Old_OX_Eagle83

Eagle Dad you're correct, this discussion is getting way off base. This question is what should a SM do about a scout he said he does not believe in God during a SM conference for the Scout rank.

Where things have gotten confusing is how to measure/judge these actions. The answer is actually in the questions.

A Scout is Reverent.

A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

Yes, this scout is reverent. Read the words, tempered by the Oaths wording that Ill do my best.

. . . To do my duty to God . . .

Your family and religious leaders teach you about God and the ways you can serve. You do your duty to God by following the wisdom of those teachings every day and by respecting and defending the rights of others to practice their own beliefs.

Yes, this scout is doing his duty to God. Read the words, tempered by the Oaths wording that Ill do my best.

The other questions.

-Is this scout having some type of crisis? Yes

-Does this scout need guidance? Yes

-Is this youth learning, and growing? Yes

-Is it the SMs place to council, or guide the scout regarding matters of faith? No

-Do the scouts parents need to be aware of this conservation? Absolutely

-Who will guide this scout? Thats up to the parents. We are scout leaders, not parents.

-Is it the place of the SM to judge in the scout in his religious beliefs? Absolutely not.

The distinction I'd make is a simple one. No one is to come to, and certainly not drive to/from, any scouting activity after consuming an alcoholic beverage. Not only are we charged with the safety, but also the guidance, of the scouts. What example we set, the scouts will follow. Set the adults straight, tell them dry on events, or find somewhere else to go.

Drinking before an event is not okay. Drinking at an event, even if away from scouts, is a one strike and youre out in my book. Drinking after a scout event, is just that, after an event .

I wonder what this group will have to say on May 22, or do they plan of drinking Kool-Aid, Jim Jones style?

This remains a good read, with lots of interesting input. However, things are getting a little heated, lets stay friendly, and remember we are all on the same team here. The issue has been over complicated by loosing focus. Ultimately, the question is, whats best for this young scout, and how can the Scoutmaster best deal with this situation. In the long run the young man will be making decisions about faith, and practices, but at this time those choices are made by his parents. This program is designed to foster citizenship, and install values the program cant help a boy who is no longer a part of it.

Satashi, scouting is filled with Parent-Child moments, but just like a patrol activity, this isn't one of them.

The dignity, solemnity, and tone required to make the ordeal ceremony a deeply meaningful moment of transformation is quite difficult to create. I recall my sash being lifted from the huge wooden arrow we hung them on for ceremony, I heard the cloth slide across the wood, the fire pop, the crickets sing, and nothing more. Thirty years later I recall that exact moment with such detail, because of its careful crafting.

In the shadows of the many venerable trees surrounding the lodge ring, sat my new brothers, silently, but I could feel them there, welcoming, inviting, encouraging. The movements of each of the ceremonialists, no matter how small, and profound had meaning to me. The sparks from our council fire drifted skyward, reminiscent of fireworks, as the voice of the Mighty Chief boomed out in the ancient ritual words of welcome, echoing from the walls the neatly silent waterfall, whispering its song, just out of view behind him. What a magical moment, one intended to bond me to my brothers, in a way I would remember all the days of my life it worked.

Did I want my mother or father there, no, not a chance. This was about me completing a great ordeal, a task I had undertaken, and completed on my own. Just think how a parents presence, or any non-members, could have changed my view of that event. My experience, its impact, would assuredly have been altered. This isnt about the parent, its about the scout. I know its hard to let go, but they must become men, good ones we hope. To grow a youth needs space, self esteem, earned respect, and a sense of worth I got all of those things that chill October night.

If there needs to be a Parent-Child moment, let the parents greet the scout at the cracker barrel, a photo op could even be set up there.

Welcome Paul, and thank you for your service. I hope having this resource available will help you get back into the groove.

The statement makes me feel good, and bad. Good because we're doing a very good thing here, and bad because we are not reaching enough youth.

BadenP, it's good to see a minister weigh in here. Your wisdom is what's needed. Lets help this scout, and others like him. Turning away from his need is the wrong thing to do, regardless of your own belief system.

Please keep in mind this is a BSA discussion. BSA only required a belief in God, not a specific one. There are many belief systems, BSA is not trying to say one is correct, that is the place of the parent and/or religious leader of the youth in question ... never our role.

This thread is a good read. lrsap, if you get the chance can you post how things are going from time to time? I think it would be quite educational. I've work many hats, but never the SM one, so I just reading and learning Good luck with the new troop.

Cool.

