Old_OX_Eagle83

As an Eagle the greatest frustration comes from having a body that is bound to this earth, and a spirit that desires to ride the thermals to heights only imagined. I can only imagine the joy John now knows, as he is free of the bonds of this earth, as may soar to the very heavens.

I'm not sure where I weigh in on a test out, but I like acco40's thought s on how to make IOLS a quality program. I've been told be a few ASM's that they didn't get much out of the program, and it was poorly ran. I've just gotten used to re-training my ASM's, maybe I should use that same time to help fix our local ILST program and more peeps could benefit. Our program has been put on who those who will, not those who know the skills. Food for thought.

Thanks for all the great ideas, and the support. Sometimes I think I'm just to tough, apparently not. I like the idea of providing ingredients on a table and letting the patrols figure out what can be made from them. I really love the competition and award ideas, like we did in Wood Badge.

BTW, typically the adult leaders, adult guests, plus SPL & ASPL (if not gusting with a patrol) cook and camp as a working patrol. We're an old troop, and this tradition goes back about 75 years, the concept is to function as a model patrol. We try to showcase various cooking methods, and dishes.

Acco40, as a SM, I can only say you're 100% on target. Kids are open and ready to learn, parents know everything.

Here's a few observations after reading this thread:

1. Leave all the Cub Scout baggage at the door, the Boy Scout program in no way resembles the cub program, other then sharing the word "scout".

2. Parents and grandparents working with a scout on merit badge requirements ... video taping MB requirements to avoid work with approved MB counselors ... Yea, if I were the SM there we would have problems. There is a way things are done in Boy Scouts, and a reason why they are done that way(learn both). You state you're an ASM, what training have you had? Any MB work starts with the SM assigning an approved MB counselor. Please see number one.

3. Burn out, I'd be slow to apply that label. However, I'd be quick to say frustration is a factor, and quite likely with a few key parents who are making it difficult to run things correctly.

4. Five or six years is not a short time to do a unpaid volunteer job that likely takes as much time as his paid job.

5. A SM being gruff with a scout could be intentional, and isn't remotely a new thing. In fact, that may have been intentional, and likely had a point.

6. The SM said crap, and that's an issue? Are you kidding me, so what.

7. Give the SM the respect he deserves for his service, and get to know him before you judge him.

7. Stop being a problem, and join the SM in supporting the program.

8. Did I say get trained? After training all of this will begin to make sense.

If I've been gruff with you be assured there was a purpose behind it, to drive home a point. Often you have to get someones attention when they are overlooking the obvious, after being pointed out in way's that make you feel warm and fuzzy.

I used to be a bear

The cooking contest sounds like a great idea.

Actually, I'm inclined to agree with the NRA. One armed guard could have prevented the Sandyhook incident.

A wise many once said "An armed society is a polite society".

Ok, I know what IOLS is, but this sounds like I missed some significant change. What is the IOLS test you guys are talking about. Before anyone suggests it, I did read the thread and still am not clear on what's being discussed here. I did my training some 25 years ago, but thought I had kept up on changed via my fellow leaders.

I'm at my wits end, and am looking for some sage advice. I'm the scoutmaster of a troop of three patrols, 36 scouts in total. All attempts to move thescouts beyond hamburgers, hot dogs, tacos, and spaghetti, have failed due to several picky eaters.

We're a true boy led troop, so mostly this is on the patrols. However, I do require all menus consist of appropriate portions, and correctly represent the food groups.The Patrol Grubmaster is required to get the SPL's approval for his patrol's menu, and and as I advise the SPL I'm aware of what the menus consist of. For some while the patrol leaders have been grumbling about this issue.

Rarely do we cook and eat as a troop, but this weekend the scouts going on an afternoon/evening snow tubing event, with troop elections and a lockin afterwards. My intent had been to stay back and fix a big pot of chilli so they would not only have warm food ready, but not have to spend time on food prep. However, in discussing this surprize with my ASM of new scouts I was surprized to hear "none of the young scouts will eat that"; at which point I changed gears and suggested stew, or homemade veggie soup, and get the same frustrating response. The counter suggestion I got was "order pizza" after the steam quit rolling out of my ears, and a string of sounds more often associated with a grizzly, I pointed out the Cub Scouts meet on Tuesdays.

