bbng

So, out of curiosity, did the ideals begin to move out of front and center when a choice was made to adjust the program?

Eamonn, good point. Over the past 30 years (boy, do I feel old!), I've seen many good things come of Scouting. However, it's not stats that I use to measure anything. It is what those who were Scouts have said about how it helped them to be where they are today. Good dads, businessmen, and just plain good citizens in general. It seems that the lessons learned don't fade away. In fact, sometimes they just sort of take root, and it is years later that a man looks back and says, "I remember doing this in Scouts and it works today" (or something to that effect). Those who didn't finish Scouting for some reason often express regrets, and by finish, I mean left before aging out not necessarily by earning Eagle. They just know they missed out on something important, time that was valuable, and it leaves a void. The BSA is a wonderful program, and when it is followed, the youth benefit for many years to come. Pretty awesome stuff

http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/index.html

http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-800/index.html

The Honor Patrol Award might be helpful too, but I couldn't find the requirements.

The way this troop works, patrol leaders gather ideas from their patrols when it's time for the annual planning. Then Green Bar meets to draft a proposed calendar. It is submitted to the SM, who then submits it to the committee for approval (as he says, "I'd like to know I have your backing, that you back the boys' plans"). There is a patrol coach or advisor who is an asst SM for each patrol. This is where I see the adult association in play the most. Also, the patrol had to secure adults to go on a patrol camping trip, so again, they interact, though for the most part the adults aren't noticeably involved with the boys. My son told me there are a a bunch of leaders who don't do anything, and I know these leaders and how hard they work at "doing nothing"

I'm not very involved in a troop; my focus is on Cub Scouting. But I knew National had some info on the site, so I hope the above helps. Good luck and have fun in your new role working with patrols.

CNY: you describe a troop I know of. Could it be we both experienced the same troop at one time???

Additionally, the unit leaders have lists of justifications for doing things their way. They have no confidence in the youth's ability to plan an event or even a meeting, and that says two things to me. One, they're not there for the youth. Two, the youth won't have a chance to develop confidence and new skills. Interestingly enough, boys do quit units like this, or they stay but don't advance or even feel part of the unit, so they are more just on paper than part of the unit. These the unit leaders don't see the unit as a problem; rather, they find some fault with the youth, saying the unit is better off without that boy or the boy will get with it soon or as one said, "hey, they know where to find me, I'm sure not going after them". When the program is centered around adult choices and desires, the youth miss out big time. And when there are only parts of the program that are used, it is usually because of an adult, not because of the youth.

I'm not so sure BSA is loosey-goosey, but with leaders like this--who keep units alive if not necessarily fun (I honestly wonder at the attraction there)--perhaps that is the problem. I tend to see it more of an individual responsibility issue though, and as has been discussed here at times, part of that is getting unit leaders to read the books. If the unit leader is committed to delivering the program as intended, it will happen. If the leader doesn't know how to, that can be remedied if s(he) attends RT, training, has a relationship with the UC. If the leader doens't want to follow the program, it doesn't seem anything short of removing the leader will fix the problem. But that's just my take on this, and there would be problems with that too--ever notice how a "rebel" leader tends to have a following? It seems no matter who else cares about the unit (CO, DE, UC), it's the individual leaders who need to be sold out on Scouting. Sadly, many aren't. Happily, many many more are.

Welcome Beavah. FScouter said it well, so rather than reiterate it, I'll simply say ditto

I'd call the SE immediately, let him know what you know, including how things have been discussed and how one boy has been treated. The SE will guide you in what you should do now, and the rest (any investigation) will remain unknown to you. Your part is to call the SE and no one else. If the parents have complaints, there is no reason they can't call the SE too, IMO. That goes for both boys in this situation. I see nothing good coming of staying quiet about this in respect to the SE, and I wish you well as you call the SE. It's not a fun thing to do, but it's very important, and you seem to know you need to do something. Welcome to the forums.(This message has been edited by bbng)

Thank you KS. I didn't know how the searchers would handle this. Thanks too for the "look for a woman with small children" advice; that makes far more sense than the standard watch out for strangers advice.

