Quixote

Explorer level training (both as a youth and as an adult advisor) in late 70's / early 80's

Out of scouting until four years ago.

In that 4 years, position specific training for Cub Scout Den Leader, Cubmaster and Scoutmaster - anticipate continuting for the forseeable future. Getting Climb On Safety training this week at camp.

YIS

Quixote

Bubba,

I must have mistaken you with another poster then. My apologies.

As for your disagreement with BW, I'm not trying to get in the argument, rather to point out that if it is a private dasagreement, to please do it in private, not on a public board.

On a more positive front, i spent all day yesterday at camp getting the boys settled in - brought back many fond memories.

YIS

Quixote

NJ - what summer camp do they go to? I only ask because i saw a NNJC shoulder patch at the flag ceremonyat Ockanickon last night and thought of NJCubScouter immediately.

Debate is healthy - at least in a free society.

limiting the participation in a debate however is like stacking the deck.

Bubba, i've read most of your posts and appreciate and respect your opinion, but your feud with Bob White is more in line with an argument and not a debate. Whether you or any of the other pro homosexuals in scouting debaters like it or not, the board is open to everyone within the framework that Scouterterry set up. Personal attacks are outside those boundaries i believe.

I would love this debate to stop and everyone to go back to scouting, but as you have pointed out, this argument is about compromising ones values - something that neither side is willing to (nor should) do without fighting for those values. If you aren't willing to stand up for your values, your values aren't valuable are they?

YIS

Quixote

TJ,

Quite the contrary TJ, it is entirely unfair to ask the majority to sacrifice its morals and values for a minority that advocates allowing (in some states) avowed criminals to be members.

The BSA has decided (with input from their volunteers) that the issue is one of morals - "Homosexuals are not appropriate role models".

You ask

In fact, I view the question being debated right now as "Can you accept that people with slightly different moral standards than your own can participate in Scouting without effecting you?" I can answer that question with a resounding yes. Can you?

I can accept people with slightly different values, but i believe that morals are absolute and not relative.

don't care what your moral standards are, and I wouldn't dream of asking you to change them. I just don't want you to hold our (yours and mine) organization (BSA) up to a standard that significant portions of its chartering partners, members and parents disagree with.

Again, i argue that Morals are fixed, it is our values that are relative. I'm sorry we can't agree on the question either.

Quixote(This message has been edited by Quixote)

Bubba,

I think for a lot of people the question essentially boils down to:

"Are you willing to compromise your values or morals?"

I know for me, the answer is no.

littlebillie,

I would instruct my kids that we believe in God, not some other religious deity. They can say "under God" if they want, or not say it at all, depending on how they feel.

I understand your point, but i also have to wonder where you were on the subject before the ruling - can't recall a single thread on the subject.

As a practical matter on how it relates to scouts, i expect all the scouts in our troop to say the pledge unless their specific religious beliefs require them not to say it which is fine.

my final comments on the matter.

Quixote

you are not allowed to change the requirements for rank advancement.

advancement is one of the 8 methods and shouldn't be tampered with at the local level.

Littlebillie,

I prefer the pledge just as it currently is. I would bet that most Americans (both of concience and without as you so nicely put it) prefer the current pledge as well since the 9th circuit opinion has drawn so much fire from even the most liberal in the press and the House and Senate.

My point is that if it is unconstitutional to have "under God" in the pledge then it should be equally unconstitutional to have "under heaven" as heaven is a western idea of the afterlife inconsistent with some non-monotheistic religions as well as atheists who i'm sure didn't like the pledge for the last 40 odd years.

In the grand scheme of things, i guess i'm in favor of not giving up my freedom OF religion to those who prefer freedom FROM religion.

littlebillie,

If called upon to take such a pledge i would refuse just as everyone has the right NOT to day the current pledge.

As for your suggestion of "under heaven" i would just as soon we go back and just remove the "under God" as the intent is still there in your version.

Wouldn't want to go down that slippery slope of freedom OF religion.

If you are at a baseball game this summer be sure and don't say the Star Spangeled Banner's fifth verse

"O, thus be it ever when freemen shall stand,

Between their lov'd homes and the war's desolation;

Blest with vict'ry and peace, may the heav'n-rescued land

Praise the Pow'r that hath made and preserv'd us as a nation!