This weekend's dinner isn't the actual issue, it just made the severity of this issue clear to me. Before further let me say this issue is worse with the young scouts, but not exclusive to the first year guys, the two venture patrols are nearly as bad.

My knee jerk reaction was that we need to embrace true camp cooking, and expand our culinary skills, ptickiness be damned. However, I know I'm a bit old school, and a lot tougher than some of my fellow leaders and parents. Has anyone here faced this issue before, and if so how did you overcome it?

Sincerely,

Frustrated Scoutmaster

I used to be a Bear

You have a difficult situation here, and have spent a mutch time pondering whether, or not, the technicalities will let you diapprove this application.

However, what I've not heard you talk about is the scout hinself. Has young man has learned the lessons behind the advancement proccess: Can this scout plan and lead a project, overcoming obsticles? Does this young man know how to build and motive a team leading them to a set goal? Does this scout demonstrate scout spirit, doing his best to live by the Scout Oath, Law, Motto, Slogan, and Outdoor Code? What kind of citizen is this scout; what kind of friend to his brother scouts? Can this would-be Eagle Scout walk the walk?

Yes, you could decline to sign the app, but that could also be appealed. What I would be asking is "should I approve this application, and if not what is my purpose?"

As a scoutmaster I've faced the same situation, and it looks like I will again. Honestly, letting things get this far, knowing these issues exist, should not happen. However, we live in the real world, and here we are. I can't tell you what you should do, but I will say, don't pass the buck, not to District, not to your COR, not to your DE.

Consider what scouting has done for this young man,consider what kind of scout he is, and what kind of man he is becoming, and do what you think is best. Also, we aware of the overall impact of what you do, the impact on the other scouts, charter org support, and your fellow leaders. This is no small thing, either way.

I read this once, had a knee jerk reaction. However, I've learned to never follow these reactions, so after a third read of the thread, I think there is merit to this idea. I'm not saying I'm sold on the concept, but many elements of this make a great deal of sense, and mirror the very closeness I've been trying to foster between, pack, troop, and crew at our charter org. This is very good food for thought.

Check .... working as intended, responsnsible citizens prepared to face whatever comes in training. Everyday hero's in blue and gold in every home

That young man needs recognized, and put forward as an exanple of a scout. Let the media see a little reality.

Boy Scouts did not start with Districts, Councils, and Professionals; in fact Boy Scouts didn't care who did, or didn't, recognize the organization. Boy Scouts ws started by boys, looking for adventure and personal growth.

BSA no longer exists on some piece of paper, so what? We have less support, but we stay the course. Without hesitation I would continue guiding my troop, meeting each Monday, holding a monthly PLC, 2 outings a month, training leaders, and serving my community with my fellow scouts.

I don't have the legs for a kilt.

The OA experience is intended to have an introspective element, designed to facilitate personal growth. In part learning the "customs and traditions" of the Order of the Arrow facilitates that growth. In my opinion the program has been streamlined, and simplified, with everything becoming a checklist ... and that is counter to the order's intended methods, and purpose. Brotherhood membership has a perfect example of the departure from the orders "deep" element.

We need not change any requirements to correct this, just change our approach to how we deliver our material, test our candidates, and how we honor those who embrace the full experience offered b y the order.

I tied my tounge in a knot trying to say that ...

For various reasons I put off Wood Badge for over twenty years, and wondered what I would actually get from it. The bottom line is I'm not accomplishing anything new, or extra, but I'm getting the job done with 25% of the effort it took before Wood Badge. By the way, Wood Badge is the most fun I had in scouts since I was a youth!

I used to be a Bear ...

I wear mine from time to time, partly to remember my grand adventures, and partly so scouts will ask about Philmont. I strive to not look like a general in full dress uniform, but beleive some insignia can insire youth to explore new program offerings.