I'm sure there will be many lessons--or reinforcements of them at least--as a result of this boy's last week. It sure does highlight the purpose of the buddy system and why it should always be used. The news about the strangers/searchers is disturbing, and perhaps a way to deal with that in the future will come of this. I can't even imagine how tired and frightened he must have been at this point, all alone, waiting for help, but not recognizing it and therefore hiding from it. He strikes me as a smart boy, who handled a scary situation in the best way possible for 11 years old--or older. How do we teach our children to recognize help in the form of strangers? That's a tough question to me, but if we teach them to hug a tree, how do we let them know when it's ok to let go of it?

A Boy Scout spokesperson, unnamed, has just confirmed that Brennan is alive and well. I'm watching this on Fox News. Still few details, but lots of excitement about the outcome.

EDIT: An announcement just given that a press conference will come on sometime, no time given. And someone said he's a Cub, not a Boy Scout, and it's all positive about how he used his Scout training to survive 4 days on his own.

AND...

FOX NEWS

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160189,00.html

FIND BRENNAN SITE

http://www.findbrennan.org/

CBS NEWS

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/06/21/national/main703165.shtml?CMP=OTC-RSSFeed&source=RSS&attr=HOME_703165

MSNBC

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8276685/

The news is hitting the web now as well as the tv, and I look forward to hearing how he did this, but for now, I just praise God that this little boy is safe.

(This message has been edited by bbng)

A volunteer firefighter found him and confirmed to newscasters, just now, that 11-year-old Brennan Hawkins has been found alive. More news is coming in now, and this is such great news, that I thought I'd pass it on. He is being rescued now; apparently he's in a spot tough to reach. I hate missing kid stories, but this one seems to be ending well.

NJCubScouter: I admitted that fraud has happened and that it is wrong. What I will not agree with is that because of one (in this case, Atlanta) council inflating all numbers that all do. The only council I can speak for is the one I am involved in; I know for a fact that every effort is made to keep records accurate. My point is simply that because a unit, district, or council can inflate the numbers does not mean that it will.

FScouter, who does it hurt? Personally, I don't care for the numbers game in any organization. The emphasis shouldn't be on numbers. What I find objectionable is the idea that all councils do lie, and after all, deliberately putting down an incorrect number or filling out an app that doesn't have a person attached to it (the fakes), is a lie. Numbers? I don't care about them. The person who will lie to create numbers that might impress people? I have a problem with that and don't believe that because one does it all does it.

I'm sorry that I wasn't clear on that, and also for being rather harsh.(This message has been edited by bbng)

Now this is how the BSA can and does manipulate the membership:

A council and/or its professional staff will add names to a scout unit in its last month before it renews.

I find that comment offensive. Could a council and/or professional staff do this? Sure, but why is the assumption that it is done? There are cases of fraud, and I for one find one case one case too many and make no excuses for it. That does not mean that all councils inflate their numbers.

How To Spot a Fake Unit:

You list many items that often are discussed right here as a challenge to units. I'll not list each one and counter, though I was tempted, but decided to not to--I'd probably end up sounding as bitter as this poster.

I'm not sure why you wrote such a long post of ways in which you think councils lie, but I'm not feeling as generous as Bob: much of what you wrote is flat-out wrong, and if there's some truth in there, it's so tangled up in fiction that it's hard to find it. It serves no purpose except to try to look the BSA look like an organization designed to line the pockets of SEs by lying to the public and fabricating youth and leaders.(This message has been edited by bbng)

My sons have a SM who will give time when he has it, and he and his assistants go on campouts with the idea that they are there simply to ensure safety and to be available if their advice/help is sought out. Though they encourage the boys to go to their PLs, they won't turn a boy away without making sure they set a time--soon--to talk.

OGE: I should not have been drinking when I read your response to NJ! I'm thinking remaining blissfully ignorant is not so bad

I agree NJ; you said it much better. A Scouter absolutely should not discuss his/her sexuality, and particularly with a youth. I guess our primary role is to be caring and responsible adults who are willing to listen and to be honest in how we respond (ie if we don't know, are uncomfortable discussing something, or think it's better that someone else do so--we should say so). I think we agree on this way of approaching this issue?