Then conquer we must, when our cause is just,

And this be our motto: "In God is our trust"

And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave

O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!"

Wouldn't want to impose a religion on you.

Quixote

I find it very interesting to see where everyone lines up on this subject - for the most part along the same lines as the homosexuals in scouting debate.

Which brings to mind the same arguments that the "pro homosexuals in scouting" debaters like to argue that you can't say it's a slippery moral slope, while at the same time invoking the slippery slope argument for their argument with wicca / allah / etc. in the pledge.

then sctmom mentions something about the intent of the founding fathers and argues that we should seek out their intent except where it relates to exclusionary practices which were clearly their intent.

very interesting reading.

On a pure secular basis, i understand the argument presented about "under God" being unconstitutional but on a practical basis i reject it as not being on the slippery slope quite yet.

Yours "under God" in Scouting

Quixote(This message has been edited by Quixote)

My knot - i'm taking it home with me - i need another one for my shirt...ok, so it's not that kind of knot.

I assume you're trying to get us to stop beating Secretariat up? Sounds good to me, maybe we can focus our energies on working with the boys instead of debating whether homosexual acts are related to bestiality and other perversions and whether morality doesn't mean anything unless it's in a vacuum.

Only problem is that issues such as these are what this particular forum is designed for - i think - a place to discuss "Issues & Politics" which is what this debate is.

I think everyone's thoughts on the subject have been posted on other threads.

Hey, kinda like how that monkey fist knot looks on my shirt (except it's too heavy) - you can have it back now, thanks.

YIS

Quixote

Sctmom - put the marshmallow on a stick and hold over the power supply and in some cases over the keyboard as they tend to heat up at times - especially in this forum.

YIS

Quixote

To put this topic back on track...

I believe women should be in the BSA, but not as Scoutmasters or Assistant Scoutmasters unless they are qualified by training to do so...course i believe men should not be scoutmasters or asm unless trained as well...

Quixote

Bubba,

I would suggest that loving your neighbor is not the same as holding them and their actions up as role models for our youth.

I love my kids, but sometimes do not approve of their behavior.

YIS

Quixote

Bubba,

I don't see the leap from national setting equal policies to local contol of the program that it seems that you are making. While i agree that this balanced approach is well and good, just don't throw the baby out with the water though. (no, can't have that rule because we already have two duty to self rules and we can't unbalance the equation...) It has been my experience that the one area (at least in my local district and council) that gets shortchanged because of people wanting to stay PC is Duty to God (i've been guilty of that myself).

National has a duty set broad standards - membership, advancement, etc.. These standards should be as broad as possible to allow for all the flavors that exist in scouting. These standards must be in keeping with traditional values and morals.

Local units must operate within these broad standards and not go outside them. It really becomes that simple.

YIS

Quixote

Bubba,

As far as BSA is concerned, i agree that for the most part it should be balanced which is most likely carried out at the local level anyway.

Personally, I put it in the order of God, Family, Country - self comes after that.

Bubba,

As for your statements regarding professional scouters, I'll only say that i'm not quite as pessimistic concerning their motives as you are (i don't begrudge you your opinion since it sounds like you have first hand experience, but i choose to hold out hope for their motives).

As far as comparing the Word of God and the policies of BSA national? In no way was i relating the two together to imply that they are the same. I was trying to find out where you're coming from inferring that national has made policies that are not balanced between Duty to God, Country and Self. Although you will notice which one comes first!

R7 - Amen

sctmom writes "God saved Lot even though he was willing to throw his virgin daughter out to the men of Sodom. Is that moral"

Look at it in context sctmom - he was responsible for the safety of his guests which were angels of the Lord. If he allowed these depraved men to take them then he would have been as guilty as them. Instead he offered of himself (his family) to protect the messengers of God. A moral act.

please see John 15.13

Sctmom,

Thanks for the info on Jefferson's letter - i was aware that the phrase "seperation of church and state" came from one of his letters.

My point is that it is most definately NOT in the constitution.