My son is wanting to find out more about his history. I don't think we have an ancestor on the Dawes Roll, but he wants to find out about his Cherokee roots. He is currently making his own warbonnet. He doesn't have the patience for the fine bead-work. Now that he has been awarded the Vigil, he will likely redo his breast plate. The arrow is incorporated into the center strip with pony beads.

jet526

Give your son my congratulations, the Vigil Honor is quite a mark of recognition, I can only imagine youre one proud papa about now. Honestly, being given the Vigil Honor meant more to me than earning Eagle Scout. Before anyone gets upset, Im not taking a thing away from Eagle, it is a monumental accomplishment, and statement of a young mans quality. Let me explain the distinction Im making.

I was inducted into the order in the old days, when each unit was given a limited quota, and was deeply honored that my fellow scouts put me forward for membership, It said something to me words could never express. Just as non-members choose who shall be admitted to the order, it is your lodge brothers who give you the Vigil Honor. Neither membership in the Order, nor the Vigil Honor can be earned, and seeking either will make it quite elusive. The Vigil is a mark of recognition, and nod, from those who have devoted themselves to a life of cheerful service, that the Arrowman in question, by his/her unselfish actions, and devotion, stands out, sets a standard, and is worthy of esteem from this august group. Jet be proud of your son, and yourself, for his upbringing.

My blood is Choctaw, so its the Armstrong Roll Im looking at. I know the names to prove the link, Its the supporting records Im wrestling with. As far as a Cherokee relative, Id look carefully at that. Theres nothing wrong with the fine Cherokee people, dont get me wrong, its just that in frontier days people generalized, calling all native relatives Cherokee, as Cherokee were seen as the most civilized native people of this region. Be proud of your native blood, in this day there is much we can learn from our ancestors, their teachings will help us learn how to live in harmony with our environment.

If your also interested in the revolution, heres a link to information about Captain Nicholas Cardinal, of whom Im a direct descendant.

Ive said quite a bit on this topic, but heres the non-biased, simple truth. Thank you for your wisdom emb021

Sadly, it seems that SOME don't get it that 'discouraging parents from attending' ==/== 'not allowing parents from attending'.

AFAIK, *NO ONE* said or advocated not allowing parents from attending. The rules say that parents can attend if they so choose. And NO ONE is arguing it doesn't.

But, the reason that peopld try to convience them not to by having a conversation or the like should not be seen as an issue or violation of this.

The only valid reason parents should have to attend is they have issues/concerns. This can be addressed by having a conversation with them, prehaps showing them the ritual. If its not enought, then NOTHING prevents them from attending.

Parents should NOT be attending because they think they should, thinking its the equivalent of attending their COH or the like (again, hence the conversation).

And, as has been noted, its JUST the parents. NOT the scouts assorted siblings, cousins, grandparents, aunts/uncles et al. This is NOT a family affair.

Thanks for the kind words jet526. I understand, and agree with your on the faux sashes. What I bead is a representation of the current sash, and am in large part beading a new one so that it will not display the legend, as I no longer have a reason to have it on my sash.

For me the OA/Native American Lore, and history connection has a special meaning. My involvement in my lodge dance team, and ceremony team, caused me to discover my own Native American heritage, and unexpectedly my familys history in the region, including our roles in founding several cities, service in Colonial Militias, and service in the Continental Army under Colonel Clark (George Rogers Clark). None of this would have came about without the OA AIA activities. The OA, as part of scouting, encourages us to explore new interests, history, and art. Beadwork, regalia, and lore peak interest in learning more about the native people of this land.

Ive not been back on the site for a bit, sorry If Ive not responded. Im not sure if any of the less than polite comments are directed at me, if so, sorry if I offended anyone. I was incorrect in policy on the point of beading, and do appreciate that being pointed out, as I dont want to misinform anyone, ever.

In as far as rebellion, and disobeying uniform policy, as set out in the insignia guide, that is personal choice. Dr. Goodman wore a beaded sash until his death in 1981, I cant see when he first started wearing one, but I know he did as early as the 50s, the point is this was not a big deal to him. I dont see the harm in a beaded sash, I own one, and am making another. Sometimes policies are put in place that are just silly; this is one, in my opinion. Im not saying put whatever you like on your sash, far from it. I understand the intent behind the high contract uniform device of the order.

The beaded sash I have was made as a youth in 1985, it is made of check glass, milky chalk white background, and transparent check glass for the other parts. This sash does have the legend, my own version. The sash was designed for a dual purpose. The part I played in ceremonies involved the legend, it was a prop. I was the lodges dance team chief for several years, and this often cast me as MC of the team, and the beaded sash went well with my regalia, when I was not dancing. The transparent glass, in the light of a fire, comes to life. The new sash Im making will be beaded in a traditional way, lazy stitch on leather, with traditional greasy colors, and no legend.

