for a week as well as other items I don't remember. Kid's don't readily remember hard work, they only remember the REALLY fun things like going to baseball games, etc.

Another aspect is to recognize those individuals who are working hard with immediate recognition - it sets an example for the other boys to follow as well as giving positive feedback. There's nothing wrong with a boy taking the initiative - as ScouterPaul points out, your job is really to help transition them from cubs to scouts.

The WDL or his/her assistant is supposed to sign off on requirements for webelos - the way our den did it was the parent would initial indicating they thought it was complete and the WDL would review it with the scout in question - if he didn't know what he should have known after completing the task, the parents' signatures were erased by the boy and he had to do it over again - assuming he really did his best before which was usually not the case.

TJ - thanks for clearing up exactly who are conservative christians - i hadn't realized that the Mormons had hijacked scouting to the degree you, NJ and NW point out.

As for implying that the SBC condones homosexuality in BSA by your reference to some churches who supposedly are SBC affiliated having gay clergy, i really don't think that fits in with the SBC statement on sexuality:

"We affirm God's plan for marriage and sexual intimacy one man, and one woman, for life. Homosexuality is not a "valid alternative lifestyle." The Bible condemns it as sin. It is not, however, unforgivable sin. The same redemption available to all sinners is available to homosexuals. They, too, may become new creations in Christ." from http://sbc.net/default.asp?url=bfam_2000.html

As for beleiving Scouting is a secular movement, i personally don't agree with that viewpoint. I think it is MOSTLY secular, but definately not entirely.

It is nice that we can agree to disagree however.

YIS

Quixote

NJ - provide evidence that something isn't happening? I would think that's even tough for a lawyer to do. That being said, I simply feel that one doesn't have to attack "christian conservatives" rather it could be argued that some drift away from a more liberal interpretation of rules, etc. has taken place over x number of years.

Political correctness used to be called courtesy. Implying that some concerted right wing conspiracy is at work crafting the policies of the BSA, leads me to think that someone is looking for black helicopters.

NW - please retract your statement regarding christian conservatives.

DD - just a question - sorry for butting in, but you keep referring to hair length and having a pierced ear as a behavior. I think this is the point of contention that everyone is having - some people don't see hair length or having an earring as a behavior.

Assuming your hair is cut short, can i say you are behaving well? And if you hair is long that you are not behaving well?

YIS

Quixote

It seems that the problem is easily solved by asking the SM where in the requirements provided by BSA does it say that a crew cut is required for Eagle. This doesn't have to be a confrontation unless the SM makes it one. As far as giving the SM a break, this isn't about the SM, it's about recognizing the work done by the Scout. Maybe it is another test (not one that i would do, but everyone's different) to see if your character is developed enough to stand up to an authoritative figure for what is right.

Just my $.02