bbng

G2SS is shorthand for Guide to Safe Scouting. This is a very important resource, and it may just solve some of the problems you are facing. Every activity should be planned following the G2SS as well as the Age-Appropriate Guidelines. Also, if you are unsure of what is guideline and what is policy, within the G2SS policy is in bold print. Also, the Cub Scout Leader Handbook covers many policies. As CM, I highly recommend that you have copies of these. The G2SS and age-appropriate guidelines are online:

http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-260/index.html

http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/index.html(This message has been edited by bbng)

You might have more success in getting a response if you were to (1) not shout at Scouter Terry (all caps indicates shouting in case you didn't know), and (2) if you were not to demand an answer but instead were to ask for something on the forums or to send a PM to him.

Hi Jaime, and welcome. I wish both you and your son a wonderful week at summer camp!

reid01, are you aware that you can use "reply" to continue a post you start? Just in case you might not realize that, you can do so to keep a subject going.

Super! I'm glad you're working on the Personal Fitness merit badge. Here is a link to the requirements that includes more links specific to this merit badge: http://meritbadge.com/mb/010.htm . Many of us here have ideas on what each of those components mean, but the most important thing is for you to think about and come to a conclusion as to what they mean to you personally. Are you finding this to be challenging? If so, keep asking questions and trying out your thoughts on us (as well as your MB counselor), and you're sure to get help from both these forums and your MB counselor.

reid01, welcome to the forums. Are you asking as an adult leader or as a Scout? It would help to have an idea of why you are asking the question. With a little more background, you'll probably get a good conversation going here

Student, that is a good point, though it is not unique to Scouting units. I've worked in various non-profits, and they often rely heavily on volunteer time and donations. It can be hard to recruit new volunteers, though I have actually found that far easier than dealing with the volunteers who drive others away and are either in the wrong roles or have the wrong motivation.

I'm not sure I agree that getting volunteers overall is much harder today that it was about 20 years ago though. The key seems to lie in recruiting leadership right from the start who are willing to work on the program using the program materials. The reason using those program materials is important (well, one of the reasons ) is that it puts everyone on the same page. Even when several of us look at the same page of a book we tend to interpret it differently, but we've a much better shot at maintaining a common goal/focus if we use the materials than if we don't. All it takes one person to try a different way, to sell others on it, and then it's hard to get back to the "should bes".

When I have recruited in any organization, one thing I've learned is this: when I sincerely believe in it, can share how time and/or finances invested in that agency served the people it was there to help, then others get excited about it too. Enthusiasm is contagious, support it with case histories to bring the "work" of the particular agency--in this case Scouting units--alive, and the hurdle can be overcome. The opposite is true too; if we make ourselves known to others as having to work hard, as being frustrated, as wishing the program could be different, that too will be contagious.

Dan K, back to the post that started it all: I'm not sure I have answers, but I honestly believe that if we can get leaders in place at all levels who can talk up the program, help others learn it, and keep up that enthusiasm, then we can improve on what we've got...even if stuck with it.

My disclaimer: I am not against change or discussion of frustrations; I simply am trying to look at the postives here too

Thank you Fred.

Fred, do you know when this book is due to hit the shelves?

Gardener, welcome. Cub camp just finished here, and several boys from this troop served on staff all week as volunteers, each working 35 hours. The SM does count these hours, and the camp program director sends a certificate to each boy confirming his hours and thanking him for serving.

Thank you fgoodwin, and thanks for the clear explanation in addition to resources on the founding of Scouting.

fgoodwin, what do you mean by purist? Thanks for posting that link; what a great site for an overview of Scouting's beginnings in the UK. Cub Scouting does "further" the Scouting movement, because the principles of Cubbing were laid down by the Founder of the Scouting Movement himself! I agree with what you said. What I personally do not agree with is that Cub Scouting exists solely to build up troops (and that, in context, is how furthering the movement has come across), though certainly a boy should learn skills that will help prepare him for a troop.

