Old_OX_Eagle83

I've had one since Nov, I love it. The fit is odd, as posted above, I had to go down a size. I've put it through the rigors. The jacket has been showered in campfire embers, soaked with snow and freezing rain, baptized in of hot chocolate, and has been used for a pillow on a few occasions.

Sewing all the goodies from my retired red wool was a snap, the material is supple, and a bit of a tighter weave. Its comfy, and shows no indication of shrinkage.

So far so good

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The regs say the same rules apply to the green, as the red. I have my bull on the left shoulder (tail over the seam), TC patch on right pocket, 6 in from NOAC on back. I also have a vintage 1950 ADC patch on the left shoulder, this is against policy, but youll only get call on it at WB.

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Look, the whole point in the program is growth, learning. Its ok for the boys to drop the ball, and if you make things right they will not learn. Frankly, if you step in and run the event, it will not impress anyone. Your role is to guide, nurture, and encourage, the youth leadership through the chain of command.

I have two pieces of advice: 1. Let the event happen as the youth planned, and make it a learning experience to be used at the next PLC. 2. Do not get involved in the selection of the boy leadership. Scouts learn from falling on their faces, but never enjoy it. The scouts will look at things differently at the next election.

You are the Scoutmaster, an advisor, those young men are the "leaders", never loose sight of this.

Eamonn, you have a perfect handle on what a young man wants, and few of us who are not so young. You are exactly correct, but there Is one thing I will add. Since 1910 vocations have changed, and a big part of merit badges is to sample vocational skills, and these are largely academic today. In my mind the core program should be active, and outdoors, but there must be academic components as well.

Our goal is well rounded, solid citizens, with deep rooted values, polished leadership skills, and a vision of the future. Video games lend little, or nothing, to these goals, but study and education are a necessity. Truth and Knowledge are obtained by academic pursuit.

Uniforms are by design uniform.

Kneesocks ...

Technically no issue-no policy violation. Actually, this situation isnt uncommon. This could either be a blessing or curse. Communication is easy, but a lions share of the work falls on one family, potentially leading to burn out. The biggest danger is that this arrangement could prevent the committee from functioning correctly. My two cents is this isnt an optimal arrangement.

Stosh, I was working my way through this thread and read your 3/22 post about the full uniform, and the salute. Do you have a source for this? Now I'm not asking because I doubt you, I'm asking because I like it, and want to implement it. A source I can site will make this easier to explain to others.

For cubs I can see the half uniform, but not for boy scouts. If a family has difficulty, help can be provided. Half a uniform is half a$$ed scouting. the uniform is a program tool, an important one.

I go back to the 70s and came from a CO that did a uniform exchange, so Ive been exposed to even older uniforms. Ill be shot for saying this, but Im a firm believer in wearing the uniform in the field, and have found the centennial the best suited to this. Im not talking about the supplex, that stuff is not scout friendly, briars, sparks, and rough rocks destroy it. I like the canvas/cotton, but wish there was a functional light wool blend. My only gripes about eh centennial are the electronics pocket, and the Elvis collar.

I spent a lot of time in the Oscar DeLarenta uniforms, not very field friendly. The uniform always made me feel like I should be a Back to the Future movie. During the 80s it was cool, except for that beret, but felt dated quickly. The older greens were much the same way, but a bit more timeless, except the collarless ones. Who wants to wear a neckerchief when its a 100 degrees!

Im not sure if it was the color, or what, but Ive always liked the 60s/70s Explorer shirts. The spruce green snap up Venture shirts do not fill that void bring em back for Venturing supply, please

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I thought this was a thread about George Bush. Jimmy Carter the worst President, I cant agree. The situation, and climate, of his presidency were very difficult, and his performance, under those circumstances, was very good/ Presidency aside, this man is a genius, humanitarian, and brilliant scholar. I can only say I strongly disagree with your treatment of President Carter.

We're talking about a personal choice. This isn't my cup of tea, but how can I justify judging another on his/her personal choices. Choices that impact me, or mine, are my business, others are not ... it's just that simple.

No the end does not justify the means. Were discussing horrific behavior, acts that are violations of National, and International Law. Scoutings timeless values do not include torture, inhumane acts, and human degradation. These is a criminal justice system designed to deal with people like this, let the system do its job. Ill speed better at night knowing these atrocities have been put to a stop. If we allow someone to be treated this way, we open the door for anyone to be treated this way.

The Case Peanut is a good first knife. The serration stuff is horrible in my opinion, stay away from knives with serration, or plastic construction.(This message has been edited by Old_OX_Eagle83)

packsaddle, sorry about the mix up. Flavor-Aid grape is better anyway

Paddlesack, they realize they have to have control of the program the market it, and in handing that type of control over some crazy could go off the ranch. Constant temptation, tempered by fear of what the image of BSA could become.

Lots of folks here are talking about the BSA DRP. When you talk about the DRP, keep the following in mind:

The DRP does not require nor forbid a belief in a Supreme Being.

The DRP does not talk about being a 1st class or 2nd class citizen, it talks about the quality of citizenship a member can obtain.

The BSA does not define what constitutes belief in God or the practice of religion.*

The BSA does not require membership in a religious organization or association for enrollment in the movement but does prefer, and strongly encourages, membership and participation in the religious programs and activities of a church, synagogue, or other religious association.*

The BSA respects the convictions of those who exercise their constitutional freedom to practice religion as individuals without formal membership in organized religious organizations. Scouting believes in the right of all to worship God in their own way.*

Throughout life Scouts are associated with people of different faiths. Scouts believe in religious freedom, respecting others whose religion may differ from theirs.*

(*indicates this is taken from further notes on the DRP in the BSA Advancement Policies and Procedures Committee Guide)

BadenP, you misunderstand what Im saying. Im talking application of the policy to a scout, a minor, by assumption. Eighteen-year-olds doing Eagle BOR, is another topic, but is the exception, not the rule. Im not at cross purposes with you, and largely agree with your point of view, but for the time being, things are what they are. I to do Eagle Boards, both on the unit, and district levels, and agree, this does not come up.