Silver on the sage ...

UoS is fun, but I think there's need here that needs to be filled by a uniformly presented, structured, training course.

National is quite selective of what founding fathers, and key figures from scoutings history, they put on display these days. Not only has William Hillcourt's influance on the growing organization been downplayed, but Seaton is being swept under the rug, and Dan Beard trivilized. Without Beard and Seaton scouting would be of thing of the classroom, not the outdoors.

The statue is art, classic greek renaissance. I rather like it to be honest. The stype is quite in keeping with other Washington art: have you ever looked the cieling of the capital building's entry hall?

I don't like BSA forming a close relationship with AHG. I can't help it, AHG just feels wrong, like Stepford scouts ...

I'm reminded of how writers described the Hitler Youth.(This message has been edited by Old_OX_Eagle83)

I just ran into one of these, I thought it would be fun to set up with the explorer insignia I had on my shirt 25 years ago. I'm going to use this specifically for 80's day our camp is having to celebrate it's 25th anniversary. I suppose this falls under historic display and should be fine for that day's festivities; what do you guys think?

Afterward I use the idea posted above and add a venture strip and change insignia to my venture crew.

structuralrik,You didn't do what I asked.

The intent, and purpose, of a rule is extremely important in understanding its application. The U.S. founding fathers so firmly believed this that they created the Supreme Count to interpret the Constitution, a much for abbreviated body of rules then those BSA operates under ...

In brief, let me lead you through this:

- No secret organizations. It may shock you to lean the OA is not, and never was a secret organization. Therefore lets remove this from the discussion entirely.

- Parents attending inductions: Let me borrow what another posted it this, as it's an abbreviated restatement of the cometary from The National Committee.

"The only valid reason parents should have to attend is they have issues/concerns. This can be addressed by having a conversation with them, perhaps showing them the ritual. If its not enough, then NOTHING prevents them from attending."

The purpose of the rule is to overcome real issues and concerns the parents may have. Looking at the purpose, and intent, of this rule it become clear that first off the only non-members who are ever allowed to attend are parents or guardians. The second thing that become clear is that parents may only attend when this is a legitimate issue or concern. Hmm, in reading every post on this topic, in this thread, and the several others, I don't recall anyone saying they wanted to attend due to a legitimate concern or issue.

The intent of this rule was to deal with legitimate issues and concerns, but it was also to safeguard the induction ceremonies, so that the special feelings of accomplishing something on their own, and being accepted into a select brotherhood, key elements of the OA induction, are maintained.

You may ask am I opposed to parents attending inductions? The answer is no, not when there is a legitimate concern or issue, and not even when there isn't, if they remain outside the circle of members, don't use flash photography, remain silent, and in no way disrupt the solemn, and dignified,tone of the event. Parents should not clap, or cheer, and should never enter the circle of members, simply waiting outside the circle for their child.

Am I apposed to anyone other than a member, or parent/guardian attending, absolutely! There is no legitimate purpose, or provision, for anyone other than a member, or parent/guardian to allowed to attend an induction ceremony.

I hope this better explains my prior comments.

Hmm, I'm reading a lot about opinions on this rule ... who has read it, and it's latest interpretation? Take a look, by no means are lodges required to permit parents to attend their child's induction ceremony. Why fight non-member attendance, simple, the illusion of mystery, and the feeling of acceptance into an elite organization are key parts of why the Order of the Arrow appeals to scouts. We talk about the decline in interest, involvement, and and the role of the order ... is there a correlation between these things and non-members attending ceremonies, and everything being out in the open, you bet ... compare the timelines. Lets get back to where things started, and fix this program.

Klamachpin Gentgeen

I used to be a Bear ...

With all due respect this is just silly. Dr. Goodman, the Order of the Arrow's founder saw no conflict. Dr. Goodman served many a year as a church youth leader, and lay minister. this whole concept is like saying Cub Scouts ranks and symbolism are based on animals, so the organization is practicing shamanism, and goes against my christian beliefs. This is an extreme over reaction to a whole lot of nothing.