What a long and unending thread, so I may as well jump in too

NJCub wrote: I find this interesting, because I have never seen a Scouter discuss this issue in front of, or with, any boy. I have on occasion happened to overhear or have participated in conversations about this subject with other leaders.

That is very good, for I have been appalled to hear Scouters not only talk about gays in a hostile way, but also to do so in front of the youth. The youth modeled the talk, and it sure made for a most unpleasant atmosphere. I am not opposed to the policy as it is now; I do, however, find those who speak in hateful and disparaging ways to be a disgrace to Scouting. And yeah, I told them (the adults, that is) so, and it was not exactly taken well. Seems a few names and labels were then attached to me...lovely bunch...sigh....

Trevorum wrote: You're right that sexuality, and discussions of sexuality, have no place in Scouting. Therefor, a ban on one type of sexuality or another makes absolutely no sense.

One problem with that. I just took a look at the Boy Scout Handbook, and in the Index, you'll see "sexual abuse" and "sexual responsibility" listed. So I looked up the responsibility part, and it covers a few things, and then concludes with this:

If you have questions about growing up, about relationships, or about sex, ask. Talk with your parents, religious leaders, teachers, or Scoutmaster. They want what is best for you. Let them know your concerns.

Pretty heavy topic to direct a youth to talk to the SM about, and most youth wouldn't want to talk to adults about sex, but we should be prepared to do so...even if it's to refer them to someone else (parent, religious leader, teacher) who might be better able to answer their concerns. Bottom line: sex is in the handbook, so BSA doesn't ignore it.

You are correct; it is simply:

While a First Class Scout, take part in service projects totaling at least 6 hours of work. These projects must be approved by your Scoutmaster.

As I read it, there are two clear reqts: (1) a time reqt of a minimum of 6 hours, and (2) that they are approved by the SM prior to carrying out the projects. I look forward to how others reply, but it seems that the SM does have a say due to his approving projects ahead of time.

I've been there, though with Cubs, and here's what I did. I listened very carefully to the leaders, particularly the den leaders, and asked questions to get a feel for what the concerns were. Then, at home, after each meeting, I took out several BSA books, looking up the subject of concern in each one. I simply copied those items, sent them to the CM, and after he and I spoke, then forwarded it to the rest of the unit leadership with encouragement to "let's try this next month". Not ONCE did following what was in the BSA books fail the unit. Was it a headache to read the books? For me, no, but as Barry notes, there sure is a resistance to reading. Therefore, I gave bits and pieces at a time--I guess you could say spoon fed the program to others You sound like the person who could do this, and I wish you well. Not only that, but I know you will be glad you've done this, for you will see the boys become more active and happier with Scouting, though one word of caution: don't expect huge changes overnight. Maybe that will happen, it sure can happen, but the news will travel. Oh, and I never said, "I think we should do this this way..." but instead would take the approach of saying, "you know, this looks like the answer to some of what we've been discussing recently - what do you think of giving it a try?" It takes away that know-it-all edge and creates an atmosphere of learning and trying new things together.

p.s. In less than one school year's worth of doing this, most of the leaders had purchased their own copies of these books and even asked for more training. They just needed to know (a) that the stuff was there, (b) that someone was willing to read it to them (insert big grin here), and © give it a shot and see that YES it does work.

p.p.s. Just an FYI, but when I first began to do this, it was a parent, not a registered leader. I wanted to understand the program our kids were part of and eventually became part of it myself. So, don't underestimate position either; just be kind and helpful but keep referencing those BSA materials.(This message has been edited by bbng)

I'm afraid I may not be much help, but here's my experience. First, where it didn't work: registered leaders were using poor language and making inappropriate remarks (sexist, racist), and I went face to face to those who were and asked them to please watch what they said around my son and the boys. I was laughed at. I countered with "we're all leaders here and adults, and though you find this funny, I think we should hold ourselves and one another accountable to the Scout Oath and Law." I was laughed at even harder, and some rude things were said. My point here: some people won't change.