In as far as the scouts beliefs counting, they can, but you have to look at how I worded things. If the scout is not reverent, thats a big issue. If the scout refuses to take the oath, and says he is not living by the oath, that is a problem. A scout saying he does not believe in god, is no issue at all.

In the case on point, our scouts parents attested his beliefs, and are clearly continuing his education in that area. Our scout is attending worship, and going through the practice of the faith of his family. There has been no mention of disrespect of god, or toward others beliefs, or his parents. This combination meets current policy expectations, in as far as no action is possible.

Dont get me wrong, this scout could be manipulated into a misstep with ease, but is that what should be done? Hes walking a razors edge, and may, or may not, know it. In this situation the clear choice is help this young man, or more to the point, let his family know he needs help. This can be done with clear conscience, as nothing inappropriate has happened here.

Ive been in, or involved with, scouting since 1974, and have seen many different attitudes on this topic. Ive also seen many different CO/unit policies. In the end, we must ask what is best for this scout, looking at things from his point of view, and be there for him. Do I think scouting is changing in its attitudes, yes. Do I think BSA would love to lob this ball into the COs court, and be done with it, oh yea.

What do I think needs done? A shift away from scouting looking at practice of religion; replacing this with a focus on spiritual growth. BSA needs to paint with broad flexible, strokes, instilling timeless values, solid morals, respect for all people, and building solid leaders, from all backgrounds, to lead us into the future.

This is my opinion, and Im sure there are many other valid opinions of where we should go in the future, please take it as what it is.

if were going to focus on application of the policy you have to understand how its implemented. The Scout is neither asked to, nor allowed to, fill out his application for membership, including the attestation. Many of you may not like this, but what that scout says he believes doesnt matter one whit. What matters is what the parents say the scout will believe. Until the scout is an adult, this is not his choice, and we cannot question the progress of this religious education, only the intent. The intent is questioned in the application.

What about the Oath and Law.? Yes, the scouts adherence to the Oath and Law can be questioned. However, keep in mind Ill do my best to do my duty to God and Country . Ill do my best is the standard. Who says if the scout did his best? The person responsible for his spiritual guidance answers this question, through the parents, not you or me. We, as scout leaders, set the expectation of reverence, and promote spiritual growth, and support practice of the scouts faith.

Reverence, not only should be expect the scout to meet this standard, but we must hold ourselves to the same standard.

A Scout is Reverent.

A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

The point Im making is that BSA policy has not been violated. Remove emotion, personal bias, and put your own beliefs aside, and look at the facts. The attestation is a parental item; the oath is a do my best item; and reverence is behavior based, not faith based.

I never looked at this situation as being about policy, as policy has not been violated.

Theres a third course, the one Id take. Schedule a sit down with the SM, COR, and AC, explain the situation, and that fact that you cannot in good faith sign off on the project, as the scout has not met the required standards. Explain that you want to discuss this with the committee before discussing the issue with the scout, to be sure everyone was on the same page. Recommend giving the scout a period of time to successfully complete the requirements, and as a group handle this at the next committee meeting, with the scout, and his parents. Id send a letter to the District AC explaining the units rejection of the project, have the COR counter sign it.

Eagle is a big deal, and must be earned, do your best to allow the scout to earn Eagle. If the scout fails to put forth the effort, its on him. Be sure he gets the direction on how to correct his short falls, and has an assigned advisor, who is not his father.

Beavah, I can only tell you how I see things. BSA and CO policy are controlling, but the committee, and/or SM, could choose a tougher standard, but not a lesser one. You do bring up a good point. How would I know?

Heres the grey area, and also what makes this work in reality. If the adult smells of alcohol, demonstrates impaired motor skills, or his behavior is clearly impacted, no dice. In other words, if I can tell he has been drinking, he s not going anywhere near scouts. The second part is a simple one, any leader talking about drinking around scouts will be told to stop or leave.

What Im talking about is a unit activity, camp staff would be a bit different as there are days and nights off. Camp policy deals with these matters to be sure.

The key, as I see it, is to get your adults on a page with you. Make everyone aware of what the rules are, and that these rules are established to protect the scouts. Id end the discussion with There are no warnings, or second chances when it comes to violating any rule that is designed to protect the scouts.

I'm taking WB this fall. I've put it off, for one reason, or another for 25 years. I resisted all that pushing, and propaganda, waiting until it was something I wanted to do. Serving 25 years as a scouter before attending WB is pretty extreme, I dont necessarily suggest that, but Ive been busy 

Im more mature, and experienced now. I hope to not only get a lot from the training, but give back, by being a good patrol member. I have an idea what WB is now, I think, and hope it will temper me as a scouter.

How to do that really cool dance while singing Bear Necessities! Kidding aside, it was appropriate material for the target audience. Although Id like to have a get out of training free card, as an Eagle Scout, I understand why that cannot be done. Once the trainer saw that tell tale red, white, and blue knot I made the volunteer for everything, and but of all jokes, lol.

It was actually fun, and I could see these leaders absorbing the material, and the gears turning on how they were going to teach the cubs. If it fell short it was in not being overnight, but owls covers that well.

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Welcome back brother! Scouting needs strong leaders like you. I'm Eagle class of 1983, it's always good to meet a fellow Eagle Scout.

Welcome, and thank you for taking the time to be a scout leader. I hope your son has a wonderful year, and future in scouting.