bbng

Our Daisy troop uses a room that it may not keep anything in. The leader's solution is to use a corkboard, put items on it that she wants displayed, and simply prop it up against the wall each meeting. This works out just fine as all parents know where to look for it.

Our Boy Scout troop uses an easel with poster boards for sign-ups. There are no displays that I'm aware of except at COHs.

I used to use masking tape and put posters on a door that didn't mark up when I was with a pack. Den displays were on folding tables and/or taped onto that door. Sign up sheets were on clipboards.

Our council offers two cold weather camping courses each, one for an evening that is for day outings and the other that is a full day for weekends. Council requires that any unit attending winter camping events take part in this. However, it is limited to two adults and two youth per unit that may attend. They are then expected to take what they've learned back to the unit and teach others. It's not only a good way to get cold weather camping training into many if not all units, but it also gives Scouts a chance to learn and then teach. If you've some Scouts who are now trained, perhaps this would be an acceptable alternative for your troop. Since this is a safety issue, the committee does have a right to make sure appropriate training is taken/available. They sign the local tour permit approving the trip and planning.

The only person who may serve in more than one registered role in the same unit is the Chartered Organization Representative.

Now, as far as den leaders participating at committee meetings, when I was CM, that was common practice. The DLs wanted to be on the committee (meaning they really wanted a voice in how things were to be done). This is not uncommon, but as far as registration goes, one role per person within the same unit.

Hope this helps.

Happy Anniversary!

Scouting's been great for our family. A family of 5, we all 5 are registered in the BSA or Girl Scouts or both. During the Cub years, we looked forward to fun together, particularly on the outings. Now we've begun something new: camping as a family. It is Scouting that got us to do this, and the time together is fantastic. 15 years of marriage, not quite 5 in Scouting as adults, and it's an activity that we can share as husband-wife, but also with our children.

This may vary council to council. Our council picks up the cost of insurance for all registered youth and adults. However, I don't know how Tiger adult partners are treated--if they are considered registered and therefore insured, or if they are simply on the roster as partners.(This message has been edited by bbng)

I wish I had an answer for you; I'm still trying to figure out how to reach people effectively and I hate the phone. Both the District Executive and District Commissioner have identified this as a weak area and are working on it. E-mail is one way, but there is no way to know who actually reads the e-mails; even when requesting "read receipts", not all will respond. So we created a district web site to highlight council and district events, who's who in the district, and relevant info. When it comes to roundtables, items covered in RT don't go on the site until after the RT, and then it's limited due to copyright and logistics. Since I am the webmaster, I know the hits are still really limited, but the council site has been improving (it had undergone some pretty big changes) and more people are visiting it. Knowing that our Unit Commissioners have tried, without success, to get hold of current unit leaders in some packs (and the DE is not aware of a change, nor is the COR) as RT commissioner I am sending out a mailing to highlight what has been covered this past fall and to extend an invitation to anyone who has been unable to attend. The very best method I know of though is the one that is least practical: the personal invitation. As I meet leaders, I invite them to council and district events other than the RT, and quite often they come out. Bit by bit, we are working together to improve this area of communications, but it is not easy. Do you have a current council web site, or is the information info that you'd prefer not to have online?

If he has evil intent, threatening him with training should do it.

What a funny thing to say about training

I agree that too much shouldn't be read into this, but it's uncommon--around here anyway--for anyone to stay in Cub Scouting without a purpose. Now in the case of a troop, no one can get rid of the leaders even after their sons have been long gone, but then most don't want to get rid of them either. I happen to love Cub Scouting, so I'm still involved, though I don't have sons who are Cub Scouts. However, I am registered, and everyone knows why I'm around. It seems that this Dad's presence is beginning to alarm others, but since he's registered as a leader, it makes sense that he is there even when his son isn't. I second what scoutldr said; training is a good idea. Maybe he simply does not know what to do.(This message has been edited by bbng)

Is the Dad a leader?

Is the Dad coming for a particular purpose (to find out what son needs to do to keep up with the den, for instance)?

