Quixote

An interesting aside...

My 1st year scout last night was talking about merit badges required for eagle and i pointed out that he should go for swimming "too hard" he said - my response was "not for someone who can swim - which you can do". He is about 25 pounds overweight btw and has taken swimming lessons at the Y for the last 2 years and can just now swim with his face in the water.

Swimming is a life skill.

JCfraz, you posted

Yes, I have done the req. that says to say the pledge. I'm just trying to get past that without having to say the pledge, (THERE"S JUST GOTTA BE A WAY!)

You're saying that you recited the pledge upon joining, but won't recite it again? is that right?

I can understand that you might have received some enlightenment since joining that makes you believe that you can't say the pledge, but it sounds like sctmom has hit on the point - i.e. that you're looking for something to argue about.

Since you're claiming that it's a religious reason and you're Presbytirian and they (as a religion) don't have a problem with the pledge, it seems that your faith isn't in line with the religion you're espousing to belong to.

Is it your religion or your FAITH that gives you pause?

Is this a scout spirit issue with the SM?

Quixote

Our council is presently doing it's yearly Cub Scout Day Camp - my wife is volunteering (2nd year) again this year.

She requested that our older boy (1st year scout) be able to come (otherwise she couldn't volunteer) as well as our 4.5 year old who is in the "tag along" den. The camp director had no problem with accepting him, so my wife asked all the other new scouts in the troop (most of which were in the day camp program as cubs in previous years) if they would like to come as well and be den chiefs. My wife thought that since her new scout son was acceptable as a den chief that his buddies would be as well - WRONG.

The first indication of a problem was in May / June and eventually they worked out that the boy scout den chiefs that weren't kids of the staff would have to pay $50 to be den chiefs!!! Granted, they were there using the (free) facilities and taking up some of the (volunteer) staff time and using some of the (oriental trading company) crafts, but for the life of me i couldn't understand why a boy scout who is volunteering his time to be a den chief would have to pay...was told it was an insurance thing (our district must be run by an insurance salesman:)) quote from council "den chiefs must be 1st class or 14 years old"

So now is the week of camp and all of a sudden the den chiefs who according to staff two months ago needed to be 1st class or 14 years old are "great" at working with the cubs and a "big help" in putting on the program.

In addition to learning a valuable lesson in volunteerism, the new scouts are getting time to work with some older scouts on some of the advancement stuff they missed out on at camp last week and are earning another merit badge! 3 eleven year old scouts who didn't meet the requirements are now an asset to the program, have learned numerous positive lessons and have a positive attitude about helping others and have asked about being full time den chiefs after camp!!!

There shouldn't be an age limit or rank limit, just a maturity check by the SM and a desire to help in the prospective den chief.

Quixote

While obesity can be disabling, it is not and should not (in my opinion) be a recognized disability. I believe that most overweight people (myself included) can lose the weight through diet and exercise.

Laura,

nobody is "holding back" or denying advancement because of someone's weight, if he does the requirements, he advances.

As for not learning to swim, I would hope you would reconsider your attitude concerning what is probably one of the most recognized life saving skills a scout has. Not liking water sports is not a reason not to learn this life saving skill.

Quixote

I agree that modern society had degraded the practice of good manners and ettiquettte. However, I'm not so sure it falls under the auspices of a merit badge instead of areas in the Scout Law.

For example,

A scout is courteous. Would cover opening doors for others, not talking with your mouth full of food, saying "excuse me", etc.

A scout is clean. Would cover being presentable at a social function - maybe even using those fingerbowls.

Etc.

I'm not saying that a merit badge couldn't work, but i'm not sure it essentially isn't in the Scout Law already.

As for which fork to use for what, i would think you could cover that in the cooking merit badge.

Differences in culture could be covered in the cit in world class.

Etc.

Is society so far down the line that the definition of courteous has to be a merit badge for scouting?

Quixote

Real example:

Thursday morning - walked into the dining hall at camp with the troop - All the older boys removed their caps upon entering - most of the new scouts in the troop didn't - just a reminder of "Hats off, guys" did the trick. nobody was emberassed and only one or two made the same mistake in the evening - by friday, everyone removed their caps upon entering the dining hall.

I'm guessing that Mon - Wed. they ate with their caps on. Most everybody else in the dining hall did not have their caps on either.

Quixote

Acco,

you state "In my other posts I have expressed a displeasure in hearing others display outwardly denominational prayer in a diverse group setting. That does not mean I am intolerant. When it occurs I tolerate it"

quite the contrary, you ridicule the person who posted it.

In my book, that is intolerance.

Peace

Quixote

jm, NJ, sm424 & Rooster - Thank you.

I believe that it is important that scouting teaches tolerance. I wouldn't have a problem with my troop being led in a jewish prayer, a muslim prayer, a christian prayer, a hindi prayer, etc. as jm, nj & r7 pointed out, this teaches tolerance through example.

Boys learn tolerance by exposure to others' values, faiths and cultures.

nj - have your boys gone to camp this year?

Acco,

your response proves that there is intollerance even in the scouting movement - what part of my faith or witnessing of it does you harm?

What part of my statment causes you to attack me?

my post was not meant to be presumptious, but it doesn't suprise me that you don't care about my faith. I probably doesn't surprise you that I do care about yours.

Quixote

The BOR would be to encourage him to work on some of the scoutcraft areas that he's missing to advance - it's not to advance him for advancements sake, but to encourage him to get even MORE out of his scouting experience.