"On Christ the solid Rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand"

TJ says I do think that it is man's evolving interpretation of God's word

Given this TJ and the warning of John in the book of revelation about adding to or taking away from the Word of God, how do you reconcile this? Clearly the meaning is don't change the inherent Truth and message in the bible, but evolving implies changing to me.

Littlebillie,

I would argue that the 10 plagues visited upon Egypt was a result of the Pharoh's hardened heart and refusal to obay the Word of God.

Bubbabear,

I don't see National making policy that makes one area more important than the other here. Are you suggesting some kind of religious decree has been handed out?

I believe an honest reading of Genesis will reveal that homosexuality was just ONE of the sins of Sodom. The passage deals with Sodomites' desire for pleasures of the flesh in all forms - homosexual as well as heterosexual.

Homosexuality might not be one of the Top 10 God gave to Moses on the tablets, but it is no doubt an unclean act as well as a sin of the flesh.

More wood for the fire...

Quixote

Gee, i don't see the words "seperation of church and state", but rather that the government won't create a "church of america" kind of like the church of england, but i do see that it's not supposed to prohibit the free exercise of religion (of which i believe prayer in schools and saying the pledge and singing God Bless America fall) - don't see anything in that about freedom from religion except for a state run religion.

Seems like the lawyers are running amok again. (except for our NJ of course)

OGE, i was going to use that same example, but with the reference that the federal constitution and laws outweigh the state ones, not the other way around.

Same holds true in business - if i own a mcdonalds franchise and don't like the arches, i can't just take them down and call myself burger king. (although i could if i bought a happy meal with one of those hats my kids get)

YIS

Quixote

Ed,

Good point, i don't think it exists, but...

Hey NJ, as our resident ambulance chaser what's the basis of the "seperation of church and state".

I'd always thought we had freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion - big difference in my mind.

R7 - Thanks.

The 9th Circuit is the most liberal and the most overturned appeals court in the country

Gee, I wonder why?

One of the most ludicrous rulings in a while, but isn't too much farther than my God given right to pray wherever I want, including public school.

From this website http://www.users.fast.net/~shenning/quotes.html

Red Skelton - The Pledge of Allegiance

From the Red Skelton Hour, January 14, 1969

"Getting back to school, I remember a teacher that I had. Now I only went, I went through the seventh grade. I left home when I was 10 years old because I was hungry. (laughter) And .. this is true. I worked in the summer and went to school in the winter. But, I had this one teacher, he was the principal of the Harrison school, in Vincennes, Indiana. To me, this was the greatest teacher, a real sage of..of my time, anyhow.

He had such wisdom. We were all reciting the Pledge of Allegiance one day, and he walked over. This little old teacher ... Mr. Lasswell was his name. He said:

"I've been listening to you boys and girls recite the Pledge of Allegiance all semester and it seems as though it is becoming monotonous to you. If I may, may I recite it and try to explain to you the meaning of each word?

I me, an individual, a committee of one.

Pledge dedicate all of my worldly goods to give without self-pity.

Allegiance my love and my devotion.

To the Flag our standard, Old Glory, a symbol of freedom. Wherever she waves, there's respect because your loyalty has given her a dignity that shouts freedom is everybody's job.

of the United that means that we have all come together.

States individual communities that have united into 48 great states. 48 individual communities with pride and dignity and purpose, all divided with imaginary boundaries, yet united to a common purpose, and that's love for country.

of America and to the Republic Republic ... a state in which sovereign power is invested in representatives chosen by the people to govern. And government is the people and it's from the people to the leaders, not from the leaders to the people.

For Which It Stands One Nation One Nation ... meaning, so blessed by God.

Indivisible incapable of being divided.

With Liberty which is freedom, the right of power to live one's own life, without threats, fear, or some sort of retaliation.

And Justice the principle or qualities of dealing fairly with others.

For All For all ... which means, boys and girls, it's as much your country as it is mine.

And now boys and girls let me hear you recite, the "Pledge of Allegiance."

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Since I was a small boy, two states have been added to our country, and two words have been added to the Pledge of Allegiance - "under God." Wouldn't it be a pity if someone said, "That is a prayer," and that would be eliminated from schools, too?"