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So, out of curiosity, did the ideals begin to move out of front and center when a choice was made to adjust the program?

Eamonn, good point. Over the past 30 years (boy, do I feel old!), I've seen many good things come of Scouting. However, it's not stats that I use to measure anything. It is what those who were Scouts have said about how it helped them to be where they are today. Good dads, businessmen, and just plain good citizens in general. It seems that the lessons learned don't fade away. In fact, sometimes they just sort of take root, and it is years later that a man looks back and says, "I remember doing this in Scouts and it works today" (or something to that effect). Those who didn't finish Scou

http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/index.html http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-800/index.html The Honor Patrol Award might be helpful too, but I couldn't find the requirements. The way this troop works, patrol leaders gather ideas from their patrols when it's time for the annual planning. Then Green Bar meets to draft a proposed calendar. It is submitted to the SM, who then submits it to the committee for approval (as he says, "I'd like to know I have your backing, that you back the boys' plans"). There is a patrol coach or advisor who is an asst SM for each patr

CNY: you describe a troop I know of. Could it be we both experienced the same troop at one time??? Additionally, the unit leaders have lists of justifications for doing things their way. They have no confidence in the youth's ability to plan an event or even a meeting, and that says two things to me. One, they're not there for the youth. Two, the youth won't have a chance to develop confidence and new skills. Interestingly enough, boys do quit units like this, or they stay but don't advance or even feel part of the unit, so they are more just on paper than part of the unit. These th

Welcome Beavah. FScouter said it well, so rather than reiterate it, I'll simply say ditto

I'd call the SE immediately, let him know what you know, including how things have been discussed and how one boy has been treated. The SE will guide you in what you should do now, and the rest (any investigation) will remain unknown to you. Your part is to call the SE and no one else. If the parents have complaints, there is no reason they can't call the SE too, IMO. That goes for both boys in this situation. I see nothing good coming of staying quiet about this in respect to the SE, and I wish you well as you call the SE. It's not a fun thing to do, but it's very important, and you seem

Thank you KS. I didn't know how the searchers would handle this. Thanks too for the "look for a woman with small children" advice; that makes far more sense than the standard watch out for strangers advice.

I'm sure there will be many lessons--or reinforcements of them at least--as a result of this boy's last week. It sure does highlight the purpose of the buddy system and why it should always be used. The news about the strangers/searchers is disturbing, and perhaps a way to deal with that in the future will come of this. I can't even imagine how tired and frightened he must have been at this point, all alone, waiting for help, but not recognizing it and therefore hiding from it. He strikes me as a smart boy, who handled a scary situation in the best way possible for 11 years old--or older.

A Boy Scout spokesperson, unnamed, has just confirmed that Brennan is alive and well. I'm watching this on Fox News. Still few details, but lots of excitement about the outcome. EDIT: An announcement just given that a press conference will come on sometime, no time given. And someone said he's a Cub, not a Boy Scout, and it's all positive about how he used his Scout training to survive 4 days on his own. AND... FOX NEWS http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160189,00.html FIND BRENNAN SITE http://www.findbrennan.org/ CBS NEWS http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/06/21/na

A volunteer firefighter found him and confirmed to newscasters, just now, that 11-year-old Brennan Hawkins has been found alive. More news is coming in now, and this is such great news, that I thought I'd pass it on. He is being rescued now; apparently he's in a spot tough to reach. I hate missing kid stories, but this one seems to be ending well.

NJCubScouter: I admitted that fraud has happened and that it is wrong. What I will not agree with is that because of one (in this case, Atlanta) council inflating all numbers that all do. The only council I can speak for is the one I am involved in; I know for a fact that every effort is made to keep records accurate. My point is simply that because a unit, district, or council can inflate the numbers does not mean that it will. FScouter, who does it hurt? Personally, I don't care for the numbers game in any organization. The emphasis shouldn't be on numbers. What I find objectionab

Now this is how the BSA can and does manipulate the membership: A council and/or its professional staff will add names to a scout unit in its last month before it renews. I find that comment offensive. Could a council and/or professional staff do this? Sure, but why is the assumption that it is done? There are cases of fraud, and I for one find one case one case too many and make no excuses for it. That does not mean that all councils inflate their numbers. How To Spot a Fake Unit: You list many items that often are discussed right here as a challenge to units.

My sons have a SM who will give time when he has it, and he and his assistants go on campouts with the idea that they are there simply to ensure safety and to be available if their advice/help is sought out. Though they encourage the boys to go to their PLs, they won't turn a boy away without making sure they set a time--soon--to talk.

