Quixote

TJ,

The argument is that you can't have a NATIONAL organization if the membership standards are set in each local area. What you are proposing is a franchise without national membership standards which isn't going to happen.

What you are proposing on the surface sounds simple, but it is a slipery slope whether you recognize it or not. Implementing such a change would split the BSA even more than we are split on this board and would highlight the differences while at the same time the BSA would be relinquishing their moral ground - that's not likely to happen either.

OGE - i think you've spotted another point we can probably all agree on

Dunk-Head refers to the practice of actually being immersed at baptism (which isn't as an infant) - one of the things that sets us Baptists apart from the rest of you heathens.

TJ,

I don't agree that the basis of your conspisary theory (and it sounded like one months ago and still sounds that way) are based on FACTS, but statistics that can be INTERPRETED in a number of ways. One such way is that the LDS may find that their average church is smaller and pulls a smaller number of boys that non-LDS churches therefore they have more units with smaller membership. Or they may find that smaller troops allows the Scouting program to work better with their church for other reasons. Just because the LDS is vocal about their beliefs doesn't mean that they are enforcing their views on you - scouting is a voluntary organization - you have just as much right to voice your opinions (and do - I like that), but it's sour grapes when your side of the table doesn't win the decision.

National may have bent to LDS pressure as you assert, but there's nothing heinous about having one of your largest chartering organizations agreeing with you or vice verce. The LDS isn't forcing you to do anything - it's a free country - you are free to spend your time in scouting or other worthwhile pursuits.

Mike - my comments to TJ were of a sarcastic nature - even though i am a "dunk-head"

TJ - i appreciate your passion and respect your position (i don't agree with it, but that's ok).

YIS

Quixote

TJ,

I'm suprised that you haven't linked the LDS with Osama bin Laden and the Taliban's disdain for women yet. Or maybe you'll call the Catholic church homophobic - better yet, let's refer to the Baptists as dunk-heads. Maybe if you attack other religions you'll feel even better about YOUR so called moral position on homosexual acts.

I find it more than slightly hypocritical of scouters to be respectful of their brand of religion or non-religion as the case may be, and then rip the LDS for tenets of their religion - you either respect others or you dont.

I'm not LDS, but your and NJ's conspiracy theory regarding the LDS is absurd and reeks of conspiracy theories that are usually reserved for the far right wing, not the far left wing.

Quixote

The way it works - the accounting behind it or Enron accounting 101...

Several Scenarios:

#1

Local UW does not donate to BSA any longer.

I direct $10 to go to BSA via UW

UW directs around $7 to the BSA for my contribution.

#2

Local UW still donates to BSA - $100K per year.

I direct $10 to go to BSA via UW

UW drects $100k per year to BSA (my now $7 is part of this, but they take 7 other dollars and redistribute to other programs per the budget). If total directed giving is in excess of $100k per year for the BSA, my additional $7 goes to BSA, if not, it is moved to other programs.

For MOST states, I would doubt that BSA is funded any more money via your directed giving because not everyone does it that way - most employees donate without restrictions, therefore you can move from the General Fund to the other funds without restrictions.

This is generally the way most United Way finance types split the dollars, but as the UW is a local organization, just like your local council, it varies.

HTH & YIS

Quixote

p.s. When i found this out in the mid 80's i stopped all UW contributions from my check and now give directly to the charity of my choice which has the added benefit of funding them at a greater % of the $ after admin costs.

NJ - see any more black helicopters in your neighborhood lately?

It is a misinterpretation of the principles of Scouting, by people who wish to impose their religious beliefs on everybody else.

Rooster - stick to your guns on this - i happen to agree with you regarding religion as well. My faith requires me to witness to others and to acknowledge no other gods; it also requires me to believe that there is ONE way to the Father and that is through the Son. There is one truth, not many. It does not require me to respect other religions, neither does being an american - it DOES require me to respect your choice of how you want to worship.

YIS

Quixote

btw, Mickey Mouse, Pooh and Tigger all say hello to everyone...just back from the happiest place on earth.