Regardless of where this thread goes, Cub Scouting has value for the boys who take part in it. I personally support the program in its entirety and have been involved in working on recruiting Cub Scouts as well as working at improving retention of both Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts. It is my opinion that any youth who misses out on Scouting misses out on what may be the single best program available. Wrapped up in all the fun and adventure, there are lessons learned that last a lifetime, and it is a privilege to be part of that.(This message has been edited by bbng)

Who is that makes you feel that you've been crucified? It has been pointed out to you by many that you are incorrect when you claim to know how to do things best. You keep your claim to fame rather vague and boastful, tending to focus on what you have done rather than how the boys in the troop have been served. You came to the forums, began posting, and as you continued to post, you used your owns posts as references to newer posts. You bring attention to yourself, and if you don't care for the responses, then you always have the option you claim to have exercised in multiple positions in the BSA: simply don't post since it doesn't work for you. Juris, anyone calling you names or being unkind is acting unScoutlike, but you are too by the way in which you continue to refer to the BSA in a derogatory manner (ie BSA, Inc is not the Boy Scouts of America -- it is an employment agency).

My dear Souters: some of you missed my point ? " Cub Scouting is not good in furthering our Scout Movement ." I showed you just one of example, there are more,

The Scouting movement was an idea started in England by Baden-Powell, based on the conviction that boys can live up to a code of conduct and can develop themselves physically, mentally, and spiritually in association with other boys through a program of appealing activities and advancement challenges under the leadership of adults. Cub Scouting is not designed to further the Scout movement. Rather, it is part of it. the Boy Scouts of America helps younger boys through Cub Scouting and has done so for 75 years. The BSA serves youth; youth do not serve the BSA. Likewise, Cub Scout units do not exist to serve Boy Scout troops.

Maybe some one else will point that out.BSA, Inc, runs many youth programs, such as Scout Troops,venture units,explorers. OA chapters, and etc. But they are not the original concept of what Baden Powell created. Souting was boys from 12 to 17 years of age. Then BSA,Inc. decided to expand it's program not for the sake of the youth welfare,but so they can make more money.

By BSA,Inc, I would assume you are referring to the BSA? Historically, "Scouting" has been the generic term for the organization and activities of the Boy Scouts of America. It refers also to Boy Scout, Varsity Scout, and troop and team activities. The program of the Boy Scouts of America is designed to fulfill its chartered purpose to achieve objectives in character development, citizenship training, and fitness adapted to the age groups: Tiger Cubs, Cub Scouts, Webelos Scouts, Boy Scouts, Varsity Scouts, and Venturers. The program is carried out in units run by local organizations chartered by the Boy Scouts of America. The program of the BSA appealed to more ages; therefore it was expanded. Unless citizenship training, character development, and fitness can be sold, I fail to see where this is just a money-making scheme.

At roundable and campouts we joke some times ,that soon they will be taking boys who are still in diabers and making them into Scouts, (ha,ha)Carol dear, you are most likely a member of the "Baby sitters of America ", good cubing to you.

You've made mention of roundtable many times, and never in a good way. Perhaps your jokes at roundtable have been considered inappropriate? Oh, and cubing would be a good thing to learn--very handy in preparing stew I know that was a typo, but it made me chuckle; you meant Cub Scouting I'm sure.

When cub scouting start using Troop programs, then there are no reason for that boy to join a bonefide Troop.That's how we lose membership,

I am surprised that in all the experience you've amassed that you've somehow missed out on understanding that Cub Scouting is that part of the program of the Boy Scouts of America for boys who are in the first grade through fifth grade (or are 7 through 10 years old). The emphasis is on family-centered activities, group activities, learning, and having fun. Boy Scouting is that part of the program of the Boy Scouts of America for boys and young men not yet 18 years old, and who are at least 11, or have completed the fifth grade and are at least 10 years old, or who have earned the Arrow of Light Award in Cub Scouting and are at least 10 years old. The emphasis is on outdoor activity, learning skills, developing leadership ability, and service. Seems to me that the focus is the same, yet different. The program has one set of purposes for all, but it is delivered differently due the age differences of the boys.