OGE: I should not have been drinking when I read your response to NJ! I'm thinking remaining blissfully ignorant is not so bad

I agree NJ; you said it much better. A Scouter absolutely should not discuss his/her sexuality, and particularly with a youth. I guess our primary role is to be caring and responsible adults who are willing to listen and to be honest in how we respond (ie if we don't know, are uncomfortable discussing something, or think it's better that someone else do so--we should say so). I think we agree on this way of approaching this issue?

What a long and unending thread, so I may as well jump in too NJCub wrote: I find this interesting, because I have never seen a Scouter discuss this issue in front of, or with, any boy. I have on occasion happened to overhear or have participated in conversations about this subject with other leaders. That is very good, for I have been appalled to hear Scouters not only talk about gays in a hostile way, but also to do so in front of the youth. The youth modeled the talk, and it sure made for a most unpleasant atmosphere. I am not opposed to the policy as it is now; I do, however,

You are correct; it is simply: While a First Class Scout, take part in service projects totaling at least 6 hours of work. These projects must be approved by your Scoutmaster. As I read it, there are two clear reqts: (1) a time reqt of a minimum of 6 hours, and (2) that they are approved by the SM prior to carrying out the projects. I look forward to how others reply, but it seems that the SM does have a say due to his approving projects ahead of time.

I've been there, though with Cubs, and here's what I did. I listened very carefully to the leaders, particularly the den leaders, and asked questions to get a feel for what the concerns were. Then, at home, after each meeting, I took out several BSA books, looking up the subject of concern in each one. I simply copied those items, sent them to the CM, and after he and I spoke, then forwarded it to the rest of the unit leadership with encouragement to "let's try this next month". Not ONCE did following what was in the BSA books fail the unit. Was it a headache to read the books? For me, n

I'm afraid I may not be much help, but here's my experience. First, where it didn't work: registered leaders were using poor language and making inappropriate remarks (sexist, racist), and I went face to face to those who were and asked them to please watch what they said around my son and the boys. I was laughed at. I countered with "we're all leaders here and adults, and though you find this funny, I think we should hold ourselves and one another accountable to the Scout Oath and Law." I was laughed at even harder, and some rude things were said. My point here: some people won't change.

This info would answer your question though; you sure can keep someone from going camping without an updated form. I'd use this one sentence in Class One: "Forms must be updated annually." Therefore, a youth or adult with no health form on record needs to submit one prior to the next campout/outing. A youth or adult with an outdated form needs to submit one prior the next campout/outing. I personally would have no problem with this, and I've found that BSA camps actually require a current medical history on every person attending camp--or they may not attend. That's in 4 differen

I think that the Quality Unit award is a farce. Every unit in our district last year earned the Quality Unit award. When I asked why the Troop had received the award, as I did not think we had meet the requirements he remarked, Well, we didnt but they give it to us every year anyway. The problem is not the award; it is the away the award has been handled by some, certainly not all. I know of units that have worked hard to earn QU; I know of units that are active and fun and close but fail to meet it for a particular year and don't fudge the forms; I know of units that are loosing kid

The G2SS mentions health forms or "proof of fitness or good health" in several places. This may be the most beneficial part to answer your questions: Class 1: Includes any event that does not exceed 72 consecutive hours, where the level of activity is similar to that normally expended at home or at school, and where medical care is readily available. Examples: day camp, day hike, swimming party, or an overnight camp. Medical information required is a current health history signed by parents or guardian. The health history form currently found on the back of the BSA individual applica

I used to automatically give the benefit of the doubt to a Scout leader who was breaking, bending, manipulating, or totally disregarding a rule, policy, method. However, in my own experience, I have learned that those who think it's ok to cut corners or pick and choose what to follow will do so in the big areas (yes, YP and safety) as well as the so-called little areas (socks--have to chuckle at how often those socks have been mentioned). Perfection is not the goal; setting the best possible example is. Using the BSA materials, this actually doesn't seem all that hard to do. >>>edi

Oak Tree, I'm not sure if you're a leader or not, but I am both parent and leader. As a parent, I want my children to understand that they are part of a membership organization, and therefore, they either follow its rules, or if they decide they don't agree with them (whether it's in respect to uniforms, advancement, or any other method), then they are free to leave the organization. As for the speed limit, my children don't understand why I bother to follow it. They say, "but look how fast everyone else is going". My reply? I have a driver's license, it is a privilege that may be revoked

Bob askes some good questions, though the title threw me. In a recent post a scouter bragged on how he knowingly wears an incorrect uniform because it pleases him personally. No other poster said a word about it, even though the writer admitted it was against a BSA rule. A minor rule I agree, but a rule nonetheless. I wonder if he expects the scouts to follow ALL the troop rules, or just the big ones...or just the ones that don't cause the scout personal inconvenience? Can the scout in the troop ignore rules for "sentimental reasons"? I don't think I saw that post, but it could