NJ - Thanks. I can see more of where you're coming from on this and I respect your opinion (don't always agree with it, but nobody's perfect).

YIS

Quixote

NJ, you say Personally I would rather not know or hear about the religious beliefs of others

I'm just a little surprised to read this statement. I would have thought that you would be a little more liberal on this point.

On a side note, I think most Christian faiths as well as Islam teach that spreading the Word of God is a fundamental charge given to believers. Does the Jewish faith not have this charge?

I can understand not wanting other religous views imposed on you - i wouldn't want it either.

Quixote

littlebillie,

welcome to the board.

II assume Roosters intent was to point out that their special need would be solved by belief in God, not in having some atheist camping club for boys.

As far as being practical, I would argue that belief in God is very practical as well as compassionate.

NJ says You surprise me, BobWhite, by twisting my words and meaning

- there's a lawyer joke there somewhere.

Thanks - i had misread the requirement.

Sounds like the Supply Division missed something if the webelos scouts are supposed to wear a tan shirt, green pants and a blue belt!!! No wonder none of my webelos last year wanted to switch to the brown shirts

Salra,

I too hope you find another Troop for your son to join.

Also, thanks for sharing this subject with us - on the way to my son's troop meeting last night i mentioned that he might hear some foul language at camp and possibly other inappropriate discussions and if anything felt wrong to him to remember that he can always walk away from the group or if he is feeling brave to bring it to the kids' attention that it is inappropriate language/discussion for scouts.

Thanks & Good Luck

Quixote

Bob White,

Family Life Merit Badge

Requirement #6

Do the following:

A. Discuss with your merit badge counselor how to plan and carry out a family council.

B. After this discussion, plan and carry out a family council to include the following subjects:

1.How to avoid the use of drugs and drug abuse

2.Understand the growing-up process, how the body changes, and making responsible decisions dealing with sex

3.Personal and family finances

Given requirement 6b2, how does the merit badge counselor ensure that the scout "understands" things without actually discussing or in some other way communicating with the scout?

I readily agree that scouting is not about sex ed. but how does this fit in with your statement any leader approached by a scout with a question of a sexual nature be directed to a parent, guardian or religious leader?

sctmom, i believe i did write depending on the severity and the attitude of the scout - while i have every desire to help provide scouting to every boy that wants to be in scouts, i firmly believe that drugs and alcohol have absolutely no place in scouting.

Assuming the boy in question realized what he did was wrong and was genuinly remorseful, 60 days doesn't sound too bad, but if the attitude is "hey, it's only pot", my recommendation would be complete expulsion from any troop i am an adult leader in.

YIS

Quixote

(This message has been edited by Quixote)

I ask because like BW, i had exposure to this kind of thing except from the other side of the fence. One of the scouts in my Explorer post in the 70's had pot on a campout and the adult leaders did nothing - talk about being confused as to what is the right thing to do! Then again, the same adult leader was a regular violator of todays GTSS and YPP.

I know my opinion of the leader, who I previously admired, went way downhill after this event. Within the year, he was out of the Post, the guy that brought the pot on the campout and his clique within the post were gone (of their own accord) and new advisors stepped in to make the environment better in all ways. My fellow scouts proposed and passed a bylaw of the post requiring immediate expulsion for posession of drugs or alcohol on a scout activity with a report to be filed with the police dept. after the campout. We never had to use the new policy.

Coming from this background, I believe i would take the same position that Ed takes with the possibility depending on the severity and the attitude of the scout to recommending to the committee that the scout be expelled from the Troop.

After reading Bob White's story concerning the boy with pot on a campout, i'm curious as to at what level do you call the authorities (legal vs. DE / Scout exec) regarding an illegal act taking place on a troop campout.

please, no GTSS quotes.

Quixote

I don't understand how this is any different from the old snipe hunt except that the adults were involved. New kids were still initiated into a troop by playing a prank on them - ok, you played the prank on all the kids.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think you hazed them, i just don't see the difference between your joke and singing scouts with the possible exception that the scouts being asked to sing are being taught something where yours are just being made fun of.