Or is the Dad just hanging out, no clear purpose, with a son who is registered but doesn't come? In this case, I would have to wonder why the Dad is there too.

Our district goes far more indepth on topics of interest to both Cub Scouters and Scouters during the monthly roundtables. Particularly on the Cub Scout side, this is proving to be quite successful, for it is common for adults attending to training to want more indepth discussion and how-tos after completing their initial trainings.

Here is the Pack Trainer form found on the national council site:

http://www.scouting.org/cubscouts/resources/13-152.pdf

I'd love to hear how this progresses. Way to go on getting material into unit leaders' hands!

Are you familiar with the "My Best Friend Is A Cub Scout" peer-to-peer recruiting program? It sounds similar to what you've worked up, but only the recruiter gets a patch. I like the idea of both the recruiter and the new boy receiving something, and those wrist bands are extremely popular.

Cub Scouters who quit around here seem to mostly quit from Cub Scouting only when their sons bridge into a troop. It is not unusual for them to move into a troop in some capacity and never look back unless it's to remind the pack that the pack owes them recruits because these were "my boys".

The other reason for Cub Scouters leaving, and I'm seeing more of this, is that they feel burned out by the time their sons leave. Cub Scouting can be hard on an adult leader, but it doesn't have to be, and that is my personal focus lately (through RT).

As for adults in troops, the only adults I know of who have quit fall into two categories: those whose sons have aged out sometimes (but only sometimes) step down. The others who quit are frustrated with the troop leadership because (1) they aren't welcomed by those already involved, (2) there is a certain way of doing things, and if a new leader becomes trained, s(he) rocks the boat and is told so, or (3) they are just blatantly disrespected by fellow leaders (seems women are more often than men). In that second camp, those leaders stay for a time, trying to make the best of things, but eventually just giving up...or being told they aren't needed. Their names are crossed off, their sons' names stay on, but in time the sons usually drop too.

I have not yet met a person who believes in the program and has a vision for it who has quit unless it's due to a health or family issue. They tend to stay on from Cubs to the troop to sometimes district and council positions.(This message has been edited by bbng)

Ok, Joe, now I'm mad. With you hearing these things confirmed by adults involved, and with what I read basically as a "shrug" by the CC, I'm wondering how exactly this BOR has this Scout's interests in mind. Is the letter forthcoming, and was the appeals process explained to your son? Of course he wasn't in the best of minds; he was disappointed--any Scout would be. Worse, he was being asked to explain things that he was told aren't in the Scout Handbook.

This board failed big time IMO by (1) testing the Scout, (2) testing the Scout on items admittedly not in the Scout Handbook, (3) apparently pushing him in more areas of testing when he wasn't getting the first areas rigth (I can see where frustration would be building up inside the Scout at this time), and (4) putting all the responsibility on the Scout. Right from the start they failed him, and they continue to do so. They need to make this right by this Scout, and they need to get at least a glimpse of what the BOR is all about. I'm on troop committee, and I don't hesitate to bring up the BOR issues, even if it might ruffle feathers. Thankfully, this particular troop is open to improvement when it's needed, so we don't run into long-term issues. The key here is this: each SM, asst SM, and committee member is committed to doing what is right by the Scout, and that means evaluating how that is going. Your troop, from what you share on this so far, is not doing that, and I find that disappointing. What's the SM's take on this?

scoutpacific,

I expected to be disappointed in the Girl Scout program due to things I've heard, but our daughter wanted to be a Cub Scout since she could talk and tell us so, and when she was invited to Daisies, we decided to give it a try.

The leader is awesome. She manages to fit a lot into an hour, holds the girls' interests, and enjoys the time herself. In this past month, the Daisies have gone bowling, taken part in a 9-11 memorial dedication (something the older Girl Scouts helped to landscape), had their investiture and rededication ceremony, and learned about water conservation and being honest and fair. They have learned lots of songs and some prayers, and I was surprised at the focus on God, something I'd been led to believe was not a very important component of Girl Scouts. A meeting starts with the Pledge of Allegiance and Girl Scout Promise, some silly songs and a prayer, and then there crafts, stories, practice of ceremonies, snacks (Scouting without food--no such thing ), and fun ways of learning the points of the Girl Scout Law, ending with more songs and recognition of girls. I'm impressed.