I doubt Ill wear either sash much. I see beaded sashs as art, an expression of devotion to the order, and a tribute to our native ancestors. Why not wear a beaded sash all the time? This is a no brainer, its heavy, fragile, and made more special if reserved for special occasions.

This is all my opinion, not policy. For my part, yea, Ill wear a beaded sash from time to time, even knowing it violates policy. Ill also continue, as Ive now started, to get this policy changed, as it, in my opinion, discourages good things, for no good purpose. Maybe Im just getting old and crotchety, lol. I was taped out by a Lodge Chief in a beaded sash 30 years ago this summer. I was given my ordeal sash by a Lodge Chief wearing a beaded sash handed down chief to chief for fifty years. I was given my vigil by a vigil chief wearing my lodges traditional beaded vigil totem, 26 years ago, I wear that same beaded totem from time to time.

Native American lore is a part of this order, is it to go the way of outdoor program, and be removed? Not on my watch

This is all good, no down side, I fail to see how anyone is against the new trained leadership to recharter requirement. I can only assume those who opposed this change are the type who so strongly oppose change that they have to be made to flip the desk calendar to the next day. Change is the only constant

Sax, take a deep breath, and release it slowly. Youre way to wound up over this. Yea, Ive seen this, its old school spousal recognition, and in my opinion, a good idea. Wood beads as recognition is not unique to BSA, or owned by BSA. Im sure a CE is well aware of this, and isnt remotely concerned. Back in the day we used to make up all kinds of unique recognitions, and some continue to be given to this day. Yea, ok, there has to be a limit to local, non-official, awards, I agree. The line is a simple thing, only official items may be worn on the uniform.

Now, in as far as The Book, its good for young ones who cant reach the table otherwise, starting fires, and one can use it in place of AP paper in a pinch. Safety, liability, and packaging/image of their franchise are the responsibilities of BSA, when they exceed this scope, Its mere suggestion, as authority beyond the described realm resides with the CO, not BSA.

Critter beads, whatever, I'll not be wearing them /rolleyes

Let me first say we are discussing Tomahawk throwing, which does not use hatchets. DO NOT TRY THIS WITH HATCHETTS. Yes, there is a safety concern here, and no BSA has not published a guide specifically for this, that Im aware of. Ive seen, and participated, in hawk throwing at BSA events. I see nothing wrong with it, if handled correctly. I suggest applying the same rules as archery, with the same type of setup, with two exceptions: 1. The target needs to be thick, and sturdy, a cross section of log on legs works well. 2. Spacing, scouts must not be lined up side by side, unless spaced quite far apart. One participant at a time is best, or line up with about 20 feet of spacing between participants.

I strongly suggest using a range for this, the area behind the target needs to be a full no access area, ultimately ending with a hard barrier, or earthen bank. 20 feet, is not enough distance to be safe. I also suggest getting a copy of the guidelines used at the high adventure bases. As far as ages, this is no more dangerous than archery, Id use archery guidelines for age.

This is a fun one, I advise strongly against a knee-jerk reaction. Young men go through a period of questioning everything, its part of the healthy growth process, Id worry if it didnt happen. Ok, your scout likely had a bad experience he equates to his religious beliefs, in all likelihood. Maybe someone close to him passed away, he was forced to miss a ballgame to a church picnic, my maybe he was molested by a member of the clergy! Wow, heres a nasty spectrum of possibilities.

The key here is your scout is upset, that type of answer is very strong, and that is not normal. Typically a youth will hedge on this type of question, trying to not state an opinion, or just say whats expected that didnt happen here. Your scout needs this program, and he needs good role models just now. Dont send him packing, find out whats going on. As leaders we cannot, must not, push our beliefs on others, be careful.

Although the program requires a belief in God, Id give this scout some slack. Who signed his original application, what changed? What do Mom and Dad say about this, do they know? I see a problem here, but maybe not the one you see. Why did he give such a strong answer to an authority figure who he knew would not like it? This young man needs help, and is asking for it. Maybe hes confused; maybe hes questioning blind obedience, or maybe there is a worse problem. Please take the time to find out whats going on, and make sure this young man stays in the program, where hell get what he needs.

The CO may appoint a COR which is not a CO member, and I can see a few reason's they might do this. However, once appointed the COR treats with the Unit, and BSA, with the authority of the CO. I can't imagine a CO placing that kind of trust in just anyone's hands.