Sorry to say Cubbing is not Scouting. We just belong to BSA,Inc. that is running the program.

That doesn't make sense. Cubbing is an obsolete term, so it's true that it's not part of the BSA. BSA, Inc does exist, but it does not stand for Boy Scouts of America or anything remotely related to the BSA that we are discussing here. So if by Cubbing you mean Cub Scouting, and by BSA, Inc, you mean the BSA, then by the definitions provided by the Boy Scouts of America Cub Scouting is part of Scouting, which is a common way of referring to the program of the Boy Scouts of America.

I improved the recruiting program by asking my high ranking scouts to serve as Den Leaders in the Packs, so they can influence the Cub scouts to join the best troop in the district.

How old were these high-ranking Scouts?

I also found that Cubs learned a lot of the skills very poorly. We had to re learn them all over, to qualify for their scouting advancement. Many boys were questening my PL's and SPL, why can't they use the cubbing badges instead ?

And the point of this is??? You see, even boys who have been taught well, who have been able to demonstrate the skills, might forget how to do something if it is not used. As a boy moves up in rank, he normally does review what he has learned, and in a good troop, he will be helping others to learn, which is how he keeps what he has learned fresh. As for using cubbing badges, they don't exist, so I'm getting redundant, but what is wrong with a boy needing to be taught about merit badges? These are new to him. And this nagging thought keeps coming back to me: if I, in my limited trainings to date, have learned the processes, why do they remain so unclear to you who has served on staff and gone through Wood Badge training?

...but one wonders why all of them don't join a Boy Scout Troop ???????

For many reasons, and many of us work hard at recruiting. However, if the program isn't presenting in an appealing way, the boys won't be interested. The way you've described Scouting in this post alone is confusing to me, a fellow Scouter. It could sure confuse a boy. One area to work on--one I am actively involved in this council--is to improve communications and marketing.

Since the Pack already provided the same program.

No, it didn't. I'd highly recommend that you review the Cub Scout handbooks these boys would have been using. There is nothing in the list of activities you've provided that indicates the boys were involved in a troop as opposed to a pack.

Rono..., I would gladly give you my former Unit number,Ditrict, and council. So you can go and research it for authenticy. But that would not prove anything. All it would is create more contrevercy.

Would you give it to me then? And why would it create controvercy? You haven't created controversy, by the way; you've simply given out wrong information.

Take some training courses, so you can be more informed. But, my advice is don't ask these questions at the training courses or roundables, because you will be rediculed by the 'numskulls' who run them.

Ahhhhhhhhh...and now it is clear as to why you have not learned the program. You've been trained by numbskulls. That name calling doesn't sound very Scout-like, nor does the idea that anyone would be ridiculed during roundtable or training sessions. It is certainly possible that it happens, it is quite likely that attendees might not care for what they hear, but it is not Scout-like.

Amen, Juris,www.

So be it? No, I'll continue to disagree with what's been stated. Your stating it doesn't make it so.

***Bold print: items quoted from the BSA literture.

Lynda posted: My dad use to say. "A good leader is one that everything gets done and no one realized who got it done. A bad leader is one that wants to make sure everyone know how hard they are working and takes credit for everything everyone does."

Lynda, you've posted this before, and I'd like to thank you for sharing this. Your dad must have been a good leader.

In fairness to the youth here, I'd like to point out that many do communicate clearly and well.(This message has been edited by bbng)

Your post is not shocking. It is one more way that you show that you don't truly know the BSA program. Cubbing, den mothers, weblows: none of these terms are used today and one has never been used. Also, it would appear that you were recruiting Boy Scouts from Cub Scout age boys. No, juris, your post is not shocking; you simply are confirming your lack of knowledge of the BSA.