The Brownie troop is also very active and big. The Junior troops are smaller and the even older girl (not sure of names) are smaller still. However, all are active, and the service unit overall is very appealing to our family.

Since our daughter is involved, at least one of us will be, and I'm waiting on completion of my background check to be receive the training dates. I've looked into this, and I'm not happy that we'll have to pay so much for required training, but we decided to go for it anyway. Trainings look to all start at $35, and compared to the BSA (in our district, it's mostly free, some sessions costing $5), this is a disappointment to me.

Camping costs here are similar to Cub Scout costs; council is pretty much an unknown to us so far (though I hear that the leaders get a lot of help from council); the costs for the troop is actually low compared to the Cub costs in the area. To me, from all that I've seen so far, I am willing to invest time in this program for the sake of my daughter. I'm sorry you're so disappointed.

If a boy has failed to meet the advancement requirements, then the board is obligated to withhold the rank. But they need to do it properly and in a positive manner such that the boy knows exactly where he went wrong, agrees with the decision, and knows what he needs to do to fix it.

Well said, FScouter.

The idea that even if the BOR is wrong, the Scout should simply be prepared to be retested is somewhat troubling to me, though with all the threads that indicate this happens (testing at BORs) I can see why that would make sense. I guess I just hope that we as adult leaders would be willing to do better than that and instead encourage one another to perform BORs in the correct way. Our troop seems to learn of Scout complaints about BORs through the PLC, and that is passed on the committee, where the committee takes time to review the purpose and together to come up with better ways of making the Scout comfortable (they are so nervous) and of asking better questions without testing. It has been agreed that this can be hard to do, since most are inclined to simply review the book, but easier isn't acceptable--doing what's right by the Scout is the purpose and that does need to be covered every once in awhile.

...but my son does not have a clear and specific knowledge of why he was not approved for advancement or what to do next.

Joe, I'm going to follow up on OGE's post with a paragraph from page 30 of the BSA Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures book:

"If the board decides that the Scout is not ready to advance, the candidate should be informed and told what he has not done satisfactorily. Most Scouts accept responsibility for not completing the requirements properly. The members of the board of review should specify what must be done to rework the candidate's weaknesses and schedule another board of review for him. A follow-up letter must be sent to a Scout who is turned down for rank advancement, confirming the agreements reached on the actions necessary for advancement. Should the Scout disagree with the decision, the appeal procedures should be explained to him."

It seems to me that your son would perfectly within his rights to ask the SM when he will receive his letter so that he may be prepared for the next BOR. Also, if he wasn't given a follow-up date, he should have that now too. The reason I suggest your son follow through is that this gives him ownership of his Scouting goals. I don't read in your post that there was any hostility or mean-spiritedness, so I can only think this is an uneducated group that performed the review. Your son taking the time to learn the process and following through by asking for his letter and follow-up BOR shows that he is taking responsibility and listening to the board.

Good luck to you both. BORs are not intended to upset a Scout but to encourage them to meet their goals while evaluating the program rather than the Scout. Please keep us up to date on how things are resolved.(This message has been edited by bbng)

I'm looking for official word on this, but it is one COR per charter organization. The COR represents the CO, and this is the person who would communicate with the CC and the IH.

No success in my online references, but in case you find this of interest, here's a link with more info on CORs:

http://www.scouting.org/relationships/04-113/index.html(This message has been edited by bbng)

lol Semper. This is not what I'd normally advise, but in this case, where there seems to be significant confusion, I'd advise going to the COR. This would help avoid the "he said-she said" issue that seems to be in play right now.

The other option, something the COR of a unit I served was willing to do, is to ask the COR if s(he) would be willing to meet with parents and leaders. That would cut down on the phone calls

ScoutNut is correct. When a parent comes to you with a complaint, you can tell him/her that they should direct their comments to the COR.

kramr1, I was remiss in not saying welcome to both Cub Scouting and to the forums. Welcome!