On the other hand, an active parent--an RGG --was always around, always lending a hand, always willing to do anything to help out. No complaints, but the language was non-stop foul. So, I go to this person one on one, say how much I appreciate his help and enthusiasm, but say that I sure do want to help him avoid being embarrassed when we head to camp as some of the language used by him would draw attention--unwanted attention. He was angry at first, but about a week later, he thanked me. Not long after that, he wanted to be a leader. He became a leader, and he got a uniform. An interesting thing happened. He cleaned up his act big time, and while in uniform particularly, he was very conscious of his words and actions. I respected that and told him so. Is it possible that this RGG of yours would respond to the approach of (1) he is embarrassing himself though he may not yet know it (it seems like he's respected except for the language), and (2) that maybe he's a guy who could become an adult leader if he cleans up his language, and in turn, he'd become an even greater asset?

Just some thoughts. I don't envy you this; it's a tough one.

This info would answer your question though; you sure can keep someone from going camping without an updated form. I'd use this one sentence in Class One:

"Forms must be updated annually."

Therefore, a youth or adult with no health form on record needs to submit one prior to the next campout/outing. A youth or adult with an outdated form needs to submit one prior the next campout/outing. I personally would have no problem with this, and I've found that BSA camps actually require a current medical history on every person attending camp--or they may not attend. That's in 4 different councils, so it is done. I'm not sure why people are so resistant to handing these in, but they do serve a purpose, and I had to do a little arm-twisting to get some. Leaders' kids were the worst, interestingly enough.

I think that the Quality Unit award is a farce. Every unit in our district last year earned the Quality Unit award.

When I asked why the Troop had received the award, as I did not think we had meet the requirements he remarked, Well, we didnt but they give it to us every year anyway.

The problem is not the award; it is the away the award has been handled by some, certainly not all. I know of units that have worked hard to earn QU; I know of units that are active and fun and close but fail to meet it for a particular year and don't fudge the forms; I know of units that are loosing kids but still meet the requirements and can honestly sign that form. Knowing something about our district and council, I know that paperwork isn't fudged, nor would that attitude/action be supported or swept under the rug. One of the things learned from the QU forms is that many of those not making it weren't doing so due to the training reqts. Therefore, there is now an effort underway to address training needs. Clearly, though training was available, people weren't attending, so this is now a much more important issue. To get QU? No, to have trained leaders because that's how best to serve the youth. However, I suspect that QU will go up as more leaders are trained, but I don't see the harm in this but rather the good that comes of this when QU is not abused.

The G2SS mentions health forms or "proof of fitness or good health" in several places. This may be the most beneficial part to answer your questions:

Class 1:

Includes any event that does not exceed 72 consecutive hours, where the level of activity is similar to that normally expended at home or at school, and where medical care is readily available. Examples: day camp, day hike, swimming party, or an overnight camp. Medical information required is a current health history signed by parents or guardian. The health history form currently found on the back of the BSA individual applications or the Class I Personal Health and Medical History found on form No. 34414A (Personal Health and Medical Record) meets this requirement. Den leaders, Scoutmasters, team coaches, and crew Advisors should review these and become knowledgeable about the medical needs of the youth members in their unit. Forms must be updated annually. They are filled out by participants and kept on file for easy reference.

Class 2:

Includes any event that exceeds 72 consecutive hours, where the level of activity is similar to that normally expended at home or at school, and where medical care is readily available. Examples: resident camping, tour camping, and hiking in relatively populated areas. Medical data required is an annual health history signed by parents or guardian supported by a medical evaluation completed within the past 36 months by a licensed health-care practitioner. The Personal Health and Medical RecordClass 2, on No. 34414A, is designed primarily for resident Cub Scout and Boy Scout summer camp but could be used for any Class 2 activity. Youth members and adult participants under 40 years of age use this form. (See Camp Health and Safety for additional information on Class 2 application.)

Class 3:

Class 3: Includes any event involving strenuous activity such as backpacking, high altitude, extreme weather conditions, cold water, exposure, fatigue, athletic competition, adventure challenge, or remote conditions where readily available medical care cannot be assured. Examples: high-adventure activities, jamborees, Wood Badge, and extended backpacking trips in remote areas. Medical information required includes current health history supported by a medical evaluation within the past 12 months performed by a licensed health-care practitioner. Form 34412A is to be used by youth for Class 3 activities. Adults age 40 or older will use this form for Class 2 and Class 3 activities. See form No. 34414A, Personal Health and Medical Record, for more information....