Would a code of conduct be helpful? The Building Blocks of Scouting is on-line and includes this:

Scouting is a values-based program with its own code of conduct. The Scout Oath and Law help instill the values of good conduct, respect for others, and honesty. Scouts learn skills that will last a lifetime, including basic outdoor skills, first aid, citizenship skills, leadership skills, and how to get along with others. For almost a century, Scouting has instilled in young men the values and knowledge that they will need to become leaders in their communities and country.

If you go the National Council Web site, you can do a search on "building blocks" and easily locate this entire publication. I hope this helps. It is www.scouting.org

(This message has been edited by bbng)

SR540Beaver, well said. It is interesting to me that the original poster starts out by making a claim of knowing how to keep a boy in Scouting but does so by not following the program. What came to my mind is that this person may have kept boys in a program, but it was not the program of the Boy Scouts of America.

In reading other posts by this same forum member, it seems that he or she may have led a program for 30-some years, but the program described thus far is not that of the Boy Scouts of America, which is correctly referred to as the BSA or Boy Scouts of America:

Boy Scouts of America: The legal name of the organization is singular. Example: "In 2010 the Boy Scouts of America will celebrate its 100th anniversary." The abbreviation is BSA (without periods) and is used with the article ("the BSA") when used as a noun.

Juris, you've made many claims as to what you've accomplished, but you've not posted your Wood Badge course, your NEI number, or things of that nature that fellow Scouters enjoy hearing about. It would be interesting to hear this.

Leadership requirements do not include being a father (as was correctly stated), but they also do not include having been a Boy Scout, having enjoyed Scouting while a Boy Scout, or even enjoying being with kids. As for a troop commitee debating and interfering: perhaps a troop committee that holds a SM accountable to following the BSA program would find that inconvenient, but a troop committee is in place to select and support a SM, which would include accountability. If I were a SM who was picking and choosing methods, I would absolutely want to avoid the troop committee, for I'd rightfully think my time as SM would be coming to an end.

The BSA often says that every boy deserves a trained leader, but I have yet to have heard or read that any person can be a leader. In fact, a list of qualifications is in place with training for the charter organization representative in carefully selecting leaders. It may not always be used, but the method is there, and no one I know of (in 30-some years) has regretted following that process. However, many who have not followed it have ended up regretting it.

The bottom line is that adults are in leadership for the sake of the youth. If the motivation is not to serve them, then the adult has no business being a leader. According to the BSA, both the adult and the youth will learn (Boy Scouts is a boy-led, boy-run organization, but the boys must be trained to be leaders. One of the Scoutmaster's most important responsibilities is to provide the direction, coaching, and training that empowers the boy with the skills he will need to lead his troop. Scouting's value to young people is clear, but the advantages of Scouting are not limited to boys. Adults also develop leadership and physical skills with every training experience.) However, I have not yet attended Wood Badge, but I'm working toward that, and it will be with the goal of learning to better use the program I've already been instructed in. Surely you would agree that my taking Fast Start through Wood Badge is the best way to learn the BSA program in order to best benefit the youth? It doesn't seem as though you would now share that goal, but at one time, for you to have held so many roles and to have been so committed in giving of your time, you must have believed in the program. Otherwise, I simply don't understand the investment of time you've laid claim to.

In reading your other posts, I find it hard to agree with your assessment of yourself that you've a very good background in Scouting. You may have had many opportunities to grow as a leader, but in a short time, right here on these forums, you've managed to show that you do not understand or support the program. There is just no way to say this without sounding offensive, but my goal is not to offend: it is to try to get a grasp on the things that appear incorrect. If I have misread you, then by all means, please set the record straight.

By the way, what is www. after your name?

Footnote: items in italics are quotes from the National Council of the Boy Scouts of America.(This message has been edited by bbng)

Ed, you're right--just checked out the grill you mention and I can see how that would be confusing. Hops, I can't view any CSPs at all. I have also noticed that commissioner apparel is not on-line yet (but that says more about me that I actually know the catalog by heart ). As for screen width, there is extra space on my computer screen, no scroll bar showing, and I checked out the FAQs; there are system requirements provided, so it seems they know this could be an issue for some. All in all, for the first day(s) of the site, it's a great start, and I suspect there will improvements over time as the glitches are worked out and feedback is recieved as the site is used.