I would agree that this is not a Cub Scout issue, but it does effect the program because boys are leaving and families are unhappy. Not only might families continue to leave, but it's hard to recruit new people into a chaotic atmosphere where adults don't get along.

They had 2 pages worth of various violations of pack policy by her.The committee member told me point blank that she will either quit or be fired by our chartered organization rep. It was her choice.

Two pages of violations of pack policies but the den leader is still there. That says to me (and I could be very wrong) that the COR may not be in favor of removing this leader or may not be aware of the problems. Also, saying the leader gets to make a choice on whether to quit or be fired, and fired by one who is not even present, is another red flag. What I see is personality conflicts, possibly a lack of backbone in the adult leadership, and in the meantime a pack needs to serve the boys but is clearly side-tracked because of people's behavior.

Good luck, and my thought would be that this is the time for you to have a talk directly with the COR, and to verify who the CC is and talk with that person as well. You expressed doubt "thinking that this committee member was the CC", so it would be helpful to know for certain. The single most important person--after the boys of course--is the COR.

Put me in the "I'll do my best to use the BSA system but tweak it for our particular needs" camp. By "tweak" I don't mean eliminate boy leadership, eliminate patrols, etc. What I mean is we will do what we have to do to be successful today, while always working toward the ultimate goal - that of fulfilling all the aims and methods of the BSA.

Ok, I did a poor job of saying what I was trying to say. Not all aims and methods will all work all the time as there is growth and goal-setting (as evidenced by the above quote). What I see in this is that the program appears to be evaluated by using the BSA literature. What I personally find troubling is when units decide to blow off the BSA program in favor of their own way of doing things. This is usually evidenced by the units that say they don't need the G2SS because it cramps their style, that plan trips on non-BSA property without filing a local tour permit in order to have a "better trip", that find all training a waste of time. That tends to show up by hearing and seeing youth having fun but not in leadership, not advancing, not very active. I've seen evidence of this, and it's referred to as the camping clubs. The problem there is that there is no effort to follow the program. The leaders adjust the uniform to make it comfortable/affordable for themselves; the youth follow suit. The patrol method is written off because "it doesn't work for us" or "our guys don't know how to lead", and the problem there is the adult leadership isn't training the youth to lead and then letting them succeed and fail. Perfection takes a lot of energy and time, and even with huge amounts of both, it usually isn't reached--and as a perfectionist, I know it's no fun to aim for perfection. But to set goals by using all that BSA has made available makes it easier to run a troop or pack (I've no experience with a crew), and even in doing that, each unit will have it's own personalities which lead to varying ways of seeing Scouting in action. That is one of the things I love about Scouting: seeing youth actively involved in service, leadership, team work, outdoor activities that they have planned, that they have carried out, that they often fail at but that's ok because the adults support them and they get to try again. The outcome, in this type of atmosphere, is that the youth grown into adults of strong character and have fun along the way.

LongHaul, I'm sorry if my post put you on the defense (it seems it may have?), but I know that when I describe the units I'm involved with that are truly Scouting units, it is because they are doing those things I've heard and read in training and the BSA literature.

I'm not sure I can define the Scouting program without using what I've read and used from BSA publications. It is those things that don't fit within the parameters of the program as it is defined that would make a program something other than a Scouting program. There is so much available to help us as Scouters, and that makes Scouting easier for me as an adult leader and more meaningful and fun for the youth as Scouts. What I'm wondering is this: what is wrong with defining the program by using the program literature?

If your son is passionate about Scouting, actively involved, but not happy with his current troop and expressing the desire to move to another one, that may be in his best interests. I am not familiar with the specifics of working through the Eagle qualifications, but someone here will be. Welcome to the forums, and I hope you find the answers you need to support your son in this situation.

The Guide to Safe Scouting contains an Age-Appropriate Guidelines sheet that is helpful for use in planning all activities. Here is the link to the form:

http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/ageguides.pdf