It is recommended that unit leaders have a complete medical history and permission slip for every participant attending each Scouting activity. The medical history form and permission slip, in most cases, will allow emergency medical treatment to a youth member in case of injury or illness when a parent or guardian cannot be contacted.

Hope this helps.(This message has been edited by bbng)

I used to automatically give the benefit of the doubt to a Scout leader who was breaking, bending, manipulating, or totally disregarding a rule, policy, method. However, in my own experience, I have learned that those who think it's ok to cut corners or pick and choose what to follow will do so in the big areas (yes, YP and safety) as well as the so-called little areas (socks--have to chuckle at how often those socks have been mentioned). Perfection is not the goal; setting the best possible example is. Using the BSA materials, this actually doesn't seem all that hard to do. >>>edited part: fixed typo & added comment

Oak Tree, I'm not sure if you're a leader or not, but I am both parent and leader. As a parent, I want my children to understand that they are part of a membership organization, and therefore, they either follow its rules, or if they decide they don't agree with them (whether it's in respect to uniforms, advancement, or any other method), then they are free to leave the organization. As for the speed limit, my children don't understand why I bother to follow it. They say, "but look how fast everyone else is going". My reply? I have a driver's license, it is a privilege that may be revoked if I do not handle it responsibly, and part of that is to follow the laws regardless of what others do. If the police stop me for speeding, do I truly have the right to say, "but officer, you were going fast" or "but all the other cars were going fast" or "I know that the limit isn't reasonable and no one is expected to actually follow it". The very idea of that doesn't sit well with me; to try to tell my children that it's somehow ok doesn't work for me.

Now clearly there are those that disagree with me. That's fine by me, but I will not change my convictions that any time I have a particular privilege (BSA registration, driver's license--neither is something owed to me as I understand them) I may use it however I see fit.

Forgetting a particular pair of socks or belt? No, it's not a big deal, and it will happen to everyone. A pattern of deliberately choosing what to follow and what to disregard, particularly as a parent and as a leader, that is disturbing to me. That will undermine my trust in a leader, and it is certainly what I do my best to avoid so that I'll not cause others to lose their trust in me.

Bob askes some good questions, though the title threw me.

In a recent post a scouter bragged on how he knowingly wears an incorrect uniform because it pleases him personally. No other poster said a word about it, even though the writer admitted it was against a BSA rule. A minor rule I agree, but a rule nonetheless.

I wonder if he expects the scouts to follow ALL the troop rules, or just the big ones...or just the ones that don't cause the scout personal inconvenience? Can the scout in the troop ignore rules for "sentimental reasons"?

I don't think I saw that post, but it could be someone I know. What a slippery slope to use sentimental reasons for uniforming. One leader wanted to wear a particular piece of insignia though he said he knew it was not the right way to wear it. However, he liked it and it had sentimental value to it. Additionally, he didn't like what he should be wearing. Seems harmless, right? Fast forward. Now several leaders are wearing incorrect insignia. Why? Well, why not? They wear what they like, and it's harmless and not real obvious. Fast forward one more time. Newly trained leader comes back from training session that covers the uniform method. Realizing that the way many leaders are currently uniformed is not correct, it's questioned. The answer: we like it this way and think that rule is silly. That's the leaders. Now look at the boys in the troop: not one is fully uniformed. Badges are out of date; no one seems to update them. Shirts are worn hanging loose, and even worse, sometimes unbuttoned over a t-shirt. Pants are a variety of colors and styles, most droopy and none olive. So, one leader makes a deliberate choice, even defends the choice, and knowingly is improperly uniformed and it makes no difference? I wonder...what might it be like if the leader were to now wear his uniform correctly? The message is clear: just because it's a BSA uniform doesn't mean I have to follow BSA uniforming policy--it's mine and I can do with it what I want. In other words, kiss off policy makers, I know better. The attitude, not the uniform, that's the problem. And I cannot accept that a person who knowingly blows off one method to do it his way regardless of how insignificant it may be will limit that attitude to just that method.