Case in point - he won't be eligible for our Troop's Klondike unless he's 14 or 1C - so, if he would do a couple of more things on some of the campouts he could go on the Klondike and have even more FUN.

I didn't mention his entire background, but he has had some other behaviorial problems in the past - nothing big, but he is definately one of the less emotionally mature 13 year olds in the Troop.

I don't have a problem with the Troop policy not spelling out everything, some things should be left to the SPL and the PLC to work through - it's a good exercise for them.

The father couldn't believe that his son would do such a thing and the boy has denied doing it, but it's hard to believe him because he has lied about things in the past and there are two witnesses.

Thanks

Quixote

I am a Christian.

If asked to lead a prayer, I will lead a Christian prayer and will most certainly mention my personal savior, Christ Jesus. My faith requires that I acknowledge Him.

BSA does not require me to leave Jesus' name out of prayer, but rather teaches me to respect your right to pray to your god or whoever you want, however your faith dictates.

I have no problem with that so please don't begrudge me to say a prayer as my faith dictates.

YIS

Quixote

Mark 16:15

The consequence was the SPL gave him a written warning per Troop policy. His father is a committee member and was informed the very next day. The boy was not made to clean the latrine.

I was not present the day this occurred, but given the boy in question i would have counseled the SPL to have the boy clean the latrines.

Quixote

Sounds like he is really unconfortable around water - does he react the same around lakes or streams when the kids are fishing?

I would not change the requirements for this boy because of his fear of the water - this is a challenge he needs to overcome.

YIS

Quixote

Merlyn,

That was completely uncalled for - you may support the actions of the ACLU and view their championing of causes as being consistent, but that is from your viewpoint - others don't see it that way and to call someone a liar for giving their opinion is uncalled for.

Quixote

Thanks.

In case you're wondering how it was handled, the SPL gave him a written warning for defacing camp property - 3 such warnings and it goes to committee for possible suspension.

I have suggested that the CC convene a BOR for this boy as he has been in the troop for over a year and still isn't 2nd class despite going on all the outings.

YIS

Quixote

He knows the difference between right and wrong.

2 other scouts as witnesses (one new scout & one older)

He does have some problems, but none diagnosed as far as i know.

Tenderfoot scout, 12 - 13 years old in the troop for his second year.

Sign on the latrine says "please keep lids closed" for obvious reasons.

Tenderfoot scout proceeds to urinate on the lid and walls.

How would your troop leadership handle this?

BTW, true story from 1 week ago at camp.

Thanks

Quixote

No homesick scouters here - just kidsick parents...

Had a call on Wednesday before i went up to camp from a new mom...could i have him call her so she can make sure he's ok? - sure.

I waited until the boys were active in a project and mentioned to the boy that his mommy wanted him to call her...his response "ok" - he never called and his mom survived the week.

I couldn't wait to get to camp last week to see what a great time the boys were having - took climb on safely, safe swim defense, safety afloat and belay certification.

YIS

Quixote

My CC told me yesterday that the ASM's (of which i am one) can give SM conferences per the COR.

My reading of the SM handbook doesn't support this and our SM told me flat out that he's the only one who can give SMC's.

Which is it? I don't have a problem helping the SM on them, but i think he's the one who's supposed to do them as well.

Thanks.

Acco,

I have no problem with using nondenominational blessings and having nondenominational services - remember that most of the chartering organizations are religious institutions and that allowing time and facilities for religious services is part of the program. I believe it fosters understanding and tolerance for other religious views.

My problem stems from the attitude that any particular religion is abhorant or the practice of it is abhorant - this attitude unchecked could come across to the scouts and foster bigotry and hatred for other religios views. Maybe a more accepting attitude would work better.

As far as my particular faith goes, i would much rather be in the church of Philadelphia than in the chruch of Laodicea.

Peace

Quixote

Acco40,

you pointed out to Rooster I have a belief in Jesus but I abhor when Scouters invoke Jesus' name during grace because I believe it shows an ignorance to others at best and arrogance and disrespect to others at worst. Nondenominational "stuff" works just as well and reinforces the BSA policy (a scout is reverent). Just like admonishing someone to remove their hat for grace, it is in poor taste. Stick to your own beliefs and try to be considerate (should I use the terms COURTEOUS & KIND?)

You have a belief in Jesus but abhor scouters invoking His name? Are you serious? It seems to me that this attitude could use a little courteousness and kindness as well as respect for others' religious views - or is it just Christians that have to deny their faith?

Quixote

How often are you putting the OUT in scouting?

OGE,

WOW - seems like you guys are doing something right.

Where are you going to camp? Our boys are presently at Ockanickon - i'm heading back up there on Wednesday through the end of the week.

YIS

Quixote

As an aside, i remember going to camp with around 50 boys in our troop when i was a scout and we had a blast - but then i didn't have any responsibilities then either beyond PL.

Mom, i know exactly how you feel, we sent our oldest to camp yesterday (my wife and the 4 year old stayed home).

I helped the boys get settled in with swim checks, campsite, blue cards, etc. It was 9:30 before i finally left to come back home - i know that 1 hour of that was spent going to the opening campfire just to see the looks on the new scouts' faces when they were finally given a chance to relax with their friends for a while.

All day today i've been thinking about his schedule and what he's doing and how much fun he's having. I'll be going up on Wednesday afternoon and staying till Saturday morning so i'll get a chance to at least ensure he's alive .

Brought back lots of good memories.

They're not as fragile as we think.

YIS

Quixote

Thanks Rooster.