Bring it up to committee, the COR and I would also bring it up officially to the DE.

sctmom says A few months ago after my son's first troop campout, there was the normal collection of items at the next troop meeting that had ended up at the wrong homes. The owners had to come forward and get them. Nothing else was said or done, those kids were embarrassed enough to walk up in front of the troop to get their coat (big thing to lose) or other item.

I can't believe your troop made the owners come up in front of the rest of the troop and - your words - embarrassed them in such a humiliating way - how is this not hazing and singing a song is? Just because they weren't up there for long doesn't change the fact that they had to go up in front of a group.

I'm sorry if i sound flippant about it, but a boy singing in front of his friends being called hazing is borderline ridiculous.

I have read the GTSS at the bsa website and in the posts above, and IN MY JUDGEMENT it doesn't count as hazing. Are there better ways to teach responsibility and accountability? probably, but I'm sure even in Bob White's troop there are some traditions and PLC rules other troops wouldn't agree with - That's what is so great about Scouting - it has a slightly different taste in each Troop.

YIS

Quixote

Bob, Where in the GTSS does it say BSA stands for Bubbleboy Scouts of America?

While i wouldn't want to play a game of scout jeopardy against you, i have read some of the books and gone to some of the training and I don't see where this is hazing as defined in them.

per BW

The goal of the BSA is character, citizenship and mental, physical and emotional fitness. We have hundreds of resources that give specific activities we can do with scouts to reach this goal. Can you find one of those resources that has any mention of allowing singing to reclaim personal property? NO? Then it doesn't belong in the troop's program.

I guess if it isn't specifically allowed then it is against BSA policy - sorry, that's ridiculous when you consider that POLICY as you like to point out is only in BOLD CAPS in the books - i guess only breathing is allowed - wait, it isn't because it doesn't say you can breath...

BW says:

Let's stop trying to infuse the program with our personal take on what life is or isn't, and stick to presenting the "scouting " program as determined by the BSA and the handbooks you should be reading.

I assume you are directing this comment my way, and i find that you seem to be condensending towards me by making this statement - i feel harrassed - where can i go to have my feelings made better? I am reading the books (just got through with the new SM training last night as a matter of fact). BTW, better stop those SM minutes where you try to infuse your program with your personal take on what life is.

I'm sorry Bob if I sound a little annoyed, but i find myself agreeing with Rooster on this one regarding your attitude (at least how it comes across in this forum). I have a lot of respect for you and the knowledge of scouting you posess, but please don't discount others' contributions in the process of delivering yours.

SCTMOM writes There is just NO POINT in making them sing to get something back. Nothing will be gained from it. If the boys just joke about it, then is it changing their behavior?

The point is supposed to be a reinforcement to not leave their stuff laying about, but to take care of their equipment. The only thing gained is a boy who knows there are sometimes consequences to his actions / inactions. If the boys joke about it in a good natured way, it is most likely their way of dealing with real life (i understand some adults do that as well ). If the boys are flippant about it or laughing in a ridiculing way then the leaders need to instruct the boys in courtesy.

Taken to extremes a policy like this could result in hazing, but if there are accountable adults around who know, recognize and use good judgement, it shouldn't go to extremes.

We can't protect the boys from life (that's what happens between scouting events), but we can prepare them a little for it.

Seems like there are two camps on this issue - maybe we could have the local unit option here Sorry, couldn't resist.

Sctmom - when your son comes home and you make him pay for that tube of toothpaste he lost, don't complain when he calls child protective services to report you for abuse

NJ - when i read the first line of your post, i thought you and rooster were going to agree on something (thought the 2nd coming was right around the corner on that one )

We're talking about singing here folks, not public flogging. Call the police because YOU lost something? are you serious? Let's all blame someone else for our mistake - great example to give kids.

Would i make a kid sing for something? Probably not, but I don't think it's hazing either.

Sridle - i would either take the issue up with the SM and CC route. if it means that much, vote with your feet.(This message has been edited by Quixote)

Agreed Sctmom - at least until you want them to be quiet