Ed, how do you think it could be better organized? Just curious, as I thought it was nicely done. However, I did notice that not all items are available on-line, but that may come in time. Like most on-line stores, this will take a ton of work, something I know from personal experience.

Though I've no clue how many do get lost, I like the idea of wearing clothing that is brighter or lighter. Cub Scout day camp uses colors to identify who's who: adult staff in yellow, den chiefs in green, and youth in yet another color. Today, while at camp, I noticed that the den chiefs weren't visible from a distance. However, the adults and Cubs stood out from quite far away. It made it easy to keep track of the Cubs when working on camp staff, so it certainly seems logical to suggest it for Scouts.

From the Salt Lake Tribune

http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_2825225

Ordeal leads Scouts to consider age policy

GUIDELINE MAY BE HONORED

In the wake of the Brennan Hawkins ordeal, the Utah Boy Scouts will review whether to enforce the organization's guideline that suggests younger boys not be included in activities organized for older Scouts.

"Our safety and camping committee will look into it. This is definitely an issue," said Kay Godfrey, a spokesman for the Great Salt Lake Council of the Boy Scouts of America. "The nature of [the Hawkins] event is something we have to address. We will take a look at how we can ensure a stronger safety net around our youth."

Hawkins, 11, attended a three-day camp-out June 17-19, which drew about 1,500 Varsity Scouts, 14 to 17 years old, at the East Fork of the Bear River Boy Scout Reservation in the Uinta Mountains. He was the guest of his 11-year-old friend Brian Christensen and his father, Martin Christensen, a Scoutmaster for a Bountiful troop.

Hawkins wandered away from the camp Friday evening and was missing for four days and four nights. But just before noon Tuesday, Hawkins was spotted by searchers near Lily Lake.

= = = = = = = = = = =

An 11-year-old at a camping event for 14- to 17-year-olds. This should never have happened due to the age guidelines already in place. It seems to me that this is a perfect example of what can go wrong when the guidelines provided are not followed. I'm glad this boy is safe, know that accidents happen, but now it sure seems that this was preventable. It's done now, but it should be a lesson to us all: we truly do need to pay attention to the guidelines offered by BSA. I'm glad the council is reviewing this too.(This message has been edited by bbng)

Dan K, well said. The reasons given for not following the program or for not following part of it can be surprising. They range from "I didn't know" to "I don't want to know" to "I know but think I know better than BSA". Add into the mix varying personalities, motivations, and degrees of experience, and a picture of the unit becomes clearer. Without knowing the why of resistance, it's not possible to overcome it.

This troop holds a camping weekend each year where the focus is on youth leadership training. Green Bar identifies strengths and weaknesses on a monthly basis, but during this time, this is done again, working with the adults to get advice as the boys draft plans for working on areas of weakness. The troop has not been boy-led for quite 5 years, and this camping trip has been instrumental in helping that happen. However, the troop has patrols, and it is the patrol leaders on an ongoing basis who evaluate the program; then all the youth have an opportunity to take part in the weekend conference. There is training involved, but I don't know how's that accomplished; I am only familiar with one aspect of it and know it's been beneficial as well as fun.

Please provide the newspaper reference to the incident. I am having difficulty following what you've typed.

As for safety, leaders have many tools to use, and most wouldn't want to have it read to them at training. The Guide to Safe Scouting, Health and Safety, and the Boy Scout Handbook deal with safety issues as do many other publications. If a unit was told to teach boys could weather camping, and the result is that 3 boys ended up with frostbite, quite frankly, that unit didn't bother to use the resources available to it. I'm not sure how that is district's or council's fault, nor how it would be the fault of the BSA (if that is what you were getting at).