The easy way to understand all CO-BSA relationships is to look at them as a franchise relationship, that is not for profit. BSA offers the franchise, the CO agrees to it.

In bad taste would not even cover this. There is a time and place, an Eagle COH is neither.

Again we will have to agree to disagree. Im continually baffled by parents who sign children up for a program seeking the specific benefits it will bring their child, and then act to continually undermine the program. OA leader, no Im not at this time. Yea, I have been, having held adult and youth positions at nearly all levels of the order. I can only assume you are not a member, Im not saying that to be offensive. Theres an element of the program thats hard to put into words, and members understand it, having experienced it, you dont.

This may be my fault, I assumed you were a member. When I get a bit of time Ill see If I can explain what Im saying in a better way. Ive been a member so long that its hard to see it the other way. The odd thing is when I was inducted this type of discussion, or issue never came up. Im not blowing you off, Ive got to hit the road for now. Understand it isnt because we dont care about the scouts that we go to all this effort, and through all this hassle, just the reverse. Were all on the same team, trying to accomplish the same thing, each of us playing different parts trust is a must for the program to work.

Females in the Order of the Arrow? Heres the thing:

I started in Cub Scouts in 1974, I say Cub Scouts, as Tiger Scouts didnt exist then. We had Den Mothers, but the Cub Master , his assistant, and the Webelo Leader were Men. Hey, it was the 70s. Well the times changed, more single parent families, more working moms, women were soon seen in all the cub leadership positions. The late 70s, and early 80s were liberal, soon those female cub leaderss children were Boy Scouts. The moms in many cases knew scouting in ways the dads didnt, and with BSA exploring coed scouting concepts, despite a bit of shock, these female leaders were allowed to step up to the Troops and posts heck, female DEs were popping up.

Ive seen the whole catharsis, I was inducted in 1981 and it was a boys only club!

The first thing that changed it was the professionals, as part of a DEs resume he, or she, needed to show a complete understanding, and involvement with all aspects of the program. This was overlooked for a bit, but then there was a female SE Supreme Chief of the Fire things had to change. ALL professionals were allowed membership, if needed to carry out the responsibility of their position. Originally only the SE could give himself/herself Vigil, but this also changed, and is another topic. Female professional members started appearing in the early 80s.

By the mid to late 80s most troops had a female CC or ASM, very few had a Female SM, but some did. At this point it became clear that barring those leaders from the order was not only counterproductive, but very bad press! Although this change was official, councils, and lodges, were not quick to embrace it. I became inactive for a short period in 1990, and female members were quite rare still. Over time, things have changed. The key here is that the female members are adults, no youth.

In explores we have been coed for many years, but these are youth who are mostly 16 and over. Venture Scouting lowered the coed bar, and in doing so created a coed group which embraces youth of a younger age, and lower maturity level. Venture Scouting requires a very different model, and approach, with lots of additional precautions all of this would come to the order if female Venture Scouts were allowed to be elected. This is a lot of complication, and would further lower the age at which coed scout contact occurs. Twelve-year old OA members are not uncommon, on occasion we get an eleven-year-old. Coed with eleven year olds, is this a good idea? Not only are there program concerns, but what about parents? Parents who put their children in Venture units know what they are getting into. Parents who put their children into Boy Scout units are not signing up for a coed program, and many will object to it. How many summer camps do not allow female Venture Scouts to attend at the same time as Boy Scout units for the same reasons?

BSAs reasons for not allowing female ventures to be elected into the Order of the Arrow, go deeper then what most people posting here are seeing. Boy Scouts coed, I heard that one in the 70s, the 80s, and the 90s, and each had a grain of truth (see above), but it was never that simple. A blanket change like this will cause a huge backlash from families, and will never happen in my lifetime.

Secret, not really, thats an intentional illusion. The mystique lent by the air of secrecy is very attractive to boys, its just that simple. What an inexpensive, and effective, motivation. The biggest issue today is people undermining the order by trying to strip away this powerful illusion. If you are an adult, and want to know, ask. You will be given your answers; its that easy. Just dont ruin it for these young men.

SeattlePioneer, I respect you, and your opinion, but can't agree with you. I can't see the violation, the simple truth is just that. I will say education is a strong tool, and should be the primary item used to discourage. If you explain the why, most often parents will back off.

Thanks desertrat77, I'm glad I'm not alone in my views. I've remained mostly inactive in the order since my return, but just fired off an email to our newly minted advisor, who is gung ho about getting things on track, offering to help. I won't complain and not offer to help.